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blankseplocked Attributes OCD alert -> 20/20/20/20/19 = bad ; 20/20/20/20/20 = good !
 
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:11:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 29/11/2010 14:31:10
_

Before the change, you had a max of (39 base + 25 basics + 25 advanceds + 25 implants)*1.1 learning = 125.4 maximum total possible.
After the change, you will have 39+60 = 99 base + 25 implants = 124 max total, or an overall loss of 1.4 attribute points.
Even if you ignore the skill that very few people train to L5, Presence, that's still a loss of 0.3 attribute points.

Ok, it's not a big drop (barely over 1% at a maximum and negligible for long-term "sensible" plans), but its still a drop nevertheless.

...

IMO, they should have only removed the 10 attribute-based learnings and added 10 to each basic value, but left the "learning" skill in place (the only "oddball" one), and nothing would be different at all. MOST of the learning skills would be gone, and the only remaining one would be easily trained.

Even more alternatively, yeah, go ahead with your plan, but also give us all an extra free remap and 2 unassigned attribute points, for +0.6 total additional max attribute points. I'd like that more.

Or, heck, just ONE extra, and dump it (temporarily) into charisma.
That's only 0.4 loss at max possible attribute total potential (which is still not quite ok, but meh, that I can easily live with, even if I am almost done training even that now-completely-useless skill), and actually a 0.7 gain compared to "all L5 except L4 Presence" learning plans.
That would render the starting player attributes 20/20/20/20/20 instead of the "proposed" 20/20/20/20/19cha.
It makes far more sense that way.


DEAR NON-CAREFUL READERS, I am not complaining the learning skills get removed.
What I am drawing attention to is the fine-tuning of the added attributes.


Make new players start at 20/20/20/20/20 instead of 20/20/20/20/19.

In other words, I ask at least for one extra base attribute point for everybody, for 100 base attribute total instead of 99, so that the maximum possible will be not just 124, but 125, closer to the old possible maximum of 125.4

MY OCD DEMANDS IT !!!
___

ANOTHER POSSIBLE SOLUTION : Boost attribute gains from implants by 10% too !
So a "+1" attribute would actually grant +1.1 (like it used to), and a "+5" would grant +5.5
Or at least by 6% (so 1.06, 2.12, 3.18, 4.24 and 5.3).
... but that wouldn't satisfy the OCD tendencies, so screw it.

___

Originally by: Anubis Xian
I support this... why isn't it in Assembly Hall? I want to check the little thumbs up box!

The funny thing is, this was already voted for in the CSM.
It already made the list, and it was already presented to CCP.
To be even more accurate, this here is just a PORTION of what the CSM has asked for.
A mere third, to be more precise.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Modify_or_Remove_Learning_Skills_(CSM)
What the CSM asked for was not only 100 attribute points total (with 15 instead of 14 remappable), but also the ability to push one extra point in the max attribute (to match the current max 33 in highest attribute, so instead of max 27 base, making it max 28 base) AND one bonus free remap for everybody.
___

Another alternative would be to only remove 10 of the 11 learning skills (those related to attributes) and leaving "Learning" itself in play, but granting it to L5 for everybody from character creation (and to everybody else that doesn't already have it to L5), and only increasing base attributes by 10 instead of 12.

Or even simpler... add just +10 to all base attributes BUT also change the SP gain formula from (Main+Sec/2)*60 SP/hour to *66 SP/hour.
This would most accurately mirror the current situation while removing all traces of learning skills.

Rethguad Lamina
Innovative Initiatives Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:16:00 - [2]
 

This is an outrage.

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:16:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Ok, it's not a big drop (barely over 1% at a maximum and negligible for long-term "sensible" plans), but its still a drop nevertheless.


If this is the worst problem Eve's facing, we're doing pretty good tbh.

Grace Downfall
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:18:00 - [4]
 

Storm in a teacup.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:20:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 25/11/2010 13:20:58
Originally by: Wadaya
The change wil give me : -.8 int, -.3 perc +.2 char -.2 will -.3 mem
But I still can't fix that with a remap because , hey, I'm AchuraCrying or Very sad

For me, compared to 7 hours from now when the last possible learning finishes, it's -0.4 in each attribute except charisma (-1.6 total), and a +0.2 in charisma which I seldom use anyway.

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
If this is the worst problem Eve's facing, we're doing pretty good tbh.

It's the most recently announced minor problem associated with an upcoming change, no more, no less.
And one that could be eliminated (or even turned into a bonus) with a minor adjustment to the announced plans.
Call it "a good will gesture" in case they decide to correct this minor nuisance.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:21:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Zagdul on 25/11/2010 13:21:54
I never had V's in all learning as I skimped on Charisma skills.

I'm loving this change as I'm gaining a few points.

Sorry for people who trained all V's in learning. Great for the majority of players who did basically what I did.

EDIT: When training a skill, you're only using 2 attributes. Work around your remaps and plan ahead for a year.


Mikael Izra'il
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:22:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Mikael Izra''il on 25/11/2010 13:22:05

I'm not going to do number crunching but I'm pretty sure the reimbursed skillpoints needed for the fifth level of Presence alone will make up for all the time you'd earn in charisma-based skills thanks to that attribute point.

Sofia Roseburn
Caldari
Lone Star Exploration
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:22:00 - [8]
 

I fully agree with you and shall be cancelling my 34 accounts forthwith.

Wait, no I won't. CCP have done p. damn well here, so there's nothing to complain about.

Well...there is, but you'd need to talk to someone about boosting Amarr.

Terminal Insanity
Minmatar
Convex Enterprises
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:23:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Akita T
but left the "learning" skill in place (the only "oddball" one), and nothing would be different at all.


If they left that one in, it would still mean players spend time training a skill that gives them zero gameplay benifit.

The learning skills were killing a lot of newbie subscribers IMO, because they were basically told they couldnt play the game untill they spent a month training skills that got them no new guns, ships, or gameplay

Completely removing every last one = huge win for everyone. There are a million different ways to do it, and honestly i think they picked the best method. There are very, very few people who will be shafted (and those who are, it is very, very minimal)

Overall, most players will be training skills FASTER due to the fact most people didnt lvl5 all their learning skills.

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:25:00 - [10]
 

Akita T, good that you're keeping CCP sharp, but...cry me a river Razz

When I started I'd gladly have given 10% of my future max attrib points to save me 3 months of learning stupid learning skills.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:26:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Mikael Izra'il
I'm not going to do number crunching but I'm pretty sure the reimbursed skillpoints needed for the fifth level of Presence alone will make up for all the time you'd earn in charisma-based skills thanks to that attribute.

Training Presence to L5 was never really feasible anyway. There simply weren't enough charisma-based skills to make it worth training.
But you never know WHEN they'll introduce new skills with charisma in it.

Besides, what makes more sense, new players starting with 20 in all attributes except charisma which starts at 19 in the planned changes, or just giving all new players 20 in each attribute flat ?

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:26:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Terminal Insanity
Overall, most players will be training skills FASTER due to the fact most people didnt lvl5 all their learning skills.



this.

it will benefit people that have up to 5/4 learning skills + learning 5 which is pretty much nearly everyone.

irion felpamy
Minmatar
Assisted Genocide
Unprovoked Aggression
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:27:00 - [13]
 

Proof some people will complain about anything.

Mikael Izra'il
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:27:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Akita T

Besides, what makes more sense, new players starting with 20 in all attributes except charisma which starts at 19 in the planned changes, or just giving all new players 20 in each attribute flat ?



It's common knowledge that EvE players are uncharismatic jerks Twisted Evil.

fivetide humidyear
Gallente
Fool Mental Junket
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:32:00 - [15]
 

::drama llama::

not sure this even counts as a storm in a tea cup

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:32:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 25/11/2010 13:32:11
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
honestly i think they picked the best method

NOT the best method.
One of the best, but not the absolute best.
With a tad bit more fine-tuning, it could become THE best.

DEAR NON-CAREFUL READERS, I am not complaining the learning skills get removed.
What I am drawing attention to is the fine-tuning of the added attributes.


Make new players start at 20/20/20/20/20 instead of 20/20/20/20/19.

In other words, I ask at least for one extra base attribute point for everybody, for 100 base attribute total instead of 99, so that the maximum possible will be not just 124, but 125, closer to the old possible maximum of 125.4

MY OCD DEMANDS IT !!!
Twisted Evil

Oregon 9
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:32:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Zagdul
Edited by: Zagdul on 25/11/2010 13:21:54
Sorry for people who trained all V's in learning. Great for the majority of players who did basically what I did.

I'm not sorry! Very Happy For every skill that uses charisma since I trained it to 5 (which is basically when I started out) I've trained that little bit faster than everyone else, and now I get that 630k sp back for free to put into anything I choose!

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:34:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Zagdul on 25/11/2010 13:35:28
Linkage

Originally by: Rick Rothsar
Someone said they're losing 640k SP training per year under the new plan.

640k SP / 5m SP reimbursement (recovered SP previously tied up in learning skills) = 7.8 YEARS before you actually lose SP over what your current SP pace.

I certainly hope you're not butthurt over how much SP your character is going to be losing starting in September of 2018.


EDIT: I read, I'm just pointing this out for the people who wish to complain.

Lana Torrin
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:35:00 - [19]
 

3/10.. A bit predictable but well timed and first in what I believe will be many. The bolded coloured text at the bottom is a bit of a give away though.

Glonn
Amarr
APEX ARDENT COALITION
C0NVICTED
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:37:00 - [20]
 

How many of us even use charisma..

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:38:00 - [21]
 

What they did was neat and simple. As long as they nail the execution, I do not mind the fact that it'll take people longer to get the skills I already have.

Carry on CCP, I approve your implementation (I read the blog, my concerns were quashed).

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:38:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 25/11/2010 13:32:11
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
honestly i think they picked the best method

NOT the best method.
One of the best, but not the absolute best.
With a tad bit more fine-tuning, it could become THE best.

DEAR NON-CAREFUL READERS, I am not complaining the learning skills get removed.
What I am drawing attention to is the fine-tuning of the added attributes.


Make new players start at 20/20/20/20/20 instead of 20/20/20/20/19.

In other words, I ask at least for one extra base attribute point for everybody, for 100 base attribute total instead of 99, so that the maximum possible will be not just 124, but 125, closer to the old possible maximum of 125.4

MY OCD DEMANDS IT !!!
Twisted Evil
oh fine, I agree with you on that single point.

happy?Razz

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:41:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 25/11/2010 13:41:24
Originally by: Glonn
How many of us even use charisma..

That's the point, I am NOT using it in spite of just finishing up training for the L5 in the advanced charisma learning that I was fully aware it's pointless to train. My OCD also demanded that, being the only non-L5 skill in learning for so long.
Yet the current proposed changes, when implemented, will INCREASE my charisma by yet another 0.2 and in return remove 0.4 from each of my other attributes.
Twisted Evil

Originally by: Grimpak
oh fine, I agree with you on that single point. happy?Razz

That was my only somewhat serious point, so, yeah, not unhappy Razz

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:50:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Grimpak
oh fine, I agree with you on that single point. happy?Razz

That was my only somewhat serious point, so, yeah, not unhappy Razz
Razz

Kaar
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:51:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: irion felpamy
Proof some people will complain about anything.


Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:53:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Kaar
Proof some people will complain about anything.

You must be new to the internets. Welcome. Laughing

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:55:00 - [27]
 

I agree it should be 20/20/20/20/20.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:57:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Mag's
I agree it should be 20/20/20/20/20.

Hooray, convert #2 \o/

Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:02:00 - [29]
 


It amounts to a drop of 72sp per hour, 600k sp per year for a min/max remap.
its a minimal loss that 99.9% of players will barely even notice.

Plan what your gonna do with the extra sp your have for redistribution and be happy.

Chrysalis D'lilth
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:07:00 - [30]
 

Someone was going to post a thread about this - may as well of been Akita :)


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