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Tather Demaleon
Posted - 2010.11.25 12:02:00 - [1]
 

Just like to say thanks to the CSM who helped making this happen.

woot!

iluvtogank
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:21:00 - [2]
 

THANKS ALOT CSM FOR SCREWING WITH THE VETSEvil or Very Mad

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:38:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: iluvtogank
THANKS ALOT CSM FOR SCREWING WITH THE VETSEvil or Very Mad

With multiple chars at 90m+ SP I'm considering myself a vet and I approve of this change.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:04:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: iluvtogank
THANKS ALOT CSM FOR SCREWING WITH THE VETS


While I still think that the skills should not have been removed, the CSM deserves major congratulations for making sure that as long as it was going to happen, that it happened well and fairly. Not only are vets not screwed over, we're insanely boosted.

My main account will have 4,743,765 sp to redistribute. My main alt will have 4,111,530 sp to redistribute. My secondary alts will also all have a bunch. Honestly, the only way I'm at all put out by this is the fact that I just respeced for 1-year plans on all my characters and if I'd known that I could knock out that many SP's over night, I would've planned differently.

As it is, my only actual concerns are whether or not I boost skills that I was planning for in the next year and then try to find other skills that use the same primary/secondary attribute, and if not which skills do I take. (Dreads are soooo 2009, so I'm not sure that Amarr Dread V is in the cards, for example and I already have a Nyx on my alt so I don't know if I need to skill for it on my main too, and...)

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.25 18:12:00 - [5]
 

I have it worse than you, Finn. I made my yearly plan just before CCP told CSM what they were going to do, and felt obligated to not act on the inside info (and save myself a day or two over the next year). So I respec'd. I'm too honest to be a good politician, I guess. Very Happy

My personal plan is to do SP arbitrage (train high-rate learning skills until the change, spend the points on stuff that would train the most slowly), and keep some points in my hip-pocket for doing things like training for the latest FOTM ships.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.26 06:06:00 - [6]
 

I was just about to make this very topic.

Cheers, CSM.

AterraX
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.26 17:45:00 - [7]
 

Could we get a list of the CSM members who supported this removal...so I know whom NOT to vote for? :)

Zantsekuken
Gallente
Brotherhood of Nod
Posted - 2010.11.26 18:31:00 - [8]
 

Well, it was all sudden for me. I was ratting happily for security increse, then my friend told me: They are deleting learning skills completely soon! OMGWTFBBQAREUSANE?
But hey, i will get the sp to redistibute, right? Cool! i will finally get HAC 5 and maybe some gunnery skill as well. You can't really say that you wasted time back then...
Screw this, i don't care if newbies will get their skills and ships faster. Good hardware won't make them good pilots anyway. Am i feeling bad? Nope, i'm not angry at all for this decision. I have a 50m sp charcater, active more or less since 2007, i was buying the advanced skillbooks one by one and then train hard, but hey, everything changes, right? Vets did it the hard way, yes, but now you have about 5m sp to train anything you still don't have :D It's basically for nothing, you never lost anything and your attributes will even rise a small bit if i recall.
For me it's the same as align problem. I remember lessons at the academy about align and training with warping the fleet. Now? We have that damn Align button and suddenly it's not that 'hardcore' anymore.

John Zorg
Caldari
The Damned Legion
Posted - 2010.11.26 21:49:00 - [9]
 

This is in no way to really help the player. Most players that stuck through those training times were the players that were looking for a challenge and a game that required dedication. CCP is playing the poletition card, we promise and deliver something that looks good to the gamers but back at the ranch there is a behind the scene motive.

It makes sense though from a business perspective for CCP. What better way to get more subscribers. More subscribers mean more revenue.

The more you can dumb down the game the more people you will attract and the more revenue CCP makes. The down side of this strategy is that your retention will more than likely be a lot less. Simple business mechanics ;) Soon you will be able to join a fleet and go watch TV. :S

So... to sum up. Game development has changed over the years from... "We are passionate about the game we make" to "We are passionate about finding new ways we can make more income".

Sad but it's clearly true...

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.11.27 09:06:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: AterraX
Could we get a list of the CSM members who supported this removal...so I know whom NOT to vote for? :)


http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CSM_Meeting_Minutes_5.006_raw_log

Vuk Lau NO
T'Amber NO
Meissa Anunthiel YES
Trebor Daehdoow YES
Korvin NO
TeaDaze NO
Mynxee YES
Sokratesz YES
Dierdra Vaal YES

Not too happy with CCP's decision, but we can all recognize the barriers being put up to new players.

With the removal of the learning skills, the pace of the game will be further stepped up (remap was the first step) as the environment will further encourage multi-accounting & alt specialization. I'm sure they're a lot of veterans out there positively drooling on the possibilities that this opens up (read Malcanis's Law). At the same time, it removes a portion of your emotional attachment to your character that was partly defined the amount of investment that you put into the learning skills. Now each character is trivial.

As for the CSM, several members have been a positive influence to the whole group. I'd like to see that maintained to keep the culture going (as I don't think it's sensible to decide on votes based on a single outcome). The pro-learning skills people lost a battle but the war between complexity vs dumb-down to WoW lvl is still ongoing. It is a good thing as it keeps both sides of the fence honest.

Cyprus Black
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.11.27 18:11:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: AterraX
Could we get a list of the CSM members who supported this removal...so I know whom NOT to vote for? :)
Can we get a list of schools you attended... so we know who failed you?

Xultanic
Posted - 2010.12.03 13:44:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Xultanic on 03/12/2010 13:45:32
So it seems some people think that the learning skills add 'complexity' to Eve. No, not really. They just add a timesink. I've been playing for 3 years, so I'm not quite an 'old and bitter vet', but I've got 3 accounts, one of which does have ALL learning skills at 5. You know what? I'm GLAD they took them out. As it's been stated time and time again, learning skills put new people off of Eve, because they were told that these skills would save them days, months, of training time down the road. So instead of training up skills to be able to do something other than noobship mine, they trained learning. Then they got bored and left. Not because of the complexity, but because of the learning skills.

And forgive me if I'm wrong, but last time I checked CCP wasn't listed as a non-profit organization. They can be passionate about the game, but still want to make money. And you should want them to make money too!

More money = more budget = more staff / spiffy anti-lag hardware/software = more new features / people available to REVIEW AND FIX OLD FEATURES / quality stuff = BETTER EVE.

EDIT: Just noticed I necroposted, but that shows how often I post on the forums. : /

Owledge
Posted - 2010.12.04 17:34:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Xultanic
Edited by: Xultanic on 03/12/2010 13:45:32
So it seems some people think that the learning skills add 'complexity' to Eve. No, not really. They just add a timesink. I've been playing for 3 years, so I'm not quite an 'old and bitter vet', but I've got 3 accounts, one of which does have ALL learning skills at 5. You know what? I'm GLAD they took them out. As it's been stated time and time again, learning skills put new people off of Eve, because they were told that these skills would save them days, months, of training time down the road. So instead of training up skills to be able to do something other than noobship mine, they trained learning. Then they got bored and left. Not because of the complexity, but because of the learning skills.

And forgive me if I'm wrong, but last time I checked CCP wasn't listed as a non-profit organization. They can be passionate about the game, but still want to make money. And you should want them to make money too!

More money = more budget = more staff / spiffy anti-lag hardware/software = more new features / people available to REVIEW AND FIX OLD FEATURES / quality stuff = BETTER EVE.

EDIT: Just noticed I necroposted, but that shows how often I post on the forums. : /


I highlighted the core of the problem. Now learning skills are removed because new players are told unwise things. And there must be many old players who don't understand the learning skills. Also, when I hear players who don't train the learning skills will not be "competitive", I wonder whether EVE is a race to the death. (!) How can someone put so much pressure on himself or others?

About CCP I just want to mention that it's a bit ironic considering how people react to profit-oriented decisions by CCP while the game world itself is massively based on that. ;) Not that I defend this, but it should not be too big of a surprise.

Two comments about the learning skills:
1) I figured out quickly that they really accelerate training overall when you train them one level below the other skills that you're planning to train. My feeling and personal preferences signaled me to not train them higher. I just do what I feel like and what won't spoil the fun.

2) Correct me if I made a logical mistake here, but it seems ironic: The players that have the greatest disadvantages are the new ones. First, when you create a new character now after the books have been removed, it is slower than ever. Second, the 100% speed bonus for new players is removed, right? This should be compensated quite accurately by the +12 to every attribute. BUT what new players don't have anymore is the option of adding roughly +2 to every attribute in a tiny amount of time.
I've created an alt just before the books were removed, and luckily I found most of the skill books on the market (but more expensive of course).
New players being subject to this disadvantage might use up their free remaps more aggressively.


 

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