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Makko Gray
Pheno-Tech Industries
Crimson Wings.
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:09:00 - [181]
 

Awesome stuff! Not only will I train skills quicker but I'll also get around 6mil across my alts to fast forward training plans a little.

All in all a plan with no drawbacks, at least not for my anyway. Laughing

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:10:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: Xodarapmis
I've only been playing for 3 weeks. Based on my own judgement, I decided to concentrate on developing learning skills first.

I'm happy that the SP I spent will be refunded because it represents 988K out of 1.4M I've spent so far.

What I am not happy about, is that I've spent 9.2M ISK on these skills and it appears I won't be reimbursed for them. For characters that have played a while, this probably doesn't seem like much. But for me it represents about 75-85% of all the ISK I've made to this date.

I feel like I've wasted 3 weeks worth of missions with nothing much to show for it. My initial time that came with the game is almost up and I'm now reconsidering whether to subscribe.

I realise that you don't want to inject 1.6? 16? Trillion ISK into the economy and that it is difficult to draw a line if you reimburse some but not others. But for those of us where it represents such an enormous percentage of earnings to date, I would ask you to consider an equitible solution.

Many thanks.
SimParadox

Keep your head up dude. This means you'll be able to reallocate those skills into something that will allow you to make ISK faster.

:)

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:10:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: RM Odrade
How long will we have to redistribute the SP? I am still saving up for all of the books needed to get into a carrier and even though 5.7M SP isn't a WHOLE lot, it's gonna be a nice start down that training path.

They are yours. No timeframe defined.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:12:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Learning skills were never interesting they were a pointless metagaming mechanic that added nothing to the game. Learning them was complete balls, but completely necessary in order not to make the rest of the skill system balls as well. Now that they're gone, the skill system is all interesting and automatically non-ball:y again.
Can I have some of what you are smoking?

Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:12:00 - [185]
 

That got to be the first time I aggree 100% with a feature design and its implementation. In almost 5 years...

Wadaya
Trailerpark Industries
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:13:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Figures.
Just as I have ~8 hours left to finishing the last of my L5 learning skill, the news hits Laughing

I'm a tiny bit miffed at the chosen addition value, 12 to each attribute.

Before the change, you had a max of (39 base + 25 basics + 25 advanceds + 25 implants)*1.1 learning = 125.4 max total.
After the change, you will have 39+60=99 base + 25 implants = 124 max total, or an overall loss of 1.4 attribute points.
Ok, it's not a HUGE drop, but its still a drop nevertheless.

IMO, they should have only removed the 10 attribute-based learnings and added 10 to each basic value, but left the "learning" skill in place (the only "oddball" one).
OR, they could add 12 to each attribute and give us 2 freely distributable unassigned attribute points (for a grand total of +0.6 max attribute points).

...

Oh well. Not like we could do much about it.


The change wil give me : -.8 int, -.3 perc +.2 char -.2 will -.3 mem
But I still can't fix that with a remap because , hey, I'm AchuraCrying or Very sad

Tereliss Verr
Minmatar
Space Tech Solutions
PHOENIX REPUBLIC
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:13:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: Xodarapmis
I've only been playing for 3 weeks. Based on my own judgement, I decided to concentrate on developing learning skills first.

I'm happy that the SP I spent will be refunded because it represents 988K out of 1.4M I've spent so far.

What I am not happy about, is that I've spent 9.2M ISK on these skills and it appears I won't be reimbursed for them. For characters that have played a while, this probably doesn't seem like much. But for me it represents about 75-85% of all the ISK I've made to this date.

I feel like I've wasted 3 weeks worth of missions with nothing much to show for it. My initial time that came with the game is almost up and I'm now reconsidering whether to subscribe.

I realise that you don't want to inject 1.6? 16? Trillion ISK into the economy and that it is difficult to draw a line if you reimburse some but not others. But for those of us where it represents such an enormous percentage of earnings to date, I would ask you to consider an equitible solution.

Many thanks.
SimParadox



That sucks to be fair, but you will be able to make that and so much more back even quicker, those of us that have been playing longer have invested 100's of millions isk into our learning skills and we will not get that back eithier but you will find if you continue to play this game (which I hope you do) that for ever possitive there is a negative effect in this game, which in turn makes EvE so much more interesting than any other game out there because you have to work so much harder.
Stick with it and I doubt that you will be disapointed.

Fly safe TV

Ozlyn
Minmatar
AP Solutions
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:14:00 - [188]
 

Edited by: Ozlyn on 25/11/2010 13:14:25
Thank you for your continuing efforts on a great game CCP.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:15:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Before the change, you had a max of (39 base + 25 basics + 25 advanceds + 25 implants)*1.1 learning = 125.4 max total.


Could I please have some of your logic? It's delicious.
You can't count all attributes in one sac, as only two of them are used to train any present skill.

P.S.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1420510&page=5#149

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2010.11.25 13:15:00 - [190]
 

Originally by: Superform
Edited by: Superform on 25/11/2010 12:41:19
graph one is not working, the skills needed dont jump.. but the line does.. please explain

edit.. i'll explain a bit more, the number of skill points to fly a drake well or good should be a constant.. in the 3rd line it isnt..


The third line in the first graph has ~500k SP in learning trained up front, which don't help you fly a Drake in the slightest. (Which is why we're removing them.)

Originally by: Carniflex
I have seen it asked few times, but no answer so far. What about those with base charisma 3 currently. Will all characters be converted into 20/20/20/20/19 or will we keep current base attributes and just get +12 added to each one we currently have ?


We're just adding 12 to all, so your base charisma will bump up to 15.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:16:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Wadaya
Originally by: Akita T
Figures.
Just as I have ~8 hours left to finishing the last of my L5 learning skill, the news hits Laughing

I'm a tiny bit miffed at the chosen addition value, 12 to each attribute.

Before the change, you had a max of (39 base + 25 basics + 25 advanceds + 25 implants)*1.1 learning = 125.4 max total.
After the change, you will have 39+60=99 base + 25 implants = 124 max total, or an overall loss of 1.4 attribute points.
Ok, it's not a HUGE drop, but its still a drop nevertheless.

IMO, they should have only removed the 10 attribute-based learnings and added 10 to each basic value, but left the "learning" skill in place (the only "oddball" one).
OR, they could add 12 to each attribute and give us 2 freely distributable unassigned attribute points (for a grand total of +0.6 max attribute points).

...

Oh well. Not like we could do much about it.


The change wil give me : -.8 int, -.3 perc +.2 char -.2 will -.3 mem
But I still can't fix that with a remap because , hey, I'm AchuraCrying or Very sad


For me, -0.4 in each attribute except charisma (-1.6), in which I get +0.2... bleah.

Versuvius Marii
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:16:00 - [192]
 

Absolute win. Now to pick which ship I would like to insta-train for... I'm thinking Thanny! :D

Red lensman
Gallente
BlackSky inc.
Vanguard.
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:17:00 - [193]
 

Edited by: Red lensman on 25/11/2010 13:18:22
attribute booster's are getting a nerf as they used to get effected by the learning lv5 skill so a +4 implant used to give a +4.4 boost. so all implants should really given
a 10% boost to make up for the loss of the skill, or give 10 pounts and leave the lv5 learning skill boost running

I'thari
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:17:00 - [194]
 

Edited by: I''thari on 25/11/2010 13:21:38
Originally by: Othran
In general its a positive move and long overdue.

I haven't done the numbers yet but I have a gut feeling that if you've maxed out a single attribute (through remapping) for a specific training plan then you're going to be training slower. If my gut feeling is right then you might want to consider either a free remap or a remap on petition.

That's about the only criticism I have.
I did:

8 base + 10 learning + 5 implant = 23 (at told in devblog)

so 10% out of that is 2.3 (which is bonus of fully trained "learning skill") and they add 2 instead.


Now, if you remap you'll have:

15 base + 10 learning + 5 implant = 30... so, you basicly lose 1 in your main attribute (CCP added 2 attribute points to compencate for "learning" skill, but in this case you'd have 3).

secondary attribute will have: 9 base + 10 learning + 5 implant = 24

so basicly lose 0.2 more to your "main" attribute (because secondary contributes only half as good)


conclusion: you lose traning speed compared to 1.2 of your main attribute in best-case scenario (close to 3% slower traning time, 1 attribute point loss is a bit more than 2.5%)


Ofc it's better if you don't have +5s, but this level of "learning" skill bonus is same as if you had 4/3 learning skills and no implants - only then learing 5 gives you same bonus as 2 primary and 2 secondary attributes if you remap for a skill.

I'ts not as bad as traning with 4/3 learnings and with no implants, ofc, but still a bit slower than it's possible right now.... somehting compared to having 5/4 skills now instead of 5/5 (both with +5 implants).

5/5 learnings and +5 implants will give you somehting compared to having 45 points in main attribute, while now you get 45.7 with 5/4 learnings and +5 implants.

edit: spellcheck and minor editing

thatbloke
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:19:00 - [195]
 

Something I haven't seen asked yet: is there some limit (time, or otherwise) on when these refunded SPs have to be used by? I'm thinking here in terms of inactive accounts - i have a friend with about 3mil SP in learning whose account is currently inactive, will he need to activate his account to get this benefit and will there be any kind of time limit on having to redeem the points we are refunded?

Vanilkin
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:20:00 - [196]
 

U want to say, that a miner, that was learning all industrial and other unneeded skills in PVP in a matter of seconds will become a perfect milf pilot? Hell no!
We were growing alts for special purposes, paying money for them for years while they were just training... Lots of veterans did that to train chars for milfs and titans.
U need to choose in EVE, whom U are going to be, and U do this in the beginning of Eve.

I understand, this was made intentionally for Darwin-type guys, who had SP everywhere and nothing at 5.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:20:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: Xodarapmis
I feel like I've wasted 3 weeks worth of missions with nothing much to show for it. My initial time that came with the game is almost up and I'm now reconsidering whether to subscribe.

I realise that you don't want to inject 1.6? 16? Trillion ISK into the economy and that it is difficult to draw a line if you reimburse some but not others. But for those of us where it represents such an enormous percentage of earnings to date, I would ask you to consider an equitible solution.



I think this is a valid concern. Advanced learning skills represent a huge expense to genuinely new characters which they could better use on ships and equipment.

Some latitude should be allowed here - eg allow refund of isk costs to players under 2 months old who have advanced learning skills injected. They haven't had the benefit of them in any way.

On the flipside you're going to get the double-speed training and get the skillpoints refunded.

Tom Aran
Caldari
Virtual Democracy
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:20:00 - [198]
 

Well I must say, what a splendid idea.
Good work chaps !

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:21:00 - [199]
 

Originally by: Red lensman
attribute booster's are getting a nerf as they used to get effected by the learning lv5 skill so a +4 implant used to give a +4.4 boost. so all implants should really given
a 10% boost to make up for the loss of the skill, or give 10 pounts and leave the lv5 learning skill boost running


You want to train EVEN faster? You'll be training faster anyway, unless you've had +10 from skills.

Ophelia Ursus
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:21:00 - [200]
 

Shocked

...CCP Victor?

Akrasjel Lanate
Gallente
Naquatech Conglomerate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:22:00 - [201]
 

We this is a very interesting change...Razz

Jade Mandukar
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:22:00 - [202]
 

So what about those that are selling and buying characters?

Maxed learning skills are worth s&%t now right? What about those that bought through the official processes defined by CCP? We buy maxed toons for what, 2.5 Billion? Do we get re-embursed for that?

Why id it necessary to cater to noob players? This is freakin' EVE, not WoW dudes! People play this game because it IS hard, it DOES take long, and it's a true ADULT game. So are we going to see the children flock in next because they can quickly jump in a crusier or battleship and still flock into the rookie channel stating "How do I move my ship?"

This is a grown up game for grown up people...if the kiddies behave as they do now (I say that with some reservation), make em' skill up like the rest of us suffered. Why can every person be equal in learning to the rest of us that worked our cracks off to achieve that through solid investment of TIME.

TIME is the element that is both priceless and irreplaceable. Did we (CCP/CSM) now try to put a price on that??????

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2010.11.25 13:23:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: Xodarapmis
I've only been playing for 3 weeks. Based on my own judgement, I decided to concentrate on developing learning skills first.

I'm happy that the SP I spent will be refunded because it represents 988K out of 1.4M I've spent so far.

What I am not happy about, is that I've spent 9.2M ISK on these skills and it appears I won't be reimbursed for them. For characters that have played a while, this probably doesn't seem like much. But for me it represents about 75-85% of all the ISK I've made to this date.

I feel like I've wasted 3 weeks worth of missions with nothing much to show for it. My initial time that came with the game is almost up and I'm now reconsidering whether to subscribe.

I realise that you don't want to inject 1.6? 16? Trillion ISK into the economy and that it is difficult to draw a line if you reimburse some but not others. But for those of us where it represents such an enormous percentage of earnings to date, I would ask you to consider an equitible solution.

Many thanks.
SimParadox



We did anticipate that there'd be a small group of people who'd be in this position and have this reaction. We'd liked to have made this change more intuitively beneficial for people in your position, but it's one of the things that we just didn't have time for.

I say "intuitively beneficial", because on my math at least you're still better off after the change than before it, in terms of just your own progression and wealth. Before the change you shelled out 9.2M ISK and expected to be getting what, 28-33 attribute points out of that in exchange for a month or so's training. After the change in your position, you've shelled out 9.2M ISK, you're getting 60 attribute points and your net training investment in them is zero. By Jan 1st you'll be in a much better position with the change than without the change.

On the flipside, I'm guessing you feel somewhat cheated out of the money, because if you'd known this earlier, you would have the same advantages in a month's time without having spent the money for it. That does kinda suck, and we're sorry that's happened to a few people.

Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:23:00 - [204]
 

truly epic moment. may the fortune favor the bold and fate helps us all. :)

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:24:00 - [205]
 

\o/



I can't wait to find out what the other surprise is going to be.

Dirk Smacker
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:24:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Some quick number crunching for everyone curious.

Present:
Maximum attainable effective attribute value (primary): 33pt.
Maximum attainable effective attribute value (secondary): 26.4pt.
Maximum effective learning speed, thus: 2772 SP/hour.
Efficiency of implants (+5 assuming top skills and optimal remap): 1.217391
Efficiency of a remap (minmax): 1.4

Future (bright or not - decide...):
Maximum attainable effective attribute value (primary): 32pt.
Maximum attainable effective attribute value (secondary): 26pt.
Maximum effective learning speed, thus: 2700 SP/hour.
Efficiency of implants (+5 assuming...): 1.2
Efficiency of a remap (minmax): 1.(36)

I hope this is right. I've been training up an alt for two weeks with max intelligence. 32 is as high as I can get with 5/5 skills and +5 implant. Just wish I had gone with the +5 INT implant freakin ten hours ago instead of the MEM to train up the advanced skill to 5.

Publius Valerius
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:25:00 - [207]
 

I love it... just awesome... Thx CCP

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2010.11.25 13:25:00 - [208]
 

Originally by: thatbloke
Something I haven't seen asked yet: is there some limit (time, or otherwise) on when these refunded SPs have to be used by? I'm thinking here in terms of inactive accounts - i have a friend with about 3mil SP in learning whose account is currently inactive, will he need to activate his account to get this benefit and will there be any kind of time limit on having to redeem the points we are refunded?


As per the reimbursement EVElopedia article linked from the blog, "Please note: Free skill points do not expire."

Aeo IV
Amarr
Xomic OmniCorporation
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:26:00 - [209]
 

I feel bad that I spent 80m on learning skills to alts just a month or two ago

But I feel good that I'm getting a bunch of points and attribute points.

I am an emotional huricane

Hugo Syrus
Caldari
BZ night Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:27:00 - [210]
 

AWESOME!!!


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