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Symlin Raahn
Gallente
Killer Koalas
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2010.12.15 22:10:00 - [1981]
 

Edited by: Symlin Raahn on 15/12/2010 22:16:35
I don't mind CCP getting rid of the Learning Skills.

For those of us that have (had) characters with all Learning Skills at level V, I don't think it is fair how it was done, nor how we supposedly are being "reimbursed."

At this exact point in time (after the update), the skill I am training would have taken me 7 days, 47 minutes to finish before the Learning Skill books removal. With the change it will now take me 7 days, 6 hours, and 21 minutes to finish

-- an additional 5 hours and 34 minutes.

That sucks!


It sucks even more that this increased learning time is going to be the case for me for all my training in the future.

CCP says I am being 'reimbursed' for the actual skill points in Learning Skills. True. But that is NOT a total of what those points truly cost me and what I have invested in them.

I am NOT being reimbursed minute for minute for the time it took me to learn all the Learning Skills to level V. (These learning sills were not learned at a rate comparable to having all learning at level V, because that is what was training. I am not being reimbursed for that time spent training them, even though I am getting the points.)

I am not being reimbursed for the cost of the skill books. (CCP has come up with some BS about me getting use out of the books and dismissed this point out of hand.)

I am not being reimbursed for the game time it took me to earn the isk to buy the Learning Skill books -- mining hours on end, etc. If I would have spent that time earning the isk, and the isk itself on other books, I would still have the books. Right? To me, it seems the Learning Skill books have almost been stolen from me.

CCP. If you make changes like this, at least don't screw some of your customers.

I would bet most of your customers with all learning at level V are/were some of your loyalist customers, and you have, therefore, found a way to take advantage of that loyalty.

You certainly did not reward that loyalty.

I am very disappointed.

Symlin

Symlin Raahn
Gallente
Killer Koalas
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2010.12.16 01:48:00 - [1982]
 

P.S. Next year may I please have the option to pass on the Christmas present?

Thx!

Merry Christmas

JcJet
Caldari
Pretenders Inc
W-Space
Posted - 2010.12.16 03:17:00 - [1983]
 

Edited by: JcJet on 16/12/2010 03:18:50
before: 25d 8h 12m
now: 26d 25m
and remap...

what a lame.

well, that's just stupid, i've even n didn't imagined that CCP will do this SUCH a stupid way. Even an owners of much simplier MMORPGs have some thinking about changes and how it'll be for players.
drakes is unbalanced? just remove them, destroyers are useless? remove, too many skills? remove, why bothering...
Well done, you just completely lost at least my remaining trust and interest in eve and any future projects of this company...

qaz zaq
Posted - 2010.12.16 03:39:00 - [1984]
 

Just wanted to drop a note to CCP and tell them thanks for the Christmas Presents. Nice ship... Thanks for the learning skill removal also, My currently training skill went from 1d 2h 23m 12s to 1d 5h 35m 18s. Wonderful bonus, Maybe I can get +5 implants to speed it up... Nope, already have them. Guess thats as good as it will ever get.

I was nerfed, like WoW does all the time. Was EVE bought by Blizzard?!?!

So glad CSM/CCP stated 'No one will train slower than they currently do'. Nice standing by your word... :-(

MongoMania
Posted - 2010.12.16 08:50:00 - [1985]
 

Edited by: MongoMania on 16/12/2010 08:53:09
Originally by: Yodayar
What CCP Needs to do is to add 1 more attribute point to each base, this would make up for the loss of SP/hour.

agree with this.
or just give us an additional 1 million SP on top of what was already reimbursed... i bet that keeps everyone happy and quiet on the matter.

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2010.12.16 09:11:00 - [1986]
 

Originally by: MongoMania
Edited by: MongoMania on 16/12/2010 08:53:09
Originally by: Yodayar
What CCP Needs to do is to add 1 more attribute point to each base, this would make up for the loss of SP/hour.

agree with this.
or just give us an additional 1 million SP on top of what was already reimbursed... i bet that keeps everyone happy and quiet on the matter.


5mil SP to distribute didn't stop it, so why would 6mil SP do it? Anything other than equal or faster training speed won't stop the whining, since it doesn't address the issue of slower training speed.

Symlin Raahn
Gallente
Killer Koalas
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:16:00 - [1987]
 

Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
5mil SP to distribute didn't stop it, so why would 6mil SP do it? Anything other than equal or faster training speed won't stop the whining, since it doesn't address the issue of slower training speed.


Agreed, BUT!

Why is it that when people are legitimately hurt or negatively impacted by something and voice their opinions, concerns, and unhappiness about it some people demean those comments by calling them "whining?"

Symlin

Symlin Raahn
Gallente
Killer Koalas
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:25:00 - [1988]
 

Originally by: qaz zaq

So glad CSM/CCP stated 'No one will train slower than they currently do'. Nice standing by your word... :-(


They lie.

Ghorrn Kranthil
Posted - 2010.12.16 17:01:00 - [1989]
 

Originally by: Symlin Raahn
Edited by: Symlin Raahn on 15/12/2010 22:16:35
I don't mind CCP getting rid of the Learning Skills.

For those of us that have (had) characters with all Learning Skills at level V, I don't think it is fair how it was done, nor how we supposedly are being "reimbursed."

At this exact point in time (after the update), the skill I am training would have taken me 7 days, 47 minutes to finish before the Learning Skill books removal. With the change it will now take me 7 days, 6 hours, and 21 minutes to finish

-- an additional 5 hours and 34 minutes.

That sucks!


It sucks even more that this increased learning time is going to be the case for me for all my training in the future.

CCP says I am being 'reimbursed' for the actual skill points in Learning Skills. True. But that is NOT a total of what those points truly cost me and what I have invested in them.

I am NOT being reimbursed minute for minute for the time it took me to learn all the Learning Skills to level V. (These learning sills were not learned at a rate comparable to having all learning at level V, because that is what was training. I am not being reimbursed for that time spent training them, even though I am getting the points.)

I am not being reimbursed for the cost of the skill books. (CCP has come up with some BS about me getting use out of the books and dismissed this point out of hand.)

I am not being reimbursed for the game time it took me to earn the isk to buy the Learning Skill books -- mining hours on end, etc. If I would have spent that time earning the isk, and the isk itself on other books, I would still have the books. Right? To me, it seems the Learning Skill books have almost been stolen from me.

CCP. If you make changes like this, at least don't screw some of your customers.

I would bet most of your customers with all learning at level V are/were some of your loyalist customers, and you have, therefore, found a way to take advantage of that loyalty.

You certainly did not reward that loyalty.

I am very disappointed.

Symlin


does exactly express my opinion & feelings. nice gift for those who never cared and punishment to those that were struggeling :-/ how did we earn this?! at all, i was taken away 1,4stat points! please correct this!

Ghorrn Kranthil
Posted - 2010.12.16 17:05:00 - [1990]
 

Originally by: MongoMania
Edited by: MongoMania on 16/12/2010 08:53:09
Originally by: Yodayar
What CCP Needs to do is to add 1 more attribute point to each base, this would make up for the loss of SP/hour.

agree with this.
or just give us an additional 1 million SP on top of what was already reimbursed... i bet that keeps everyone happy and quiet on the matter.


well, 1mio sp... will just do to compensate for about 12-15 months, as with time our being slowed down will surely be greater than 1mio sp!

Ghorrn Kranthil
Posted - 2010.12.16 17:07:00 - [1991]
 

Edited by: Ghorrn Kranthil on 16/12/2010 17:08:38
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Originally by: MongoMania
Edited by: MongoMania on 16/12/2010 08:53:09
Originally by: Yodayar
What CCP Needs to do is to add 1 more attribute point to each base, this would make up for the loss of SP/hour.

agree with this.
or just give us an additional 1 million SP on top of what was already reimbursed... i bet that keeps everyone happy and quiet on the matter.


5mil SP to distribute didn't stop it, so why would 6mil SP do it? Anything other than equal or faster training speed won't stop the whining, since it doesn't address the issue of slower training speed.


well, those 5,3mio are not a generous gift to be happy about, instead they are the sp we already had. so that's quite the least to be done!

REiiGN15
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.16 17:25:00 - [1992]
 

I can see how that would suck for the old players. Me? Not so much. I'm just a month old.

Guys, as much as this is old great game, its still a business. More and more MMOs come out all the time. MMOs run off of players(well, paid accounts).

Biggest MMO coming out(not already out) is Star Wars: The Old Republic. If no one thinks that will be huge you are kidding yourselves. Games like these will put pressure on EVE, like it or not.

Symlin Raahn
Gallente
Killer Koalas
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2010.12.16 20:36:00 - [1993]
 

Originally by: REiiGN15
I can see how that would suck for the old players. Me? Not so much. I'm just a month old.

Guys, as much as this is old great game, its still a business. More and more MMOs come out all the time. MMOs run off of players (well, paid accounts).


Most of us 'old players' don't mind them taking away the learning skills... not me, at least.

What we mind is being screwed by the way they did it and what they think is fair compensation.

They may THINK it is fair, but if almost all of us being affected adversely don't think it is fair, then it ISN'T fair. Most all of us would not be taking the time to complain if it was fair, would we?

Think of time like money and minutes like dollars. In 2007 training minutes (with no new player bonuses, etc.) I trained over ~5 months to get all learning skills to V. In 2011 minutes, since all people have the same basic attribute points, CCP is giving me back ~3 months worth of training minutes.

IOW, if I would have had back then what the players starting today are being given, I would be ~2 months further than I am with CCP just allowing me to apply my learning skill points to other skills.

Personally, I can handle that, and all the other inequities and ways I'm being screwed, except that I am training slower than I was before the change, and THAT is what is THE MOST IRRITATING!

Symlin

Lyman Alpha
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2010.12.16 20:46:00 - [1994]
 

Originally by: Symlin Raahn
Originally by: REiiGN15
I can see how that would suck for the old players. Me? Not so much. I'm just a month old.

Guys, as much as this is old great game, its still a business. More and more MMOs come out all the time. MMOs run off of players (well, paid accounts).


Most of us 'old players' don't mind them taking away the learning skills... not me, at least.

What we mind is being screwed by the way they did it and what they think is fair compensation.

They may THINK it is fair, but if almost all of us being affected adversely don't think it is fair, then it ISN'T fair. Most all of us would not be taking the time to complain if it was fair, would we?

Think of time like money and minutes like dollars. In 2007 training minutes (with no new player bonuses, etc.) I trained over ~5 months to get all learning skills to V. In 2011 minutes, since all people have the same basic attribute points, CCP is giving me back ~3 months worth of training minutes.

IOW, if I would have had back then what the players starting today are being given, I would be ~2 months further than I am with CCP just allowing me to apply my learning skill points to other skills.

Personally, I can handle that, and all the other inequities and ways I'm being screwed, except that I am training slower than I was before the change, and THAT is what is THE MOST IRRITATING!

Symlin


Symlin,

I agree with that 100%, and with everything else you have posted on this thread.

1. Because I too had all learning skills at V and started a few years ago without any initial training bonus.

2. Because I am your IRL son and know better than not to. LOL

Lyman

Tesl
Posted - 2010.12.16 21:21:00 - [1995]
 

Edited by: Tesl on 16/12/2010 21:22:17
Im confused, i have logged in after a years time out, annoyingly when the new update was taking place yesterday. now i dont mind the skills being taken, i dont mind that i have not been reimbursed for the learning books, but what im completely miffed about is that i only had 500k SP to redistribute. now i know i had all lower learning skills to at least level 4, learning its self to level 5 and had the secondary learning skills, what is rather annoying though is that im am damn sure i should have been given more than 500k SP to redistribute. but because they are now gone i have no idea how much im short.

My memory on my learning skills after a year is not what it used to be, but would be nice if i can check how much SP i should actually be expecting to be able to put else where. Im sure ive been short changed here and would like to know what can be done about it to check to see if my character has been given the correct amount.

Swidgen
Posted - 2010.12.16 21:35:00 - [1996]
 

Originally by: Symlin Raahn
I don't mind CCP getting rid of the Learning Skills.

For those of us that have (had) characters with all Learning Skills at level V, I don't think it is fair how it was done, nor how we supposedly are being "reimbursed."
...
CCP says I am being 'reimbursed' for the actual skill points in Learning Skills. True. But that is NOT a total of what those points truly cost me and what I have invested in them.

This much I completely agree with. What we saw was a huge SP welfare program that gave faster training time to people who didn't deserve it. For those of us who had already earned it, feh, "here's your money back", they say. What has not been compensated is the time spent training those learning skills which, I admit, was a long grind. That grind was worth it for the faster skill training times. Now it has been rendered pointless. They can give me the SP back, which was tbh the very least they could have done, but they can't give me back those weeks spend grinding Eidetic Memory 5 etc. in a Frigate because I decided to postpone more practical skills until later.

SP refund is barely adequate compensation. Does not good to whine about it though.... feh.


Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2010.12.17 00:25:00 - [1997]
 

Originally by: Ghorrn Kranthil
Edited by: Ghorrn Kranthil on 16/12/2010 17:08:38
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Originally by: MongoMania
Edited by: MongoMania on 16/12/2010 08:53:09
Originally by: Yodayar
What CCP Needs to do is to add 1 more attribute point to each base, this would make up for the loss of SP/hour.

agree with this.
or just give us an additional 1 million SP on top of what was already reimbursed... i bet that keeps everyone happy and quiet on the matter.


5mil SP to distribute didn't stop it, so why would 6mil SP do it? Anything other than equal or faster training speed won't stop the whining, since it doesn't address the issue of slower training speed.


well, those 5,3mio are not a generous gift to be happy about, instead they are the sp we already had. so that's quite the least to be done!


You aren't fixing the problem. What you are doing is just begging for a gift and ignoring the stated problem. People who had most learnings at 5/5, myself included, got to enjoy the interest of that investment and now got their capital back. How ever you look at it we are much better off now than all the people who didn't train them to max. They just now have the added benefit of not having to endure the pain that was the learning skills and some of us hoped to maintain the little advantage we had in training speed a bit longer.

The only two things we can gripe about is slower training speed and wasting our time doing the learning grind. Out of those two the learning speed reduction is the only legit one. Wasting our time gripe is BS, since we got the benefit of faster training and got our SP back in full. Getting more SP was the reason we endured it and it payed off, but now it stopped giving any advantage. It was nice to have, but it needed to go and I'm glad it finally did. CCP doesn't think emotional damages caused by bad game design warrants SP reparation though and I agree with them. New players will always have less pointless crap they have to endure and that is how it should be. That is positive progress.

On to the training speed gripe. The reduction in training speed is minimal, but it is still a reduction, that could have been easily avoided by simply adding an additional point or two to the redistrutable attributes for everyone. I don't care about it personally, but I can see people getting ****ed about seeing their training times being increased with this change. A SP gift isn't going to take away that feeling, since you still experience your slower training every time you look at your skills. The fact is, that some players learning speed got nerfed and nothing other than buffing it to what it was or above will make that feeling of getting hit by a nerfbat go away.

Now people can debate is this issue worth fixing or not and what are the implications. You either give players a boost in attributes or just leave it alone and consider it acceptable collateral damage. Either way is fine by me, but throwing away free SP at the problem isn't going to fix it. Well it might if you threw enough free SP at the issue, but that would cause a revolt in the now content masses, so it isn't a smart option for CCP to choose.

Sgt Psilocybin
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.17 01:36:00 - [1998]
 

I've been away from Eve for over a year now but I'm gonna give the 5 free days a whirl. I won't be able to play any longer than that though since I just can't afford the subscription since I lost my job :|

This change to the skills is sure to ruffle some feathers.

DeftCrow Redriver
Gallente
Best Path Inc.
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2010.12.17 02:59:00 - [1999]
 

I don't understand all the rage going on.

Wasn't putting SP accumulated with Per/Will (Clarity V) or Mem/Int (All Learnings, Edietic Memory V, Logic V) into Charisma based skills, while still being Per/Will or Int/Mem remapped, already awesome enough? I'm pretty sure everybody in some kind of corp/alliance and in their right minds would have immediately trained Leadership V / Anchoring V / Starbase Defense Management IV.

Kyraziel Drakonis
Posted - 2010.12.17 13:41:00 - [2000]
 

I think the most that ppl dislike (had also all to 5/5 except charisma 4/5) is the fact that they receive a gift that penalize over time... Well its a gift that dicreases what we already had. - We hadn't trained everything to 5/5 if we havn't be willing to abandon the SP. We bound the SP to lernings just to train better/faster. Now we train slower and everybody that thinks now they got all the attribut points... no, you will miss 1 point and some of you will never knew there was one more you could have.

However, here is my idea:

the current factor (in evemon) is set to 1.00 from learning skills. If this is right you can easily change it to 1.01565

For example:
32*1.01565 = 32.5008 (uprounded to 33)
26*1.01565 = 26.4069 (downrounded to 26)


This calculation allowes me to suggest to modify this multiplier up to a point where everything is back to what we were used to.

Another option would be to add an attribute point whenever it reaches 32 points in total (suggested by my co-ceo).

If you want to support a rebalance:
Here you go

Kyraziel Drakonis

Aquila Fornax
Posted - 2010.12.19 02:16:00 - [2001]
 

Originally by: Symlin Raahn
Edited by: Symlin Raahn on 15/12/2010 22:16:35
I don't mind CCP getting rid of the Learning Skills.

For those of us that have (had) characters with all Learning Skills at level V, I don't think it is fair how it was done, nor how we supposedly are being "reimbursed."

At this exact point in time (after the update), the skill I am training would have taken me 7 days, 47 minutes to finish before the Learning Skill books removal. With the change it will now take me 7 days, 6 hours, and 21 minutes to finish

-- an additional 5 hours and 34 minutes.

That sucks!


It sucks even more that this increased learning time is going to be the case for me for all my training in the future.

CCP says I am being 'reimbursed' for the actual skill points in Learning Skills. True. But that is NOT a total of what those points truly cost me and what I have invested in them.

I am NOT being reimbursed minute for minute for the time it took me to learn all the Learning Skills to level V. (These learning sills were not learned at a rate comparable to having all learning at level V, because that is what was training. I am not being reimbursed for that time spent training them, even though I am getting the points.)

I am not being reimbursed for the cost of the skill books. (CCP has come up with some BS about me getting use out of the books and dismissed this point out of hand.)

I am not being reimbursed for the game time it took me to earn the isk to buy the Learning Skill books -- mining hours on end, etc. If I would have spent that time earning the isk, and the isk itself on other books, I would still have the books. Right? To me, it seems the Learning Skill books have almost been stolen from me.

CCP. If you make changes like this, at least don't screw some of your customers.

I would bet most of your customers with all learning at level V are/were some of your loyalist customers, and you have, therefore, found a way to take advantage of that loyalty.

You certainly did not reward that loyalty.

I am very disappointed.

Symlin


I concur!
It seems CCP just miscalculated how many attributes we need reimbursed..
Looking at my old stats (39.6, 33, 31.9, 34.1, 38.3) compared to now (39, 33, 31, 34, 38), it seems they added it all up correctly.. but they rounded DOWN to the nearest whole attribute. If they'd rounded up, we'd all be better off.

just my 2 isk.

Eradiani
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2010.12.20 18:21:00 - [2002]
 

maybe what they should have done is give every one 10 points and an inherent 10% bonus.. That way everyone that did train things to 5 would have the exact same training speed, and those that didn't would train faster.

but I guess that would be confusing for noobs

Kuro Miko
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.12.21 07:54:00 - [2003]
 

Glad learning skills have been canned, but the point remains that the manner in which it was executed, seems to be extremely poorly thought through.Shocked
CCP should ensure that no player is any worse off than they were before the removal of learning skillsExclamation

72SP/H may not seems like a lot, but over time it builds up to a massive amount of SP lost - perhaps CCP is trying to find a way to "force" people to train for longer in the hopes that they will keep on paying...err playing for longer?Rolling Eyes

Quicktime
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.12.21 16:37:00 - [2004]
 

anyone have trouble after the patch / server update to allow for remaps? I think .3 last week? I didn't get a remap at first, but then it finally worked after the patch, and I see that it seems like half my remap worked I cranked everything from Intel / Memory and switched it all to willpower and perception but the willpower attribute didn't change, just perception? I am just wondering if I am the only one or is this happening to others?


I already filed a petition to have them check, I have another corp mate that had the same trouble but nobody else. Any help appreciated.

On the slower skill training or CCP HAPPY "FIST in the Buttocks" CHRISTMAS! what do you expect, all noobs are better off if you think "they" CCP care about old players then you forgot that CCP only created so much content once you play 1/10 of it you realize that it is all the same with harder and sorta harder crappy red crosses to shoot, and the same missions with different names for all races, and they want you to quit so they don't have to buy more hardware.

They want customers that play for 6 months and quit, and get more new customers, if you think of it this way you will might become a little less bitter. This don't work for me I am still ****ed about the DD nerf, speed nerf, combat rebalancing, and so many thing my bitterness has made me forgot what I was talking about...

:-)


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