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JTDaBeast
Posted - 2010.12.06 05:35:00 - [1891]
 

Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn
Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 06/12/2010 04:45:44



Not true :)
Yes, there is no big deal for older players to have 5-5 learnings, implantsm and anything.

It's kinda funny, but i've seen MANY chars with a same amount of sp as me(~90kk) without 5-5 learnings, sometimes it's even 4-3, and weird remaps... So i think i've catched them, because those chars are something like 3 years older than mine...

So now such "trick" will be impossible, because there will be no such loosers anymore, implants didn't do a big difference...
As i've sayed before - good idea of removing useless months of training on a begining, but terrible way to do this, most terrible...
...



Just because a characters birth date is before yours doesn't mean that they've been subscribed that entire time. Lots of guys who played 3+ years ago quit (because the game was FULL of bad design, like Learning skills...) and came back after subsequent patches. You have no way of proving that they are actually older than you, or that your "investment" and intelligence in training gave you any advantage.

You could never "catch up" because theres no such thing, you don't need to. The way the skill system is setup makes your point irrelevant. You might want to try to gain an actual understanding of the game before posting again.



THIS IS THE GOSPEL RIGHT HERE. SAY AMEN PEOPLE.

Also, just cause you've managed to catch up to an older player by training learning, you now have say 2 million more points then them but have 3 million more than them in the learning category. That puts you 1 million points behind them in skills that mean something, like cap,gunnery,missiles,trade,industry, anything. But to say I can learn faster than you, WOW, so what.

that's my 2 cents.

JT Fly safe Cool

Winston Brunai
Posted - 2010.12.06 08:54:00 - [1892]
 

Edited by: Winston Brunai on 06/12/2010 09:06:23
Edited by: Winston Brunai on 06/12/2010 08:54:23
Speaking as someone with a Toon with 5/5 and another at 4/5 I like this change but do wish I didn't have to take it in the shorts. As it has been pointed out many times on a targeted skill plan this my 5/5 toon with +5 implants will take a small loss of 72 sp per hr. Thats not enough to cause me tears but is enough for me to make m y feelings known CCP I Understand that this will help a large number of people. But please do not make a habit of playing with our skillsheets


On a side note Would a reformatted employment history page be too much to ask for? Some of us that have been around for a few years have fairly extensive histories. I'd like to see it grouped by "Current Corp" "Last Corp" then a tab for time spent in Noob corps.

JcJet
Caldari
Pretenders Inc
W-Space
Posted - 2010.12.06 10:04:00 - [1893]
 

Edited by: JcJet on 06/12/2010 10:48:09
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn
Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 06/12/2010 04:45:44



Not true :)
Yes, there is no big deal for older players to have 5-5 learnings, implantsm and anything.

It's kinda funny, but i've seen MANY chars with a same amount of sp as me(~90kk) without 5-5 learnings, sometimes it's even 4-3, and weird remaps... So i think i've catched them, because those chars are something like 3 years older than mine...

So now such "trick" will be impossible, because there will be no such loosers anymore, implants didn't do a big difference...
As i've sayed before - good idea of removing useless months of training on a begining, but terrible way to do this, most terrible...
...



Just because a characters birth date is before yours doesn't mean that they've been subscribed that entire time. Lots of guys who played 3+ years ago quit (because the game was FULL of bad design, like Learning skills...) and came back after subsequent patches. You have no way of proving that they are actually older than you, or that your "investment" and intelligence in training gave you any advantage.

You could never "catch up" because theres no such thing, you don't need to. The way the skill system is setup makes your point irrelevant. You might want to try to gain an actual understanding of the game before posting again.


I've talked about currently active pilots. Those who leaved 3 years ago are unlikely returns with an old account... Btw, why bother about their learnings while they themselves didn't cares about their training time? :)

I have enough of understanding, dude :) It's just so obvious and boring...

Originally by: JTDaBeast
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn
Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 06/12/2010 04:45:44


Also, just cause you've managed to catch up to an older player by training learning, you now have say 2 million more points then them but have 3 million more than them in the learning category. That puts you 1 million points behind them in skills that mean something, like cap,gunnery,missiles,trade,industry, anything. But to say I can learn faster than you, WOW, so what.


Hm... no, there is certainly more advantage from 5-5 learnings, and why do you consider this skills to be useless SP? Those skills increases training speed => you benefit from them everytime, whatever you do in game not even for pure SP, but at least to just train a little faster for a ship which you tried in EFT today. And with a same time there is so much specific high-ranked skills which don't used often, or gives far less benefits - capital ships(if not for titan), advanced drone interfacing, capital hull rep...etc

So 5-5 learnings it's something like... 2% to drone damage from LV5 specs. Does everyone needs this? no. Does many people ever wanted that so much? no. But there will be ppl who will train them to all to L5 just because they want and this is no big deal for them. Same with learnings, actually you sayed for me - most of the ppl didn't have this 5/5 perfectionist set because they not want it so badly. So why give them those then? Yes, again i agree that training learnings from start for every noob is spoiling a new player expirience... but PERFECTED 5/5? WTF? 4-3 is logical, but this...

Lysander Kaldenn
Dead Reckoning.
Posted - 2010.12.06 17:55:00 - [1894]
 

Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 06/12/2010 17:59:17
Originally by: JcJet
Edited by: JcJet on 06/12/2010 10:48:09
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn
Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 06/12/2010 04:45:44



Not true :)
Yes, there is no big deal for older players to have 5-5 learnings, implantsm and anything.

It's kinda funny, but i've seen MANY chars with a same amount of sp as me(~90kk) without 5-5 learnings, sometimes it's even 4-3, and weird remaps... So i think i've catched them, because those chars are something like 3 years older than mine...

So now such "trick" will be impossible, because there will be no such loosers anymore, implants didn't do a big difference...
As i've sayed before - good idea of removing useless months of training on a begining, but terrible way to do this, most terrible...
...



Just because a characters birth date is before yours doesn't mean that they've been subscribed that entire time. Lots of guys who played 3+ years ago quit (because the game was FULL of bad design, like Learning skills...) and came back after subsequent patches. You have no way of proving that they are actually older than you, or that your "investment" and intelligence in training gave you any advantage.

You could never "catch up" because theres no such thing, you don't need to. The way the skill system is setup makes your point irrelevant. You might want to try to gain an actual understanding of the game before posting again.


I've talked about currently active pilots. Those who leaved 3 years ago are unlikely returns with an old account... Btw, why bother about their learnings while they themselves didn't cares about their training time? :)

I have enough of understanding, dude :) It's just so obvious and boring...

Originally by: JTDaBeast
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn
Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 06/12/2010 04:45:44


Also, just cause you've managed to catch up to an older player by training learning, you now have say 2 million more points then them but have 3 million more than them in the learning category. That puts you 1 million points behind them in skills that mean something, like cap,gunnery,missiles,trade,industry, anything. But to say I can learn faster than you, WOW, so what.


Hm... no, there is certainly more advantage from 5-5 learnings, and why do you consider this skills to be useless SP? Those skills increases training speed => you benefit from them everytime, whatever you do in game not even for pure SP, but at least to just train a little faster for a ship which you tried in EFT today. And with a same time there is so much specific high-ranked skills which don't used often, or gives far less benefits - capital ships(if not for titan), advanced drone interfacing, capital hull rep...etc

So 5-5 learnings it's something like... 2% to drone damage from LV5 specs. Does everyone needs this? no. Does many people ever wanted that so much? no. But there will be ppl who will train them to all to L5 just because they want and this is no big deal for them. Same with learnings, actually you sayed for me - most of the ppl didn't have this 5/5 perfectionist set because they not want it so badly. So why give them those then? Yes, again i agree that training learnings from start for every noob is spoiling a new player expirience... but PERFECTED 5/5? WTF? 4-3 is logical, but this...


You're completely misunderstanding my point, and in a really strange way, proving it right at the same time.

Edit: Let me give you a hint. Skill training in Eve is NOT a linear progression.

Enraged Stoat
Posted - 2010.12.06 22:55:00 - [1895]
 

I was initially against removing the learning skills, but now support it.

However, I don't think characters are being compensated enough.

When learning skills disappear new characters effectively start with ready maxed learning skills (and therefore SP/hour learning speed).

To max learning skills from scratch takes a newbie ~150 days.

To train the same number of similarly ranked (and pri/sec attributed) skills AFTER maxing learning skills takes ~125 days.

Newborns after the removal of learning skills will have a 25 day advantage over old timers because they didn't need to learn skills to speed up learning.

This can be countered by proportionally increasing the SP reimbursement. Take whatever SP reimbursement characters will get and +20%.

No I won't emorage quit over it. Therefore there is no stuff you can haz.

eaterofcheese
FACTION Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.06 23:06:00 - [1896]
 

Edited by: eaterofcheese on 06/12/2010 23:07:12
Ah well. This char has 5/5 on all the learning skills. I don't mind losing them and redistributing the SP, but I do resent the sheer time spent doing the training. It's not like they were all easy to get maxed out.

Bugger :(

night shiftstar
Posted - 2010.12.07 00:29:00 - [1897]
 

this char is almost 5-5 every bloody learning ****y skill... and my only regret was having to have them trained back then b4 anything else to save time in the future (now), plenty time in did I'v stayed "practically" docked b4 I could do something minimum properly, like... PLAYING !!!

I'm glad that new comers to EvE don't have to pass by this 3 months or so of learning living hell ugh

I also know a few good pilots that haven't continue playing essentially due to that.
Now, that the learning stinky skill r about to go in to the void, this pilots might return.

Commander Kennedy
Caldari
Firebird Squadron
Terra-Incognita
Posted - 2010.12.07 04:31:00 - [1898]
 

Okay, I'm not reading through 70 pages of posts, so if anyone knows the answer to these would you kindly answer them:

1. Is everyone on TQ getting a free remap when the learning skills go away.
2. Will everyone's attributes be "reset" to 20-20-20-19-20?

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2010.12.07 04:48:00 - [1899]
 

Edited by: Apollo Gabriel on 07/12/2010 04:55:08
Originally by: Enraged Stoat
I was initially against removing the learning skills, but now support it.

However, I don't think characters are being compensated enough.

When learning skills disappear new characters effectively start with ready maxed learning skills (and therefore SP/hour learning speed).

To max learning skills from scratch takes a newbie ~150 days.

To train the same number of similarly ranked (and pri/sec attributed) skills AFTER maxing learning skills takes ~125 days.

Newborns after the removal of learning skills will have a 25 day advantage over old timers because they didn't need to learn skills to speed up learning.

This can be countered by proportionally increasing the SP reimbursement. Take whatever SP reimbursement characters will get and +20%.

No I won't emorage quit over it. Therefore there is no stuff you can haz.


Ok, please read carefully:

1) New players train as quickly as old Players.
2) New players get 0 skill points to redistribute
3) Old players get ALL of their Learning skills to redistribute, so up to 5.5 m I believe.
4) New players get 0 skill points to redistribute
5) if you get the full 5.5 m skill points, then roughly one trains ~55k sp per day, so that is 100 days of skill training that you are being reimbursed, which is great. So new player starts at least 100 days behind a player who did nothing but train learning skills everyday until the start of incursion. 100 days is 14 weeks or 3 months+

You really don't need any more than you are getting here.
Originally by: Commander Kennedy
Okay, I'm not reading through 70 pages of posts, so if anyone knows the answer to these would you kindly answer them:

1. Is everyone on TQ getting a free remap when the learning skills go away.
2. Will everyone's attributes be "reset" to 20-20-20-19-20?


No to both.


JcJet
Caldari
Pretenders Inc
W-Space
Posted - 2010.12.07 05:05:00 - [1900]
 

Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn
Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 06/12/2010 17:59:17
Originally by: JcJet
Edited by: JcJet on 06/12/2010 10:48:09
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn
Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 06/12/2010 04:45:44



Not true :)
Yes, there is no big deal for older players to have 5-5 learnings, implantsm and anything.

It's kinda funny, but i've seen MANY chars with a same amount of sp as me(~90kk) without 5-5 learnings, sometimes it's even 4-3, and weird remaps... So i think i've catched them, because those chars are something like 3 years older than mine...

So now such "trick" will be impossible, because there will be no such loosers anymore, implants didn't do a big difference...
As i've sayed before - good idea of removing useless months of training on a begining, but terrible way to do this, most terrible...
...



Just because a characters birth date is before yours doesn't mean that they've been subscribed that entire time. Lots of guys who played 3+ years ago quit (because the game was FULL of bad design, like Learning skills...) and came back after subsequent patches. You have no way of proving that they are actually older than you, or that your "investment" and intelligence in training gave you any advantage.

You could never "catch up" because theres no such thing, you don't need to. The way the skill system is setup makes your point irrelevant. You might want to try to gain an actual understanding of the game before posting again.


I've talked about currently active pilots. Those who leaved 3 years ago are unlikely returns with an old account... Btw, why bother about their learnings while they themselves didn't cares about their training time? :)

I have enough of understanding, dude :) It's just so obvious and boring...

Originally by: JTDaBeast
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn
Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 06/12/2010 04:45:44


Also, just cause you've managed to catch up to an older player by training learning, you now have say 2 million more points then them but have 3 million more than them in the learning category. That puts you 1 million points behind them in skills that mean something, like cap,gunnery,missiles,trade,industry, anything. But to say I can learn faster than you, WOW, so what.


Hm... no, there is certainly more advantage from 5-5 learnings, and why do you consider this skills to be useless SP? Those skills increases training speed => you benefit from them everytime, whatever you do in game not even for pure SP, but at least to just train a little faster for a ship which you tried in EFT today. And with a same time there is so much specific high-ranked skills which don't used often, or gives far less benefits - capital ships(if not for titan), advanced drone interfacing, capital hull rep...etc

So 5-5 learnings it's something like... 2% to drone damage from LV5 specs. Does everyone needs this? no. Does many people ever wanted that so much? no. But there will be ppl who will train them to all to L5 just because they want and this is no big deal for them. Same with learnings, actually you sayed for me - most of the ppl didn't have this 5/5 perfectionist set because they not want it so badly. So why give them those then? Yes, again i agree that training learnings from start for every noob is spoiling a new player expirience... but PERFECTED 5/5? WTF? 4-3 is logical, but this...


You're completely misunderstanding my point, and in a really strange way, proving it right at the same time.

Edit: Let me give you a hint. Skill training in Eve is NOT a linear progression.

Point taken, i think :) Human factor influences SP gained since date of bith. Yes, i know, and this is right and good thing, and different learning levels is a factor of same kind. And removing this difference is one kind with a change like an adding an automatic planning and training for suspended accounts, or when current skill queue becomes inactive...

JcJet
Caldari
Pretenders Inc
W-Space
Posted - 2010.12.07 05:39:00 - [1901]
 

There is 2 consequences of this change:
1. No more waiting for noobs, training learnings while flying on noobship - good.
P.s. i fully support this one, but actually when i created my first character, i've liked to fly my ibis on challenging lvl-1 missions, nice ship, shooting npc with infinite ammo and mining the asteroids at a same time :) i was so happy when iv'e bought and fited my first mighty Kestrel (i think i've been even more excited than i jumped in my first dreadnought :)), and lost it when warpen on lvl4 storyline :( doing courier missions, it's been a proffitable thing for such a noob who tries to focus on learnings, so much new, so big world :)
Well, now, even with learnings, i thing that frigates, destroyers and cruisers are trash even for noobs, boring, they bought their drakes and ravens much sooner, so what, it's so little... So those learnings actually not a issue. But i understand that there is not much such players, so i still think that is a good change, althrough if i've started today, is most likely that i'll not continued, because there is no challenge or some interesting goals, ccp already do most of this goals for players, so it's just about online time now, like in other mmorpgs...

2. Lesser difference in players SP gain from a player itself, this one is why i don't like the way they introduced this change to achieve (1). Another step to simpler, and unfortunately, most boring and predictable game process, even for noobs. While it's can be done simply by tweaking a starting skills, well, not to 5/5 but to average level, which most of players training in their first half of a year, so noobs will not be forced to train learnings. And there is still be perfectionists which will train 5/5 from a start and will not whine about how long it takes :)

btw it's also, more or less, prevent a huge grow of alt count:
i dunno if this is been mentioned, but you thinked about how easy is to train any alt in free 2 slots? just insert some iplants, anh here you go, alt with perfect leadership, trade, CEO, industry in very short time. Now it's not so good idea to train something like that to perfect on those slots, because even with a good remap and implants, it's train slower than main with other remap due to learnings...:)

Yvaldarm Kevap
Posted - 2010.12.07 09:44:00 - [1902]
 

This is not nice news for me... wasnt here for some time - only for switch skill.
As noob and im still with 17.8m sp but i was trainin learnings from start. I give to my char rly good atributes(so i dont need to remap) and it is my first char.

If we think about it its just gettin this game for "some sort" of gamers... => soon we can go play wow or lineage or else... (huray for noobs like these wich will play and just borther other with theyre load of ****) - send em on singularity

Isnīt remap enoughQuestion

Why there should be easier? Where is point? Its not fun when i can get anythin without patience, sacrafice and heawy work on ur chars.

I like it hard way.

JcJet
Caldari
Pretenders Inc
W-Space
Posted - 2010.12.07 10:08:00 - [1903]
 

Edited by: JcJet on 07/12/2010 10:10:47
Originally by: Yvaldarm Kevap

Why there should be easier? Where is point? Its not fun when i can get anythin without patience, sacrafice and heawy work on ur chars.

I like it hard way.

Yup...

I've just remembered my first mmorpg expirience, in Lineage 2 when first pirate servers apears.
C1, it's been a nice game, i've dived to human island with dark elf because it's the only place that i know and i know most of the people there, like some community inside of community, we're oftem be sad when someone haved enough xp and money to afford a ship ticket, and see the world on an other side of the water... It's been so alive, so interesting to play, so much emotions...
But at some point stupidity gets to admins minds, they decided to increase a rates on server, first was x1 to x3, then x3-x9, some was very unpleased, and i'm too write so much text about this then... Want a joke? you'll like this one, i'm sure :) they sayed that main reason for this is: there is some high-level players and clans in game already (after a year or so, after server start) and there is so little chance to new players to catch them, or kill them... and other bla bla bla which we often read when it's comes to new player expirience. What we got now in L2? ah, i even didn't want to know how it is now, it's become a **** long ago... because in a first place, there is shouldn't be any challenge for noobs, so we'll have more cash-spending monkeys for our game...

Bilibis
Posted - 2010.12.07 11:32:00 - [1904]
 

Edited by: Bilibis on 07/12/2010 12:03:57
Edited by: Bilibis on 07/12/2010 11:33:01
If +5's stop gaining 5.5 bonus and only give 5 with this change why doesn't CCP puts in the game the +6's and +7 impants?

at least the +6's whould be nice to mitigate the 0.5 loss.

Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury
Posted - 2010.12.07 15:32:00 - [1905]
 

Edited by: Joss56 on 07/12/2010 15:34:55
Originally by: JcJet
Yup...
I've just remembered my first mmorpg expirience, in Lineage 2 when first pirate servers apears.
C1, it's been a nice game, i've dived to human island with dark elf because it's the only place that i know and i know most of the people there, like some community inside of community, we're oftem be sad when someone haved enough xp and money to afford a ship ticket, and see the world on an other side of the water... It's been so alive, so interesting to play, so much emotions...
But at some point stupidity gets to admins minds, they decided to increase a rates on server, first was x1 to x3, then x3-x9, some was very unpleased, and i'm too write so much text about this then... Want a joke? you'll like this one, i'm sure :) they sayed that main reason for this is: there is some high-level players and clans in game already (after a year or so, after server start) and there is so little chance to new players to catch them, or kill them... and other bla bla bla which we often read when it's comes to new player expirience. What we got now in L2? ah, i even didn't want to know how it is now, it's become a **** long ago... because in a first place, there is shouldn't be any challenge for noobs, so we'll have more cash-spending monkeys for our game...


Words...and more words. So you know that well lineage, how about saying the most instersting part of?

Nbr of players all around the world?

PVP= talk about rules and how heasy you can get banned?

I've got something for you guys that love "hard mmo's", move on to asian games/servers, you'll learn what the word "hard" means. Not a game like eve where you have nothing hard to do to gain your sp...ho yeah, fill youre skils queue, goch that's hard.

But if you're talking about fps-mmo, even then i don't understand wy youre talking about lineage, it's so different from eve, it's a real pvp designed game.

Generals4
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.07 15:38:00 - [1906]
 

Originally by: Joss56

I've got something for you guys that love "hard mmo's", move on to asian games/servers, you'll learn what the word "hard" means. Not a game like eve where you have nothing hard to do to gain your sp...ho yeah, fill youre skils queue, goch that's hard.



Asian games aren't hard, they're just time consuming due to their huge grind fest. Killing 100000000 npc's =/= hard , it's tedious . Heck , the hardest MMO i've played still remains Runescape (the quests) (note: not that i'm saying its extremely hard but other MMO's are usually **** easy).

Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury
Posted - 2010.12.07 16:04:00 - [1907]
 

Originally by: Generals4
Asian games aren't hard, they're just time consuming due to their huge grind fest. Killing 100000000 npc's =/= hard , it's tedious . Heck , the hardest MMO i've played still remains Runescape (the quests) (note: not that i'm saying its extremely hard but other MMO's are usually **** easy).


5 or 6 months to perfect learnings is nothing else than grind.
One year after you still dont have perfect gunnery/drones for BS T2 and skils related.
People can call this whatever they want, for me is nothing else than another way of grind.

Now what is hard on eve?
-find people that you can trust
-you can't do anything without being bored by scum
-concord is the best ally of gankers/pirates and all kind of scum

Kenn
Caldari
McKae Industries and Research
Posted - 2010.12.07 19:10:00 - [1908]
 

It seems that the removal of Learning skills is well recieved. This thread was too big for me to read every entry so if I am rehashing something previously discussed many apologies to you all.

I personally like the Policey. I hope CCP continues similar approaches to future game updates. For example if a player invested time and money in a skill and that skill was updated and changed considerably where it's whole purpose was changed then the character who invested in that skill gets the option of removing that and only that skill getting the SP and isk paid for it (market transactions only) back. The player now has the option of training up a different skill or leaving what they have alone. A time period may be imposed after logging on to decide.

Of course players who trained up skill trees for a specific career may not benefit from such a fix but damage control wil be a little more effective.

I hope also that previous skills like Astronautic Engineering which are now defunct and unavailable will also be removed with the players reimbursed both with isk and SP.

Either that or make it available on the market so we can all train it for no reason at all. Rolling Eyes

Whether or not you agree with the removal of learning skills hopefully we can all at least agree with the method of removal. That can only be a good thing in Eve. Very Happy

JcJet
Caldari
Pretenders Inc
W-Space
Posted - 2010.12.08 00:49:00 - [1909]
 

Edited by: JcJet on 08/12/2010 00:53:03
Originally by: Joss56
Edited by: Joss56 on 07/12/2010 15:34:55But if you're talking about fps-mmo, even then i don't understand wy youre talking about lineage, it's so different from eve, it's a real pvp designed game.

Yes, those games is very different as mmorps, but they still mmorpgs so there is common things MMORPG has.
Iv'e talket about L2 because tendency seems to be very simillar. How good games becomes a **** by "good intensions" of their owners, that's sad...
It's also simmilar that newcomers will like that ****, as for L2 today, they have their players, it's generally an another kind of community already, of course, but it's a larger community which pays money...

Jaik7
Posted - 2010.12.08 01:30:00 - [1910]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
OK ... it's like this ...

You have two kinds of people ... those who just want everything as fast as they can get it and don't give a damn about using their intellect to plan anything out - or to work for anything - and those who aren't idiots.

Type A here ... doesn't give a damn about anything but getting what they want NOW!!! -- NOW!!! NOW!!!! NOW!!!!!!

Type B here - thinks about things and benefits in the long term from doing things in an intelligent manner.


You've just rewarded all the impatient little ****s - and dumbed down the game.

Those with discipline - who would work hard in the beginning that they might benefit from it later ... well ... you don't have as many of them ... so ... you'll probably end up with more subscribers by doing this - and that after all - is all you really care about. The game will be more appealing to impatient little ****s and less appealing to those with intellect.

*shrug*

Whatever ...

I've seen gaming companies go straight to hell amidst massive cheering before (massive cheering on the part of impatient little ****s) so I know better than to think that the few voices in opposition to dumbing down the game will even be heard. I hope that all of you cheering this decision enjoy the type of community we will have as the impatient little ****s become even more dominant than they are now - but - the weeding out process of impatient little ****s - who were to damn impatient to learn their learning skills and quit the game - was a good thing. It increased the average intelligence of those playing the game.

The period of learning also gave new players a buffer, a time in which to gain some in game experience before they began training for things they knew absolutely nothing about. Yes ... I'm certain ... that you will have lots and lots more impatient little ****s running around in Drakes - a whole lot sooner than they would have been - and clearly having absolutely no idea what they are doing. Of course - when they lose those ships and are begging in local for money ... I'm not ****ing going to give them any ... and maybe we'll shed ourselves of a few impatient little ****s through that process. Of course ... they'll be more coming down the pipe.


Anyway ...


Congratulations to the developers for succumbing to this stupidity - if you get tired of working for CCP - you can always find a home over at SOE - where you'll fit right in.


Oh ... and just in case you thought your selves superior to the people over at SOE ... here's a clue - you're not. You just proved it.





firstly, there's plenty of type b idiots.

second, the large mass of idiots get filtered out the second they realize this is not a dogfighting game and the majority of combat is calculating whether or not the transversal is minor enough your guns can hit the other guy.

if they manage to get that far, they get filtered out by the need for standings to do better missions. the gimmee crowd has not won yet, and while this can be percieved as a concession to them, it is really just ccp taking back something that didnt contribute to the game.

Morgan Saint
Posted - 2010.12.08 01:45:00 - [1911]
 

I shat myself backwards from the sheer awesomeness of this.

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.12.08 07:20:00 - [1912]
 

Originally by: Jaik7
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
OK ... it's like this ...

You have two kinds of people ... those who just want everything as fast as they can get it and don't give a damn about using their intellect to plan anything out - or to work for anything - and those who aren't idiots.

Type A here ... doesn't give a damn about anything but getting what they want NOW!!! -- NOW!!! NOW!!!! NOW!!!!!!

Type B here - thinks about things and benefits in the long term from doing things in an intelligent manner.


You've just rewarded all the impatient little ****s - and dumbed down the game.

Those with discipline - who would work hard in the beginning that they might benefit from it later ... well ... you don't have as many of them ... so ... you'll probably end up with more subscribers by doing this - and that after all - is all you really care about. The game will be more appealing to impatient little ****s and less appealing to those with intellect.

*shrug*

Whatever ...

I've seen gaming companies go straight to hell amidst massive cheering before (massive cheering on the part of impatient little ****s) so I know better than to think that the few voices in opposition to dumbing down the game will even be heard. I hope that all of you cheering this decision enjoy the type of community we will have as the impatient little ****s become even more dominant than they are now - but - the weeding out process of impatient little ****s - who were to damn impatient to learn their learning skills and quit the game - was a good thing. It increased the average intelligence of those playing the game.

The period of learning also gave new players a buffer, a time in which to gain some in game experience before they began training for things they knew absolutely nothing about. Yes ... I'm certain ... that you will have lots and lots more impatient little ****s running around in Drakes - a whole lot sooner than they would have been - and clearly having absolutely no idea what they are doing. Of course - when they lose those ships and are begging in local for money ... I'm not ****ing going to give them any ... and maybe we'll shed ourselves of a few impatient little ****s through that process. Of course ... they'll be more coming down the pipe.


Anyway ...


Congratulations to the developers for succumbing to this stupidity - if you get tired of working for CCP - you can always find a home over at SOE - where you'll fit right in.


Oh ... and just in case you thought your selves superior to the people over at SOE ... here's a clue - you're not. You just proved it.





firstly, there's plenty of type b idiots.

second, the large mass of idiots get filtered out the second they realize this is not a dogfighting game and the majority of combat is calculating whether or not the transversal is minor enough your guns can hit the other guy.

if they manage to get that far, they get filtered out by the need for standings to do better missions. the gimmee crowd has not won yet, and while this can be percieved as a concession to them, it is really just ccp taking back something that didnt contribute to the game.


I love dogfighting games. I thought EVE was dogfighting when I first started too. Was greatly disapointed that it is not. But it's still the best Space MMO out there today.ugh

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.12.08 11:13:00 - [1913]
 

Either way, dogfights would undermine the sense of size and scale for current EVE-ships. One really shouldn't forget, that the smallest directly player-controllable ships are actually as large as Boeing 747s (despite some of them having obvious fighter-sized cockpits - one of the things I think we're going to loose over time, when they overhaul all the designs like they did with the Scorpion). Didn't we all had troubles to decide if we should cry out in pain or roll on the floor and laugh really hard, when Riker joysticked the Enterprise?

Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury
Posted - 2010.12.08 18:13:00 - [1914]
 

Originally by: Morgan Saint
I shat myself backwards from the sheer awesomeness of this.


Let me help you ;)

And i'll do it for nothing, free. Laughing

Earthican
Minmatar
DARKFELL EXCURSIONS
Reverberation Project
Posted - 2010.12.08 19:24:00 - [1915]
 

Edited by: Earthican on 08/12/2010 19:35:14
Originally by: Enraged Stoat
I was initially against removing the learning skills, but now support it.

However, I don't think characters are being compensated enough.

When learning skills disappear new characters effectively start with ready maxed learning skills (and therefore SP/hour learning speed).

To max learning skills from scratch takes a newbie ~150 days.

To train the same number of similarly ranked (and pri/sec attributed) skills AFTER maxing learning skills takes ~125 days.

Newborns after the removal of learning skills will have a 25 day advantage over old timers because they didn't need to learn skills to speed up learning.

This can be countered by proportionally increasing the SP reimbursement. Take whatever SP reimbursement characters will get and +20%.

No I won't emorage quit over it. Therefore there is no stuff you can haz.



I love the part about new players having a 25 day advantage over your 1465 day old character.

Baal Reshef
Posted - 2010.12.08 21:17:00 - [1916]
 

I'm conflicted about this.

On one hand it's great that new players don't have to go through the tedious training of learning skills. Good for them!

On the other hand it's terrible that the new players don't have to go through the training of learning skills. I mean, EVE online is a fairly mature game with fairly mature players, and one of the reasons for this is that it's a difficult game that takes both skill and patience. Dumbing it down and making it easier will make it more accessible, sure, but it will also open the door for those 13 year old WoW-bored mmorpg'ers. A part of why EVE is great is because it's full of hurdles, steep learning curves and an interface that 'couldn't have been less intuitive if you put your monitor at the bottom of a f'kin well' (in the words of zero punctuation).

In short, I hope this doesn't mean CCP is planning to attract a bigger crowd by dumbing the game down. Sure, you might reign in a few people from other 'dumb' MMO's, but then you have to ask yourself who you would rather have as your customers: hardcore loyal fans who stick with you for years, or people who abandoned ship from another MMO?

Kratos Siber
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.09 01:50:00 - [1917]
 

Edited by: Kratos Siber on 09/12/2010 02:24:50
I am sad.

I spent 14+ days per skill maxing out my SOCT skills. On paper, with maxed attributes, i save roughly 2 months a year at tops training skills relevant to my maxed out attribute (based on the first 1 week on neural remap introduction)

Giving me back the full value of my skillpoints is worthless since the advantage of faster learning than OTHER people (who can't be bothered to be patient) is priceless.

For people who tell me i'll now learn faster, yes, but now i learn the same as everybody else who didn't bother to sit through 2 and a half months of training for TWO different accounts. I've already PAID my price. Eve taught me that winning is not about finishing the race, it's about making sure the people around you don't make it as far as you do.

I've always supported you CCP throughout the years. This is the first time I feel that I've been slapped for a cumulative 5 months of effort on my part, through no fault of my own.

Thank you

Kratos/Liosa

Edit: SPeeeeling meestakes =D

Chuc Morris
Posted - 2010.12.09 04:58:00 - [1918]
 

Learnings R.I.P. Twisted Evil

Pew Pew ->[- ]

Walk on Stations Evil or Very Mad ugh

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.09 10:51:00 - [1919]
 

This change is going through as is now letsw look forward to what comes next

NereSky
Gallente
RETRIBUTIONS.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2010.12.09 11:00:00 - [1920]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
stuff


You forget 1 major issue in that speel, older players had crap attributes to start with and had no choice to train advanced learning to catch up with the newer player chars when they released in RMR

Newer chars starting Attributs and SP's are greatly increased in comparison to what older chars had'
which we sucked up and went back to increasing the learning skills

now they are being taken out of game and attributes increased - again no problem with this however there should be something more this time for the older chars that had to take the attribute and starting sp's increase for newer players - as previously said there doesnt seem much for those that took the time and trouble to max out their skills because of the enviroment CCP placed us in.


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