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Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.12.03 09:54:00 - [1861]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 03/12/2010 09:58:31
Originally by: Annagallen
I do not see how losing 50+10% = 55 points, and gaining back only 12 is a reasonable thing.


I think you grossly misunderstood something. You do not just get 12 points instead of learning skills, you get +12 on each attribute, instead of learning skills, totalling up to +60 unmovable points. You'll loose a grand total of 0.8 points per attribute with this change.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.12.03 10:55:00 - [1862]
 

Originally by: Amhana Rhal
Chiselhead has a point here. When I started at the end of 2007, I'll have to admit..... I was a bit overwhelmed by the scope of the skill training.

I am the exception to the rule here though, i had guidence to train my learning skills first to help "even the field" with my friends that started this game 2 months before me.

Once my learning skills were up to par, my other skills fell in to line nicely and I started catching up.

I started an alternate character about a year ago and was surprised to find that the alt recieved a 100% bonus to the speed of training skills up to 1.6 mil sp. I didn't remember having that with my main originally, but that boost was welcome.... I trained her learning skills first and remapped my skills acordingly.

Now that My alt is a year old, she has taken her place among the dangerous out there, in her own right. In my opinion, she would never have made it to where she is now without the bunus, the remaps, and the learning skills.

sure the 2+ mil "bonus" sp will serve us well, but will we ever catch our predecessors? We had a chance before.... now they will all be beyond us.

think about your pvp? the better skills/better cool head wins right? what if you can't ever catch them? SOL in my opinion.


I'm not clear on what you think has changed such that now you can't "catch up" whereas before you could?

Dorn Val
Posted - 2010.12.03 12:01:00 - [1863]
 

Edited by: Dorn Val on 03/12/2010 12:03:08
Originally by: Annagallen
...think about your pvp? the better skills/better cool head wins right? what if you can't ever catch them? SOL in my opinion.


Two characters in the exact same frigate, each with the relevant skills to fit / fly the ship at LVL5. One is a year old, and the other is three. How would learning faster be of any benefit to the one year old? I totally fail to see your point unless "catching up" means "training for capitals"...

Elizabeth Mellon
Posted - 2010.12.03 13:25:00 - [1864]
 

Over the past year or so I have become increasingly disillusioned by Eve, with silly bugs, lag, somewhat stale and uninteresting game play annoying little nerfs here and there.

But, I am starting to change my mind. I initially viewed the learning skills going away with quite extreme skepticism as can be attested by a few people on this thread.

However, the more I read about the changes being made and all the little fixes coming in I am starting to feel really positive about Eve again. I think Incursion is really going to be fun to play and something that older and newer players can get something out of.

(PS I haven't been hypnotized or bribed or anything)

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.12.03 16:18:00 - [1865]
 

Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.

I still love this one and still think it applys to this as well.ugh

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.12.03 16:28:00 - [1866]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 03/12/2010 16:28:21
Originally by: Rip Minner
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.

I still love this one and still think it applys to this as well.ugh



I think this is one of the rare cases, where it either doesn't apply or the extend is so minimal, that it doesn't matter or the amount of benefit compared to now will not be shifted.

Dicks Hurrdurr
Posted - 2010.12.03 19:49:00 - [1867]
 

Amazing to see the amount of butthurt coming from the bittervets on this one. Look at it this way: With no learning skills, that means fewer noobs will be tempted to just mine in 1.0 space for 6 months while they build their learning skills. More of them may be tempted to come out of empire space and make themselves into targets.

Plus, why are you crying? You're getting those SP back to redistribute any way you want plus getting an attribute point boost on top of the points you have now. That means leass remapping, and, hey, a fund of SP to put into something now rather than 6 months/1 year from now. INSTANT GRATIFICATION.

Instead of bawwing about losing a bunch of, admittedly, fairly useless skills, plop the SP into some other skill that betters your character plan in the long run. Don't worry bittervets, this isn't going to instantly make the noobs in their rifters a threat to your megathrons. What it will do is add to the game population by making the first 6 months, you know, fun and make the vets more powerful than they are.

DrDoomsayer
Posted - 2010.12.03 22:44:00 - [1868]
 

Edited by: DrDoomsayer on 03/12/2010 22:44:17
Are we going to be compensated for our attribute implants aswell? I spent half a billion on level fives because, +5 was a significant increase over my average of 8 points per attribute. Now, the five points are being added to averages of 20 points per attribute, which of course greatly devalues them. If I knew this was coming over course, I would of settled for level 4 implants and saved 400 Million since it will only be a difference of 5%. I think the implants should be raised to increments of 1.5, to maintain their value.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.12.03 23:08:00 - [1869]
 

Originally by: DrDoomsayer
Are we going to be compensated for our attribute implants aswell?
No, because they're not going away and because their value isn't being diminished. Quite the opposite: they now signify a much larger portion of the increases you can add onto your attribute.

DrDoomsayer
Posted - 2010.12.03 23:37:00 - [1870]
 

Edited by: DrDoomsayer on 03/12/2010 23:51:16
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: DrDoomsayer
Are we going to be compensated for our attribute implants aswell?
No, because they're not going away and because their value isn't being diminished. Quite the opposite: they now signify a much larger portion of the increases you can add onto your attribute.
I strongly disagree. The value of the implants comes from the gain, not the ways in which attributes are obtained. You are argueing that because implants are the only way to obtain an attribute bonus that thier value will increase? that is bogus, what if all attributes were raised to 100? would anyone spend 100 million extra for a +5 when it represents less than a 1% increase from a +4 ? it is a simple rule of economics that abundance of an item reduces cost. If attribute points become twice as abundant then their value will half. It doesn't matter if this abundance is created through free points, learned points or points you purchased off of a purple monkey. There are more points given to each player, and therefore each individual point has less value, end of story.

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.12.03 23:50:00 - [1871]
 

Originally by: DrDoomsayer
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: DrDoomsayer
Are we going to be compensated for our attribute implants aswell?
No, because they're not going away and because their value isn't being diminished. Quite the opposite: they now signify a much larger portion of the increases you can add onto your attribute.
I strongly disagree. The value of the implants comes from the gain, not the ways in which attributes are obtained. You are argueing that because implants are the only way to obtain an attribute bonus that thier value will increase? that is bogus, what if all attributes were raise to 100? would anyone spend 100 million extra for a +5 when it represents less than a 1% from a +4 ? it is a simple rule of economics that abundance of an item reduces cost. If attribute points become twice as abundant than their value will half. It does matter if this abundance is created through free points, learned points or points you purchased off of a purple monkey. There are more points given to each player, and therefore each individual point has less value, end of story.


I'm pretty sure Tippia wasn't talking about the monetary value.

Galstab McGee
Posted - 2010.12.03 23:54:00 - [1872]
 

Edited by: Galstab McGee on 03/12/2010 23:55:00
Originally by: DrDoomsayer
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: DrDoomsayer
Are we going to be compensated for our attribute implants aswell?
No, because they're not going away and because their value isn't being diminished. Quite the opposite: they now signify a much larger portion of the increases you can add onto your attribute.
I strongly disagree. The value of the implants comes from the gain, not the ways in which attributes are obtained. You are arguing that because implants are the only way to obtain an attribute bonus that their value will increase? that is bogus, what if all attributes were raise to 100? would anyone spend 100 million extra for a +5 when it represents less than a 1% from a +4 ? it is a simple rule of economics that abundance of an item reduces cost. If attribute points become twice as abundant than their value will half. It does matter if this abundance is created through free points, learned points or points you purchased off of a purple monkey. There are more points given to each player, and therefore each individual point has less value, end of story.


From your argument you should have no issue with the change as the max obtainable training speed will drop by 3 percent and as such the implants become more valuable to obtain max speed. Proportionally they are doing more, though the difference is negligible. Are you wanting to pay CCP the proportional difference?

DrDoomsayer
Posted - 2010.12.04 00:10:00 - [1873]
 

Edited by: DrDoomsayer on 04/12/2010 00:27:55
Edited by: DrDoomsayer on 04/12/2010 00:11:24
Originally by: Galstab McGee
Edited by: Galstab McGee on 03/12/2010 23:55:00
Originally by: DrDoomsayer
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: DrDoomsayer
Are we going to be compensated for our attribute implants aswell?
No, because they're not going away and because their value isn't being diminished. Quite the opposite: they now signify a much larger portion of the increases you can add onto your attribute.
I strongly disagree. The value of the implants comes from the gain, not the ways in which attributes are obtained. You are arguing that because implants are the only way to obtain an attribute bonus that their value will increase? that is bogus, what if all attributes were raise to 100? would anyone spend 100 million extra for a +5 when it represents less than a 1% from a +4 ? it is a simple rule of economics that abundance of an item reduces cost. If attribute points become twice as abundant than their value will half. It does matter if this abundance is created through free points, learned points or points you purchased off of a purple monkey. There are more points given to each player, and therefore each individual point has less value, end of story.


From your argument you should have no issue with the change as the max obtainable training speed will drop by 3 percent and as such the implants become more valuable to obtain max speed. Proportionally they are doing more, though the difference is negligible. Are you wanting to pay CCP the proportional difference?
You are assuming then that max speed has been reached? Overall, after the change, the average toon will have a far greater number of attribute points than before the change, or, there will be a greater number of overall attribute points in play. It is my arguement that this will devalue the implants which I have spent so much money on. My suggestion was compensation for this fact, or a rebalancing of the implants to say, +1.5 per level to compensate for this fact. Oh and your asserion that the implants are doing more is incorrect, since the implants were adding +5.5 with the learning skill modifier of 10%.

Galstab McGee
Posted - 2010.12.04 00:43:00 - [1874]
 

Edited by: Galstab McGee on 04/12/2010 00:49:38
Originally by: DrDoomsayer
Edited by: DrDoomsayer on 04/12/2010 00:27:55
Edited by: DrDoomsayer on 04/12/2010 00:11:24
From your argument you should have no issue with the change as the max obtainable training speed will drop by 3 percent and as such the implants become more valuable to obtain max speed. Proportionally they are doing more, though the difference is negligible. Are you wanting to pay CCP the proportional difference?
You are assuming then that max speed has been reached? Overall, after the change, the average toon will have a far greater number of attribute points than before the change, or, there will be a greater number of overall attribute points in play. It is my arguement that this will devalue the implants which I have spent so much money on. My suggestion was compensation for this fact, or a rebalancing of the implants to say, +1.5 per level to compensate for this fact. Oh and your asserion that the implants are doing more is incorrect, since the implants were adding +5.5 with the learning skill modifier of 10%.


The fact that many have not reached it does not change the max obtainable rate. Any even though there are more attribute points in play, since they are given equally to all players, the importance of implants is increased overall as they will be one of only 2 remaining ways to get an edge. The other(remaps) can only be used on a yearly basis, but implants can be used at will.

Also, I stated PROPORTIONALLY they were greater. In a maxed out attribute with +5's they account for 17% of the total attribute points, under the new systems it will be 19%

Edit: No your right, I math failed. But really the difference is rather negligible

DrDoomsayer
Posted - 2010.12.04 01:06:00 - [1875]
 

Edited by: DrDoomsayer on 04/12/2010 03:22:25
Edited by: DrDoomsayer on 04/12/2010 01:07:05
Well I guess the real test will be the way the market behaves after the change, my prediction is that in a couple of months, +5's will be worth less than 75 Mill each. If this does not hold true than I suppose my panic was unjustified. Personally, I will never again pay for +5 again at current market prices based on the reasons specified, but I suppose there will always be those with poor math skills who see imagined value in them. I just wish I hadn't bought them, they are worth 2 months of membership and that's how I would have rather spent my isk. If CCP would let me unplug them now, I would be equally as happy.

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.12.04 07:48:00 - [1876]
 

Originally by: Ebisu Kami
Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 03/12/2010 16:28:21
Originally by: Rip Minner
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.

I still love this one and still think it applys to this as well.ugh



I think this is one of the rare cases, where it either doesn't apply or the extend is so minimal, that it doesn't matter or the amount of benefit compared to now will not be shifted.


I can turn this to my favor and only becouse I have the isk and EVE know how. Incursion is the start of the army of alts that will now be much easyer and much faster to train then ever before. The Nations numbers are nothing to the army of alts comeing to all the Vet players soon and cheaply too.ugh

Well at least thoughs that wish to have them and know how to use them.Razz

Juwi Kotch
KOTCH Construction and Anchoring
Posted - 2010.12.04 09:23:00 - [1877]
 

Edited by: Juwi Kotch on 04/12/2010 09:23:35
After coming back from a business trip I just had a look at the eve-online page and found the announcement of the learning skill removal.

The only problem I have with this is that I now have to think about how to distribute over 5.3 mil skillpoints. Something I like to think about.

Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2010.12.04 09:24:00 - [1878]
 

having +5s instead of +4s will be 45 SP/hour (1,080 SP/day, ~395k/year). it'll all come down to ISK, same as now. it's better that it ticks in your head, than slacks in your wallet.

Dasola
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.12.04 12:58:00 - [1879]
 

So based on that blog, if i bother ccp Zulu enough, i can get anything i want in this game? Since clearly hes the one making decisions there.

Can we have science&industry interface rewamp please? it takes 11 click just to launch remote invention job, so about tim to fix that isint it? Didnt take that long to fix PI now did it?

Transfer point
Posted - 2010.12.04 17:57:00 - [1880]
 

Edited by: Transfer point on 04/12/2010 21:54:22
Originally by: Amhana Rhal

..... but will we ever catch our predecessors? We had a chance before.... now they will all be beyond us.



Older chars can afford to buy +4 and +5 implants and go live anywhere they want and chances are they already maxed out their learning skills. I have bad news for you, the only way you can catch them is if their account goes dormant and they stop training, other than that you never had a chance to catch them.

Originally by: Dasola
So based on that blog, if i bother ccp Zulu enough, i can get anything i want in this game? Since clearly hes the one making decisions there.

Can we have science&industry interface rewamp please? it takes 11 click just to launch remote invention job, so about tim to fix that isint it? Didnt take that long to fix PI now did it?


Laughing It's not live and what is available on test is flawed, so I wouldn't rush around saying it's fixed. Just remember past fixesShocked


Darial
Gallente
Dodixie hoes
Posted - 2010.12.04 22:36:00 - [1881]
 

I will give CCP beers at fanfest if they give us 1 neural remap witht his change.
Please?

Noran Talidan
Amarr
Posted - 2010.12.05 04:33:00 - [1882]
 

Edited by: Noran Talidan on 05/12/2010 04:33:50
I like this idea, i really do.

I know alot of the veteran players are winning about this.. But, keep in mind when I was playing the game in '03 when it came out there where no learning skills or any +12 attribute points, lol.

And really, you not loosing all the much.. the so called 'Time; you spent training the skills your getting back.. aka: all of you SP in the category (so whats the big deal).

Who really whats to spend there first few months of the game AFK training the learning skills? I surely didn't! lemme tell ya!

But I do agree with the few posts, everyone should get a free remap to re assess these points as necessary since it does change things a bit.

comb4t womb4t
Posted - 2010.12.05 10:57:00 - [1883]
 

Someone may have already asked this but its too long a thread to find it

Are we being given all the same base stats then + whatever implants we have or will they be stacked just on top of how we remapped.

Are we being given a remap so we can re apply it how we need since our old remapped skills will be FUBAR

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2010.12.05 11:24:00 - [1884]
 

Originally by: comb4t womb4t
Someone may have already asked this but its too long a thread to find it

Are we being given all the same base stats then + whatever implants we have or will they be stacked just on top of how we remapped.

Are we being given a remap so we can re apply it how we need since our old remapped skills will be FUBAR


The attribute change is real simple. Everything stays exactly like it is today with one exception. The only change is, that the attributes you gained from learning skills will get removed and everyone gets 12 points added to all attributes. Nothing else is changing. You only had 14 remappable points in the old system and everything else was unremappable, this will remain exactly the same in the new system. If you remapped for intelligence, you will be remapped for intelligence after the change.

We haven't been promised a remap at this point. The basic balance between attributes stays exactly the same and normal skills aren't affected in any way. In the worst case scenario you might have to extend your current training plan with a few extra skills, if you had learning skills part of that plan. While the changes don't really warrant a remap, we might get one, since there is no real reason not to give one either and it would make the change even more pleasing to the players.

Perky C
Posted - 2010.12.05 13:11:00 - [1885]
 

I think where a lot of the bittervet buthurt comes from is that they are seeing all the lost potential sp that they should have had if these extra attributes were around when they started their characters "my character is X years old and if I had these stats back then I should have an extra Y Million sp"

I do not like the idea of dropping the learning skills but I will just adjust my plans to cover the changes

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.12.05 16:57:00 - [1886]
 

Originally by: Ebisu Kami
Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 03/12/2010 16:28:21
Originally by: Rip Minner
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.

I still love this one and still think it applys to this as well.ugh



I think this is one of the rare cases, where it either doesn't apply or the extend is so minimal, that it doesn't matter or the amount of benefit compared to now will not be shifted.


Older players will be getting a larger absolute advantage, although it could be argued that new players are getting a larger relative advantage.

That argument of course relies on new players being too foolish to realise they shouldn't train 5+5 straight away.

Garekell
Posted - 2010.12.05 21:51:00 - [1887]
 

Sorry if this was asked before but 63 pages too much to read through at the moment. Question I have is do we get reimbursed for partially trained learning skills or is it fully trained levels only?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.12.05 21:53:00 - [1888]
 

Originally by: Garekell
Sorry if this was asked before but 63 pages too much to read through at the moment. Question I have is do we get reimbursed for partially trained learning skills or is it fully trained levels only?
Every last SP you've accumulated in the skills will be returned, full levels or not.

JcJet
Caldari
Pretenders Inc
W-Space
Posted - 2010.12.06 00:30:00 - [1889]
 

Edited by: JcJet on 06/12/2010 00:41:02
Originally by: Transfer point
Edited by: Transfer point on 04/12/2010 21:54:22
Originally by: Amhana Rhal

..... but will we ever catch our predecessors? We had a chance before.... now they will all be beyond us.



Older chars can afford to buy +4 and +5 implants and go live anywhere they want and chances are they already maxed out their learning skills. I have bad news for you, the only way you can catch them is if their account goes dormant and they stop training, other than that you never had a chance to catch them.




Not true :)
Yes, there is no big deal for older players to have 5-5 learnings, implantsm and anything.

It's kinda funny, but i've seen MANY chars with a same amount of sp as me(~90kk) without 5-5 learnings, sometimes it's even 4-3, and weird remaps... So i think i've catched them, because those chars are something like 3 years older than mine...

So now such "trick" will be impossible, because there will be no such loosers anymore, implants didn't do a big difference...
As i've sayed before - good idea of removing useless months of training on a begining, but terrible way to do this, most terrible...
...

Another thing.
Why there is a questions about remaps? I think is obvious for them to just add those attribute to base ones, and do nothing with variable attributes on characters... Well, thinking about this blunt way to remove learnings, i'll not be surprized of another stupid thing, like just reset all attributes and whatever there is be remap or not, ruining a skill plan by messing up with remap periods...

Lysander Kaldenn
Dead Reckoning.
Posted - 2010.12.06 04:43:00 - [1890]
 

Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 06/12/2010 04:45:44



Not true :)
Yes, there is no big deal for older players to have 5-5 learnings, implantsm and anything.

It's kinda funny, but i've seen MANY chars with a same amount of sp as me(~90kk) without 5-5 learnings, sometimes it's even 4-3, and weird remaps... So i think i've catched them, because those chars are something like 3 years older than mine...

So now such "trick" will be impossible, because there will be no such loosers anymore, implants didn't do a big difference...
As i've sayed before - good idea of removing useless months of training on a begining, but terrible way to do this, most terrible...
...



Just because a characters birth date is before yours doesn't mean that they've been subscribed that entire time. Lots of guys who played 3+ years ago quit (because the game was FULL of bad design, like Learning skills...) and came back after subsequent patches. You have no way of proving that they are actually older than you, or that your "investment" and intelligence in training gave you any advantage.

You could never "catch up" because theres no such thing, you don't need to. The way the skill system is setup makes your point irrelevant. You might want to try to gain an actual understanding of the game before posting again.


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