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Dorn Val
Posted - 2010.12.02 08:24:00 - [1831]
 

The tears in this thread are epic Rolling Eyes

The Learning section NEEDS to die -it doesn't do anything to make the game better. Instead of newbs quitting due to the boredom of sitting in station while they train they can now get into a T1 frigate and start exploding in the, uh I mean exploring the Eve Universe.

I thought all you nitwits wanted more peeps in low sec?! Now you're crying about a change that will get more targets into the game?! You'd all whine if you were hung with new ropes Very Happy

If the WoW crowd gets into Eve now that the Learning skills are gone they won't stay long Twisted Evil

IMHO removing the Learning section is proof that the CCP code wizards care about the quality of the game and about the peeps who play it Cool

Por Phyry
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.12.02 13:31:00 - [1832]
 

Originally by: Flashrain
We need a free neural remap since people make 12 month plans based on the old system.

Can't agree more. This is the only way to make this change change really profitable for everyone. I've just remapped my SP and if knew this was coming, I'd have waited.
But still, very glad about these changes.

Syrr Northrope
Posted - 2010.12.02 14:03:00 - [1833]
 

Originally by: Vechter Leider
Thank you very much, CCP. It's a change for the greater good. It's surprising, however, that there are mixed emotions for something so beneficial for everyone.



How is the beneficial to me? I'm maxed 5/5, so it's a nerf for me plain and simple. Now if CCP would just set it to where everyone is at 5/5 maxed level when the skills go away. Then it would be no change for me and a boost for everyone else. As stands right now, I'm getting a nerf and everyone that isn't 5/5 is getting a boost.
Then there is all the time I spent in a frig waiting on the learning skills to train, but that's a whole other ball of wax.

So it's not beneficial to me in any way shape or form.

Syrr Northrope
Posted - 2010.12.02 14:11:00 - [1834]
 

Originally by: Dorn Val

The Learning section NEEDS to die -it doesn't do anything to make the game better. Instead of newbs quitting due to the boredom of sitting in station while they train they can now get into a T1 frigate and start exploding in the, uh I mean exploring the Eve Universe.

I thought all you nitwits wanted more peeps in low sec?! Now you're crying about a change that will get more targets into the game?! You'd all whine if you were hung with new ropes Very Happy

If the WoW crowd gets into Eve now that the Learning skills are gone they won't stay long Twisted Evil

IMHO removing the Learning section is proof that the CCP code wizards care about the quality of the game and about the peeps who play it Cool



I agree, but the point you, and your ilk, seem to miss is...
Those that did the time are getting the shaft. We aren't getting return on the time we put in. We are getting a nerf right off the bat to accommodate the "I want it all and am too lazy to do it, Wahhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaa" crowd.

If CCP would just give me what I worked for and just bring the rest of you up to that same level, I think it would stop the majority of the righteous indignation that is going on on these boards.

But nitwits such as yourself can not see past the end of your nose.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.12.02 14:14:00 - [1835]
 

Originally by: Syrr Northrope
Originally by: Vechter Leider
Thank you very much, CCP. It's a change for the greater good. It's surprising, however, that there are mixed emotions for something so beneficial for everyone.



How is the beneficial to me? I'm maxed 5/5, so it's a nerf for me plain and simple.


A nerf in the sense of you having more usable skillpoints than you otherwise would for the next 8 or 9 years.

Yeah that's easily the worst nerf ever. Oh me oh my, however will you cope under this crushing oppression? Rolling Eyes

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.12.02 14:29:00 - [1836]
 

Originally by: Syrr Northrope
If CCP would just give me what I worked for and just bring the rest of you up to that same level, I think it would stop the majority of the righteous indignation that is going on on these boards.
Apparently not.
Quote:
But nitwits such as yourself can not see past the end of your nose.
No, I think you got that wrong. Dorn Val is for the change because he sees the bigger picture. The ones who can't see past their own noses are the "me me me" crowd who are now crying blood over having more useful SP than they would have gotten over the next 8 years.

Csig CEO
Posted - 2010.12.02 15:32:00 - [1837]
 

Edited by: Csig CEO on 02/12/2010 15:40:50

is my math wrong . . .?

for example:

Analy mind = +5 INT (trained to level 5)
Logic = +5 INT (trained to level 5)
======================
Total gained +10

if Learning is trained to level 5 you get 10% on all attributes = +1 if you have basic and advance skills trained to level 5.

so that is 10 + 1 = 11 to Intelligence. Now add in +5 implants for Intelligence and you get a total of +16 added to your INT (intelligence).

CCP is giving us +12 per stat, that -25% below what you can obtain currently with skill books and implants. -25% on learning may seem trivial but over a long period of time it adds up.

Maybe we all are frogs in a slow boiling pot where as CCP wishes EvE to become a faster paced, less intuitive game? meaning player turner is higher?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.12.02 15:42:00 - [1838]
 

Originally by: Csig CEO
is my math wrong but...
Yes. Because you're forgetting two things…
Quote:
if Learning is trained to level 5 you get 10% on all attributes = +1 if you have basic and advance skills trained to level 5.

so that is 10 + 1 = 11 to Intelligence. Now add in +5 implants for Intelligence and you get a total of +16 added to your INT (intelligence).
No, let's not because then you have to add them in with the attribute bonus as well.
Quote:
CCP is giving us +12 per stat, that -25% below what you can obtain currently with skill books and implants.
You forget to include the implants equally. In your comparison, you either have to look at it as +11 from skill compared to +12 from the bonus, or as +16 from skills+implants compared to +17 from bonus+implants.

Second of all, you're forgetting about remaps. With 15 base points (max) and +5 implants, the skills can actually add 13 points, not just 11 (15+5+10 = 30. Add 10% from learning and you get 33). So yes, in the maxed-out example, you get slightly lower attributes with the new system — 3% lower to be exact. If you have all-V and completely minmaxed attributes, you get 32/26 in your primary and secondary with the new system, compared to 33/26.4 with the old one. This means you accumulate 1.2 SP less per minute (72 less per hour), but by the time you notice this in the amount of useful SP you have, you'll already be 200 million(!) SP down the road and most likely not care much about new skill levels any more…

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.12.02 15:50:00 - [1839]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 02/12/2010 15:53:27
Originally by: Csig CEO
is my math wrong but...

for example:

Analy mind = +5 INT (trained to level 5)
Logic = +5 INT (trained to level 5)
======================
Total gained +10

if Learning is trained to level 5 you get 10% on all attributes = +1 if you have basic and advance skills trained to level 5.

so that is 10 + 1 = 11 to Intelligence. Now add in +5 implants for Intelligence and you get a total of +16 added to your INT (intelligence).


Um, the Learning skill also includes base points, so the base bonus from each learning skill to V is (3+5+5)*0.1=1.3. Also implant-bonus and freely allocateable points are multiplied, too.
The current max is: (3 [base] + 5 [basic learning] + 5 [advanced learning] + 5 [implant] + 10 [free points]) * 1.1 = 30.8
New max will be: 15 [base] + 5 [implant] + 10 [free points] = 30

Originally by: Csig CEO
CCP is giving us +12 per stat, that -25% below what you can obtain currently with skill books and implants. -25% on learning may seem trivial but over a long period of time it adds up.


30 out of 30.8 equals about 97.4%, so we loose a grand total maximum of 2.6%. No -25% mumbo-jumbo. I'm not quite certain, where you take that figure from, since neither allocatable points nor implants are going to be removed.

Oh and the long period of time is about 8 years, assuming you had 5/5 learning and do invest your reimbursed SP.

Kuntakinte NL
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.12.02 16:14:00 - [1840]
 

I m gonna use the SP to train for a Drake :P

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.12.02 16:19:00 - [1841]
 

Originally by: Kuntakinte NL
I m gonna use the SP to train for a Drake :P


I love this answerugh

Tza Omi
Posted - 2010.12.02 17:40:00 - [1842]
 

Originally by: Syrr Northrope
Originally by: Vechter Leider
Thank you very much, CCP. It's a change for the greater good. It's surprising, however, that there are mixed emotions for something so beneficial for everyone.



How is the beneficial to me? I'm maxed 5/5, so it's a nerf for me plain and simple. Now if CCP would just set it to where everyone is at 5/5 maxed level when the skills go away. Then it would be no change for me and a boost for everyone else. As stands right now, I'm getting a nerf and everyone that isn't 5/5 is getting a boost.
Then there is all the time I spent in a frig waiting on the learning skills to train, but that's a whole other ball of wax.

So it's not beneficial to me in any way shape or form.


Except for the second level charisma skill I have all mine 5/5 and I have the second level charisma skill at 3, when this happens I will be refunded over 4.6 mil sp's this is NOT a nerf, and I'm looking forward to spending them.

JcJet
Caldari
Pretenders Inc
W-Space
Posted - 2010.12.02 20:41:00 - [1843]
 

Edited by: JcJet on 02/12/2010 20:42:14
Well, anyway, that's another **** for not-noobs.
And whine is same as when they introduced neural remaps:
Noobs and idiots only sees those precious "free" sp, others see a whole picture, but noone cares, because first 98% ppl is far more proffitable for ccp. It's always been and be so, and there will be even more **** in future, when all ppl calm down, like with remaps.
Well, anyway, i fed up with all those implementations that alwys good only to casual noobs, so for me it'll be no matter in a year or so, when i spend all my isk, finish last plans and sell my 3 accounts... Just because i want to see incarna :)

Cheresznye
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.02 20:43:00 - [1844]
 

To put it simply:

CCP RULEZ! Laughing

Wellcome, Grey Wizard, to hell with the learning skillz! Twisted Evil

Csig CEO
Posted - 2010.12.02 21:05:00 - [1845]
 

i think we were just trying to point out that the change is a nerf to older players and a bonus to younger players. The other subtle point was that CCP is "slowly" making this game more 12 year old like: lazy and easy :) i have a 12 year old i know I am quoting this one correctly.

Are we whining? nope, just making a statement that is fact (the nerf, the 12 yr old comment is conjecture) :P

Originally by: JcJet
Edited by: JcJet on 02/12/2010 20:42:14
Well, anyway, that's another **** for not-noobs.
And whine is same as when they introduced neural remaps:
Noobs and idiots only sees those precious "free" sp, others see a whole picture, but noone cares, because first 98% ppl is far more proffitable for ccp. It's always been and be so, and there will be even more **** in future, when all ppl calm down, like with remaps.
Well, anyway, i fed up with all those implementations that alwys good only to casual noobs, so for me it'll be no matter in a year or so, when i spend all my isk, finish last plans and sell my 3 accounts... Just because i want to see incarna :)

Radge Ascanbe
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.02 21:17:00 - [1846]
 

Will there be a re-map available on the 14th whn the learning skills go? I have tried a search but can't see it anywhere. Thanks.

Personally I spent a long time training my learning all to lvl 5, but am looking forward to re-distributing the 5.3 mill sp's :)

Thermodynamics lvl 5 and Advanced Weapon Upgrades lvl 5 here I come!

Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury
Posted - 2010.12.02 23:05:00 - [1847]
 

Edited by: Joss56 on 02/12/2010 23:15:50
Originally by: Csig CEO
i think we were just trying to point out that the change is a nerf to older players and a bonus to younger players.


I dont think you realy understand yourself and how can you speak in "vet's" name.

1rst off all, prove me that all vet's have theyre lvl5 learning skills

2nd never forget that your char has already ben noob so, or you've buyed it at toons bazar with skil points that you haven't trained so you don't know what you are talking about.

3rd noobs etc etc has you were in some past time, have some first leçons when they start this ****ing game:

-the first one is those cans posted by ******ed deviants in front of your stations with "free stuff take it"

-the second one is what ANYONE in this game tells you before saying "goodmorning": Train your ****ing learning skils


So, noobs "wow" crowd etc can help your argues but i can't accept them as long has you speak for all vet's and you confuse all noobs.
ugh


EDIT: i think that i'm not the only guy here playing several accounts wich means, 1 char for playing fast and 1 training learning skils to the top.
I hate general meanings, it's like saying "all blacks are dealers" or "all muslims are fanatics" and so on.

Consider the idea that you are wrong and that even "noobs" train theyre ****ing learning skils. You train your skils either you play or not, you should be afraid the day CCP says that you'll only train skils when you play, this day i agree, "wow" nobbs will eat you in a few weeks.
Twisted Evil

Cyron Logus
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2010.12.02 23:39:00 - [1848]
 

Although this is simply yet another "yay" or "nay" to this voluminous thread (and this is a "yay")...

I must say that this change is working out beautifully! While a I can understand the spirit of a Learning system (possibly weeding out those seeking quick fixes and rewarding those in for the long haul) I think that it is just too ponderous and adds yet another layer of complexity which makes it's implementation exponentially harder (and thus more apt to fail) in proportion to the actual "real world" benefit to the players both present and future.

While I'm all for more simple way of doing things, I have to nod with a smile on my face when I see how "beautifully" the numbers work out (that comment on the 20/20/20/20/19 matrix in the blog, to be specific). It's a testament to the fact that these people have really been making a quality product since the beginning. Had it been "slap-shod", changing something like this would have been nigh impossible; as in, pulling one string would have unraveled the whole tapestry. Bravo, CCP. Bravo...

I'll take my 1 point hit in a couple of skills and will gladly be spending my millions of points when the change takes effect. Other than that, the OCD Perfectionist in me is still royally urinated off since I was just >THIS< close to finishing off my last two Learning skill points (what would have taken a month)... You heartless bastards... Hehehehe... :P

Chiselhead
Posted - 2010.12.03 00:37:00 - [1849]
 

I'm sorry but I'm not with you guys on this one. First the only complaint I have ever hearSadSadd in 3 years of playing was only recently from Greyscale. Here is what your not considering, well maybe you are but you possibly don't care. This skill set although boring to train is what will give new players thier biggest advantage just like it gave players such as myself an advantage with training to try to make up for the differance of not starting way back in the beggining, its really quite simple you train the skills, older player probably won't cuz they are all ready uber if they actually had played. Its really quite simple train the skills then you end up with higher attributes than someone else, so now you can train faster than they do, wow thats pretty sweet. But now we will all be carbon copies, pretty sad in my estimation. And now that edge we used to have in skill training gets the flush.

Mayham Jack
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.03 01:10:00 - [1850]
 

Well this is eve and as a community eve has to evolve and change. I dislike the change of the learning skills, i spent the 6 months training all the training skills up to 5, but we all have to look at the skill points they are giving back to us for our time, yes its not all the time spent on the learning skills, but this way we can redistube them to more effective pilot or keep them in a piggy bank till we need em. At least this last patch wasnt too bad... not so many patches to fix a previous patch now lets hope the Dec 14th patch goes as smooth

Amhana Rhal
Posted - 2010.12.03 01:15:00 - [1851]
 

Chiselhead has a point here. When I started at the end of 2007, I'll have to admit..... I was a bit overwhelmed by the scope of the skill training.

I am the exception to the rule here though, i had guidence to train my learning skills first to help "even the field" with my friends that started this game 2 months before me.

Once my learning skills were up to par, my other skills fell in to line nicely and I started catching up.

I started an alternate character about a year ago and was surprised to find that the alt recieved a 100% bonus to the speed of training skills up to 1.6 mil sp. I didn't remember having that with my main originally, but that boost was welcome.... I trained her learning skills first and remapped my skills acordingly.

Now that My alt is a year old, she has taken her place among the dangerous out there, in her own right. In my opinion, she would never have made it to where she is now without the bunus, the remaps, and the learning skills.

sure the 2+ mil "bonus" sp will serve us well, but will we ever catch our predecessors? We had a chance before.... now they will all be beyond us.

think about your pvp? the better skills/better cool head wins right? what if you can't ever catch them? SOL in my opinion.

Milk Butter
Posted - 2010.12.03 01:15:00 - [1852]
 

Well, it seems this change is going to happen even if your customers don’t want it, big business. I wonder how many people will switch over to WOW. I wonder what I will use my reimbursement points on.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.12.03 01:24:00 - [1853]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 03/12/2010 01:26:33
Originally by: Milk Butter
Well, it seems this change is going to happen even if a minority of your customers don’t want it, big business.
Fixed.
Originally by: Amhana Rhal
sure the 2+ mil "bonus" sp will serve us well, but will we ever catch our predecessors? We had a chance before.... now they will all be beyond us.

think about your pvp? the better skills/better cool head wins right? what if you can't ever catch them? SOL in my opinion.
You've always been able to "catch up", and the removal of learning skills doesn't change that in any way.

Zemfadel
Posted - 2010.12.03 03:34:00 - [1854]
 

HOLY $H*T QUIT COMPLAINING!!!!!!!

The decision has been made, the learning skills WILL be removed. No one cares about your senseless complaining, leave this thread for concerns and suggestion on the implementation of "The Plan" not arguing that it should or shouldn't happen. Your whining is just taking up space and diluting what could otherwise be a useful thread for the devs

62 pages! f*** you people are worthless

Shiddy Smell
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.12.03 05:15:00 - [1855]
 

Why oh why do people keep bleating on about no longer being able to catch up, skills go to level 5, you can't train them beyond that. This means that once you have level 5 in a skill, you have caught up with everyone who has that skill at level 5, unless I'm missing something, and "vets" get extra levels after playing for a certain amount of time.

Dorn Val
Posted - 2010.12.03 06:58:00 - [1856]
 

Originally by: Syrr Northrope
Originally by: Dorn Val

The Learning section NEEDS to die -it doesn't do anything to make the game better. Instead of newbs quitting due to the boredom of sitting in station while they train they can now get into a T1 frigate and start exploding in the, uh I mean exploring the Eve Universe.

I thought all you nitwits wanted more peeps in low sec?! Now you're crying about a change that will get more targets into the game?! You'd all whine if you were hung with new ropes Very Happy

If the WoW crowd gets into Eve now that the Learning skills are gone they won't stay long Twisted Evil

IMHO removing the Learning section is proof that the CCP code wizards care about the quality of the game and about the peeps who play it Cool



I agree, but the point you, and your ilk, seem to miss is...
Those that did the time are getting the shaft. We aren't getting return on the time we put in. We are getting a nerf right off the bat to accommodate the "I want it all and am too lazy to do it, Wahhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaa" crowd.

If CCP would just give me what I worked for and just bring the rest of you up to that same level, I think it would stop the majority of the righteous indignation that is going on on these boards. But nitwits such as yourself can not see past the end of your nose.


*Sigh*

I almost didn't reply, since you've resorted to insults -forgive me for not stooping to your level...

The "nerf" you're referring to would take over a year to be felt by a character with your skill points -if it would even be noticeable. I do agree that there should be a +1 attribute increase to cover your loss, so that no one gets hosed in the change. But to call 72 SP per hour a "nerf"?! Please...

As for the time you spent in the Learning section: We all spent time in it, granted some more than others, but we're all getting that "time" back in the form of SP to redistribute to skills that will actually help us play the game better. I look at it like I've been putting money into a no interest bank account and now I'm getting it back.

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.12.03 06:58:00 - [1857]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 03/12/2010 01:26:33
Originally by: Milk Butter
Well, it seems this change is going to happen even if a ? of your customers don’t want it, big business.
Fixed.
Originally by: Amhana Rhal
sure the 2+ mil "bonus" sp will serve us well, but will we ever catch our predecessors? We had a chance before.... now they will all be beyond us.

think about your pvp? the better skills/better cool head wins right? what if you can't ever catch them? SOL in my opinion.
You've always been able to "catch up", and the removal of learning skills doesn't change that in any way.


Now it's fixed becouse nether of you can speak for everyone.ugh

PaintballFreak
Posted - 2010.12.03 08:14:00 - [1858]
 

I'm enjoying the whine you nerfed my weeks of training advanced to 5....

which amusses me no end because what thsi actually proves is these peopel are either ALTs or fail to understand the basic concepts of efficency which undermine the game.

An adition 1.5Sp (+1 +(0.5*1)) generates an adition 800k SP a year, how ever it takes a month to achive this so in affect in the first year you only gain an additonal 600k SP. How ever you counter part who trained the advanced to 4. Gains an aditional 1.6mil SP for there first month with them, which you loose trainnig the things.

so in the long run you wasted time trainnign skills for that additonal plus 1 attribute which fail to pay off till you reach 2-3 years of age and now your getting 3-5mil free SP anywhere which will complete those really god awful skills such as jump drive cal 5 and you complaining????

Eve is a game which has always done its upmost to reward the inventive and the inteligent. Never he who played the most, If you want that your sub'd to the wrong game.

CycoChick
Posted - 2010.12.03 08:29:00 - [1859]
 

When I look at all these pages and try to make any sense of whats going on here, I wake up on the floor drunk again.

Headaches are secondary.

Annagallen
Posted - 2010.12.03 08:53:00 - [1860]
 

Edited by: Annagallen on 03/12/2010 09:04:34
So... I have an alt character (Annadari) that has all 5's in the learning catagory. She has 5,376,000 SP in Learning. She also has, (including implants) attributes of 33, 23, 19, 22 and 24. She trains skills that have Intelligence as primary, VERY FAST. I do not see how losing 50+10% = 55 points, and gaining back only 12 is a reasonable thing. I trained all those to level 5 for a reason: longterm gain. :-/ I think that the 5,376,000 SP will help, however that will be only about 4 months worth of SP I think. My main, is still not all 5's in Learning, because it is boring to train. But with an alt, it is wonderful that we could partially ignore that character for a few months, and especially with the new character/account bonus, get those trained up very fast. This change is good for new mains, but not nearly so good for the alts I think. But maybe my math is wrong?


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