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Vindi D'Cater
Posted - 2010.11.30 12:38:00 - [1771]
 

Originally by: Zaand Schtvaal
Not that my opinion is ever going to be seen by anyone relegated to page 47, nor is it going to change anything since the update is already being implemented, but I feel like I need to get this off my chest.

I for one have to agree with the dissenters on this one. The whole appeal of EVE to many players is the complexity and level of commitment required. There is no such thing as a "casual" pilot. It's the running joke that EVE has a vertical learning curve and in my opinion it's necessary to separate the wheat from the chaff. I understand that CCP is a business and needs to bring in new customers to increase their profits, but I feel as if it is at the expense of the loyal veteran pilots.

Learning skills are not a requirement to play. No one held a gun to your head and forced you to queue them up. Personally when I started playing, I took the time to read the faq's and the forums and learned that they would help out drastically in the long run. So I trained some of the funner skills first, and then once I decided that EVE was worth a long term commitment, I took the time to max out learning skills. No, it wasn't any fun, but it was a long term investment and I am a better player now for it. I also spent a lot of very hard earned ISK early on in the game to purchase these skill books. Sure, a few tens of millions is not a lot to a seasoned pilot, but to someone who spent days grinding level 2's as a noob just to afford one book, it's a huge loss.

Now it feels as if CCP is spiting all of us loyal customers who were smart and patient in the past, just to hand the game over to new players on a silver platter. I welcome newcomers, but if they don't learn the dedication required to play and enjoy EVE early on, then it does neither us nor them any good.

EVE is very much a niche game, with a specific target player base. It is not like any other game on the market, both in originality and complexity, and that's why we play it. I am proud to play a game with such a selective crowd, and know that it is better than any other dime-a-dozen MMO. I was also proud every time I saw those level 5 grey boxes across the board in my learning tab because of the sacrifices that I made for them and because I knew that I was a better pod pilot for it.

I love EVE, and I still think that CCP is one of the best game developers that I have ever seen with one of the best development teams. I understand that to keep the game competitive it must be upgraded and modified; but doing so at the expense of dumbing it down is not the way to go about it. Embrace your fringe status and relish in it.


DITTO!!

Hex'Caliber
Gallente
Massively Mob
Posted - 2010.11.30 12:40:00 - [1772]
 

Edited by: Hex''Caliber on 30/11/2010 12:42:17
Originally by: Beltan Kelara
It is very easy to see why the big push to get this done right now and not really put all the thought just some of the thought in to it... A new MMO was just released on November 25th that stands to compete with EVE. One server, player owned market, PVP, online/offline skill point generation, manufacturing, mining, PVG (Player vs. Game), and cheaper than EVE at $9.95 a month... No noob wants to learn learning skills I get that, but penalizing those who actually trained it should be a sign to everyone that this is a bad choice. How will you react when they nerf your fleet battles to just 10 ships since with all the new players then can not support the lag? Take a look at the new MMO. I testing it as I type this and I'm impressed. Good luck CCP.

Perpetuum


CCP have nothing to fear from this title, it is nothing more than a poor eve clone (despite perpetuum's dev claims to the contrary). With a fraction of the depth, playability, choice and real estate. Twelve or twenty four months down the road, it may be a different story but it threatens no other mmo in its current state.

Dinak Khnid
Posted - 2010.11.30 12:42:00 - [1773]
 

Originally by: Elizabeth Mellon
Not refunding people for purchased skill books is basically theft. As the blog entry points out - the decision to not refund OR reimburse for these books will cost Eve players 16 TRILLION ISK.

This is ISK that players have EARNED.

I don't find it acceptable for players, including me, to lose 16 TRILLION ISK. Thats equivalent to 40 THOUSAND PLEXES @ 400 MILL ISK.

Or to put it another way - 600,000 EUROS OF PLAYER MONEY.

This 'development' represents PAY DAY for CCP.

Not acceptable. And very disrespectful - especially to older players for whom some skillbooks cost MORE than a single PLEX!



Evil or Very Mad

Hex'Caliber
Gallente
Massively Mob
Posted - 2010.11.30 13:09:00 - [1774]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Oh, definitely. Remaps are always welcome. There's just not much about this change that would warrant one, and if he managed to remap-block himself it's because he didn't think ahead, not because of the skill removal.

Will pick up on this from a slightly different direction; many players were "thinking ahead" after CCP announced plex for remaps were incoming. It was not some rumour, it would likely have been included in today's patch, had not a few players who do not pay for subs, whined using the micro transaction argument as a smoke screen, because they feared plex value was going up as a result.

It is not impossible that he, as many others did, remapped to an extreme attribute layout "thinking ahead" planning to get certain long skill trains out of the way intending a remap to more normalised values shortly after the new system was available.

Because this change is related to attribute distribution, those who were negatively affected by CCP's about face, are looking for any banner they can, to request an extra remap to undo the damage their " thinking ahead " caused to skill training over the next year.

Vindi D'Cater
Posted - 2010.11.30 13:10:00 - [1775]
 

Originally by: Zsel Gant
Originally by: Elizabeth Mellon
Not refunding people for purchased skill books is basically theft.

Posting stupid comments like that is basically eating babies.
Yay Hyperbole!


How so? Isk was spent on the skillbooks. No reimbursement for those purchases is being made. Is the equivalent to theft - not a stupid comment.

The CCP Stooge Support is very active this thread as usual. Enough of us see beyond the usual tripe spewed. Most vets I've spoke to are contemplating Haoc or the DC game coming as a replacement to this. CCP looking after it's bottom line sacrificing those loyal players that have stuck with through thick and thin. This corporate theft of all our investment is unacceptable and forcing choices to be made: PLAY EVE OR GO!!!

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.30 13:16:00 - [1776]
 

Originally by: Vindi D'Cater

The CCP Stooge Support is very active this thread as usual. Enough of us see beyond the usual tripe spewed. Most vets I've spoke to are contemplating Haoc or the DC game coming as a replacement to this. CCP looking after it's bottom line sacrificing those loyal players that have stuck with through thick and thin. This corporate theft of all our investment is unacceptable and forcing choices to be made: PLAY EVE OR GO!!!

Tell 'em Ranka said hi. And can I have their stuff, please? :)

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.11.30 13:19:00 - [1777]
 

Originally by: Hex'Caliber
Will pick up on this from a slightly different direction; many players were "thinking ahead" after CCP announced plex for remaps were incoming. It was not some rumour, it would likely have been included in today's patch, had not a few players who do not pay for subs, whined using the micro transaction argument as a smoke screen, because they feared plex value was going up as a result. [etc]
Actually, I can readily buy this argument, but with two caveats: one is that it still doesn't have anything to do with the removal of learning skills and that thus change thus don't warrant an additional remap (but you kind of hint at this yourself).

The other is that, while it was not just a rumour, but something that was actually in testing, it was still not something that they had announced a release date for. It was still a feature "in development". Even if CCP had chosen to go through with it, there's nothing that really says we would have been given it now… so in the end, it rather has the same effect as acting on a rumour: they're hedging a switch in strategy on a non-scheduled proposition.

Personally, I'd still lean towards a "meh, wait until it's out" kind of answer (because I'm a heartless bastard that way), but I'd be far more sympathetic to rectifying this kind of planning mistake since it was based on something CCP officially was moving towards, than to trying to squeeze a remap out of a change that shouldn't affect remaps to any greater extent.

Xerreckaitesa
Posted - 2010.11.30 13:55:00 - [1778]
 

I have a couple of problems with this change.

I agree with those who have discussed the fact that not repaying the Isk spent on skillbooks is just theft. At 3 years in game, 20M is nothing to me now, but when I bought those books, it required a major portion of my Isk. With 8 accounts (that I admit to), this is a major blow to me.

More importantly, is what this change is going to do to the game. You're going to see an over-whelming number of players realize that they can now train a griefer alt in little time. Half the challenge of this game was planning your skills as a new player in such a way as to include the Learning skills as soon as possible for the long term benefit. With this change, we're going to see 2 month old alts in BC's terrorizing the universe. Game is unsafe enough already for us industrial types. Although it was funny to watch a would-be ganker lose his Typhoon trying to gank my Itty 5 that was stronger and faster than he thought.


The game has always been designed for the long-term player. CCP is changing that, trying to dumb down the game and speed it up so one does not have to wait 6 months for the skills to venture out of Empire. With X-Mas approaching, I forsee hoards of children, with their new Eve box, filling the universe looking to fight whatever. The game is being designed away from us older (in game and in RL) players. I'm not sure if I can live with this, I have the feeling that this is the next to last straw for me. Time to start looking for another game.

Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury
Posted - 2010.11.30 14:28:00 - [1779]
 

Edited by: Joss56 on 30/11/2010 14:28:43
Quote:
Not refunding people for purchased skill books is basically theft. As the blog entry points out - the decision to not refund OR reimburse for these books will cost Eve players 16 TRILLION ISK.

This is ISK that players have EARNED.

I don't find it acceptable for players, including me, to lose 16 TRILLION ISK. Thats equivalent to 40 THOUSAND PLEXES @ 400 MILL ISK.

Or to put it another way - 600,000 EUROS OF PLAYER MONEY.

This 'development' represents PAY DAY for CCP.

Not acceptable. And very disrespectful - especially to older players for whom some skillbooks cost MORE than a single PLEX!



This person is making somme mistake, so youre whining for all those books that you use for scam or something else.

Youre whinig about one global players loose of 16trillions of isk and compare with euros..and get in full rage when someone tells you that when you abuse of plex on your account CCP looses real money.

I've read a lot of idiot comments in this thread but this one earns one gold medal.

Please be kind and contract me your stuff, i take every single item you give even Meta1 for reprocess, leave the game get out of that dark room where you live since a few months now and take some fresh air, read newspapers listen some music and you can eve find yourself a job and become someone usefull in real life to the real community.

(No i'm not english native so blabla don't give a **** about idiots coments)

Dav Varan
Posted - 2010.11.30 14:47:00 - [1780]
 

Edited by: Dav Varan on 30/11/2010 14:47:00
Originally by: Xerreckaitesa
I have a couple of problems with this change.

I agree with those who have discussed the fact that not repaying the Isk spent on skillbooks is just theft. At 3 years in game, 20M is nothing to me now, but when I bought those books, it required a major portion of my Isk. With 8 accounts (that I admit to), this is a major blow to me.

More importantly, is what this change is going to do to the game. You're going to see an over-whelming number of players realize that they can now train a griefer alt in little time. Half the challenge of this game was planning your skills as a new player in such a way as to include the Learning skills as soon as possible for the long term benefit. With this change, we're going to see 2 month old alts in BC's terrorizing the universe. Game is unsafe enough already for us industrial types. Although it was funny to watch a would-be ganker lose his Typhoon trying to gank my Itty 5 that was stronger and faster than he thought.


The game has always been designed for the long-term player. CCP is changing that, trying to dumb down the game and speed it up so one does not have to wait 6 months for the skills to venture out of Empire. With X-Mas approaching, I forsee hoards of children, with their new Eve box, filling the universe looking to fight whatever. The game is being designed away from us older (in game and in RL) players. I'm not sure if I can live with this, I have the feeling that this is the next to last straw for me. Time to start looking for another game.



So ccp trained all you learning skills to 5 ( whether you had the book or not ) and now you want the money you spent on them back again ?

I say ok

Give idiots like you the option.
Put a tick box somewhere.

If you tick the box you get your isk back for any skill books you brought.
You have all the +12 boosts removed and stay on 5/5/5/5/5 base stats for ever more.

Elizabeth Mellon
Posted - 2010.11.30 14:56:00 - [1781]
 

Ever more, ever more. Cellar Door.
-Quoteth the Navy Raven

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.11.30 15:16:00 - [1782]
 

Originally by: Elizabeth Mellon
Ever more, ever more. Cellar Door.
-Quoteth the Navy Raven


Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Grogen
Gallente
United Federation
Posted - 2010.11.30 18:13:00 - [1783]
 

Outstanding Changes, But I have been reading and reading. I dont see any place. How we getting Skill points to learn other things ? How is the new system going to work ?

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.11.30 18:53:00 - [1784]
 

Originally by: Grogen
Outstanding Changes, But I have been reading and reading. I dont see any place. How we getting Skill points to learn other things ? How is the new system going to work ?


That's because this change will only happen on the 14th, not today. Just check your skills-tab on 14th, after the patch.

Sarnel Binora
Posted - 2010.11.30 18:53:00 - [1785]
 

I have mixed emotions about this nerf. Is it good for me? Yes. Is it good for newbs? They'll never know. Do I like the fact that, basically speaking, everyone can train at exactly the same pace? Not really. EvE has never been about equality. Why start now?

Originally by: Rian O'Shea
I have all 5 learning skills. How the F can I now feel superior over other people CCP!




... Don't you mean all 11 learning skills? Cause that's what I have. Do you feel superior to me?Wink

Swidgen
Posted - 2010.11.30 19:54:00 - [1786]
 

Originally by: Xerreckaitesa
More importantly, is what this change is going to do to the game. You're going to see an over-whelming number of players realize that they can now train a griefer alt in little time.

The next Hulkageddon should see record participation. And the long-rumored LOLCP banning of those who abuse disposable griefer alts will fail to materialize once again. Not that I care, I want to get in on the next Hulkageddon Cool

Dmoney3788
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.11.30 20:49:00 - [1787]
 

Originally by: Sarnel Binora
I have mixed emotions about this nerf. Is it good for me? Yes. Is it good for newbs? They'll never know. Do I like the fact that, basically speaking, everyone can train at exactly the same pace? Not really. EvE has never been about equality. Why start now?


Exactly. Lets move along with plex for remap then. So the people with more isk/$$$/€/etc. have a greater advantage. Capitalism ITT.

Tasko Pal
Aliastra
Posted - 2010.11.30 21:32:00 - [1788]
 

Originally by: Sarnel Binora
I have mixed emotions about this nerf. Is it good for me? Yes. Is it good for newbs? They'll never know. Do I like the fact that, basically speaking, everyone can train at exactly the same pace? Not really. EvE has never been about equality. Why start now?


You still have remaps. Sure, if you follow the same training schedule and remap at the same time with the same implants, then you can get the same training outcome. That's always been true. But very different remaps give very different training times.

Grogen
Gallente
United Federation
Posted - 2010.11.30 22:50:00 - [1789]
 

Originally by: Ebisu Kami
Originally by: Grogen
Outstanding Changes, But I have been reading and reading. I dont see any place. How we getting Skill points to learn other things ? How is the new system going to work ?


That's because this change will only happen on the 14th, not today. Just check your skills-tab on 14th, after the patch.


Well Yes I know the Changes are not today, And you did not answer notting. Anyone have a clue as to the New system ? is it who has the most money buys the skills to do what you want to do and you have the skill ?

Shiddy Smell
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.11.30 22:56:00 - [1790]
 

Only the skills in the learning category are being removed, all other skills will remain. Your attributes from the learning skills will also be removed and replaced with +12 attributes across the board.

Xerreckaitesa
Posted - 2010.11.30 23:01:00 - [1791]
 

Originally by: Dav Varan
Edited by: Dav Varan on 30/11/2010 14:47:00
Originally by: Xerreckaitesa
I have a couple of problems with this change.

I agree with those who have discussed the fact that not repaying the Isk spent on skillbooks is just theft. At 3 years in game, 20M is nothing to me now, but when I bought those books, it required a major portion of my Isk. With 8 accounts (that I admit to), this is a major blow to me.

More importantly, is what this change is going to do to the game. You're going to see an over-whelming number of players realize that they can now train a griefer alt in little time. Half the challenge of this game was planning your skills as a new player in such a way as to include the Learning skills as soon as possible for the long term benefit. With this change, we're going to see 2 month old alts in BC's terrorizing the universe. Game is unsafe enough already for us industrial types. Although it was funny to watch a would-be ganker lose his Typhoon trying to gank my Itty 5 that was stronger and faster than he thought.


The game has always been designed for the long-term player. CCP is changing that, trying to dumb down the game and speed it up so one does not have to wait 6 months for the skills to venture out of Empire. With X-Mas approaching, I forsee hoards of children, with their new Eve box, filling the universe looking to fight whatever. The game is being designed away from us older (in game and in RL) players. I'm not sure if I can live with this, I have the feeling that this is the next to last straw for me. Time to start looking for another game.



So ccp trained all you learning skills to 5 ( whether you had the book or not ) and now you want the money you spent on them back again ?

I say ok

Give idiots like you the option.
Put a tick box somewhere.

If you tick the box you get your isk back for any skill books you brought.
You have all the +12 boosts removed and stay on 5/5/5/5/5 base stats for ever more.


And you completely miss the point. CCP is shortening the game, making it easier and quicker to level up. The best part of this game was the fact that you had to think and plan ahead. A few more changes like this and we'll just have another WoW where 3 months into the game you've basically finished it.

ShaDeY StAlKEr
Posted - 2010.11.30 23:28:00 - [1792]
 

I understand not wanting to reimburse players for the skill books and in part I agree. However in a way I feel that the vets of this game are getting the raw end of the deal. In the beginning, in order to train t2 learning skills you had to first train t1 skills to lvl 5, and only then you could start training t2... CCP nerf'd it, made it so that you could start training t2 after lvl 4 on t1. Now when you start off as a newb or not you now have 12 across the board. While you say this will help with newb retention, what about vet retention. For most of us to get to 5 mil or more in learning skills, it took months and months of dedicated training to obtain, and yet we are just handing this off to the newb population as a “here you go” .. If I may I would like to make a suggestion that may help ease the pain.. Lets say a vet has overall 71 mil in skill points, and with his/her learning skills maxed out, instead of just reimbursing the 5-6 mil he/she has in the learning skills, reward them with a 10 percent bonus of overall skillpoints. In essence not only will he/she get 5 mil skillpoints back on the skillpoints used for learning skills, but a 7.1 mil in skillpoint bonus (this to make up for the time spent on training those skills in the first place). The more you have, the more you get, the less you have the less you get. MAYBE this might ease the pains of those that suffered the punishment of training those pesky learning skills. It’s just a thought ..

Abbrakhan Nale
Minmatar
LVNA Foundation
Posted - 2010.11.30 23:32:00 - [1793]
 

Well, looks like it's all been said already. I salute all the nay-sayers on this decision to remove Learning Skills from the game. You've all said it better than I could have. Fixing something that isn't broken is a great waste of time and ingenuity. Still, EVE is a great game, probably the best I've ever played. Just mark me down for one 'opposed' if you would, please.

Doucan94
Posted - 2010.12.01 03:49:00 - [1794]
 

That's bad.

Rakivic
Estrale Frontiers
Posted - 2010.12.01 04:19:00 - [1795]
 

I like this idea and cant wait for it to go "live". It's going to help out new players so they can get right down to training "usable" skills instead of wasting time on learning skills

I also find it so amusing that so many people are apposed to this idea for their own shellfish gains instead of thinking of the game as a whole. It's not like your not getting your skill points back, so it's not a "total" waist of training time.

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.12.01 05:33:00 - [1796]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 01/12/2010 05:43:01
Originally by: Grogen
Well Yes I know the Changes are not today, And you did not answer notting.


Must have misinterpreted what you actually asked for, because part of what you ask now, is quite different from what you wrote above. Anyways:

Originally by: Grogen
Anyone have a clue as to the New system ?


Gonna try it again: Changes will hit TQ on 14th. Your Learning skills will be removed both from your skill-list and your skill-queue (in the later case forwarding whatever is behind on your list) and the complete amount of SP, which you had in Learning skills, will be placed in a "fund". You'll see the amount in your skills-tab of your character sheet. You can freely distribute these points to sub-level 5 skills, by right-clicking on the skill's entry in your list and selecting the proper option in the context-menu.


Originally by: Grogen
is it who has the most money buys the skills to do what you want to do and you have the skill ?


I'm not certain, I understood, what you asked for, but: No. I don't know where you take that impression from, since there's no money involved at all.


On topic again:
I find it pretty funny, that next to all of the hardcore bittervets seem to like this change a lot (as seems to be true for the splitting of the expansion, to give it more time to deploy and develop, too) and the only really fierce resistance can be met here on EVE-O. I can't speak for anyone else, but when both Kugu****** and SHC agree on these actions beeing awesome, CCP's approach and actions simply must lead into the right direction. It's like Superman and Lex Luthor or Batman and the Joker agree on something and sit down to have a nice, unpoisoned cup of coffee.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.12.01 07:45:00 - [1797]
 

Originally by: Grogen
Originally by: Ebisu Kami
Originally by: Grogen
Outstanding Changes, But I have been reading and reading. I dont see any place. How we getting Skill points to learn other things ? How is the new system going to work ?
That's because this change will only happen on the 14th, not today. Just check your skills-tab on 14th, after the patch.
Well Yes I know the Changes are not today, And you did not answer notting. Anyone have a clue as to the New system ? is it who has the most money buys the skills to do what you want to do and you have the skill ?
We're getting skill points the exact same way as alway: right-click → learn (or add to queue). The system isn't changing — they're just ditching the learning skills and replacing them with a straight increase to your attributes, which does the same thing without the tedium.

The SP you recuperate from the learning skills will be added to your "non-assigned SP pool" and you'll be able to dole those out to whatever skills you like by (if I remember correctly from the last time they used the system) right-clicking a skill and choosing something along the lines of "distribute SP".
Originally by: Xerreckaitesa
And you completely miss the point. CCP is shortening the game, making it easier and quicker to level up.
…and yet, one of the most common complaints is that people will learn slower (that much-discussed loss of 72 SP/h). Sure, it shortens the 20+ years for learning everything to max to 19.7 years. Big whoop. The whole point of having the skills to begin with was (depending on whom you ask) to shorten that timespan or to delay the shortening of that timespan until they had filled it up with enough skills that a shortening wouldn't be noticeable.
Quote:
The best part of this game was the fact that you had to think and plan ahead. A few more changes like this and we'll just have another WoW where 3 months into the game you've basically finished it.
You still have to plan ahead — perhaps now more than ever, since you have to rely on balancing the costs vs. the risks of your implants and the usefulness of doing entire years simply training one thing. Moreover, the learning skills wasn't much about thinking ahead — it was about either being downright stupid or earning more in the long run, which isn't much of a choice and doesn't require much planning.

It would require a fair bit more than "a few more changes" to turn this game's length into WoW…

…but only if you keep thinking of SP as XP and of skills as levels. If you're thinking about "reaching the endgame", then guess what: you can get there faster in EVE than in any other game already because you decide the engame — not the game itself.

Solaris233
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.01 09:14:00 - [1798]
 

awesome ccp.

As someone is has 4s in Basic learning skills and only 3s in advanced learning skills I stand to gain a net 3 points from each skill.

Cysius
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.01 11:17:00 - [1799]
 

When I first read this I thought it was going to be dreadful; yet another common MMO tactic which will hurt existing players by undermining time and investment, while rewarding the newer ones with easier gameplay and achievements. But now I've read the blog I think it's a terrific idea! It's great that the existing players who have invested a lot of points into these skills will have them refunded.

No complaints here. At all... ugh

CCP Stillman

Posted - 2010.12.01 11:24:00 - [1800]
 

We're soon gonna remove learning skills from Singularity. Why don't you come and check it out, and gain some extra skill points on Singularity?


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