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Cartagenia
Posted - 2010.11.26 15:54:00 - [1291]
 

Originally by: Adeno4ka
Edited by: Adeno4ka on 25/11/2010 15:14:54
sorry but i think it was stupid idea
you making EVE to casuality
welcome to wow\la2 in space


If I'd gotten more skillpoints for hammering rocks and beating people up I'd be one of the top eve players..

welcome to EVE in space.. nub

Death Stab
Posted - 2010.11.26 15:55:00 - [1292]
 

Edited by: Death Stab on 26/11/2010 15:55:41
Quote:
1) When you are fresh off the boat (so to speak) you are rarely in a position to even know about learning skills, it's only typically through outside help or dumb luck that you see them and actually notice what they do.


You would have to be very dumb to miss learning skills, because that means that you didn't do training and/or you didn't check the skills panel. Such a dumb player would quit anyway.

Quote:
2) The isk cost of the books can consume a lot of a newbies time, removing the skills means they are more liky to explore the world and newbie retention should (hopefully) go up.


What else there is for newbie to do apart from earning ISK?

Quote:

3) If there are more newbies, there are more people now and in the future to interact/kill/scam/dry hump/whatever you do in your corp. This is a good thing, right? You do remember this is a MMO, right?


I would prefer less players then have more dumb players around.
Quote:

6) Making EvE more newbie friendly does not make your ***** smaller. It was that size to start with.


Its just making the game poorer. Less demanding. Easier always means poorer. CCP should rather concentrate on UI (it's not ergonomic). This is the main thing that puts people off.

Quote:
...blind rage, personal insults...


Its always better to reply using some good arguments. Cool

Cartagenia
Posted - 2010.11.26 15:56:00 - [1293]
 

everyone I know has been whining about getting rid of learning. Now its happening and now people start whining again..

come on.. get a life

Dmoney3788
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.11.26 15:56:00 - [1294]
 

Guys lets call it even and reintroduce plex for remap, then any advantage the older players lost from this will be gained with plex for remap Laughing

Dav Varan
Posted - 2010.11.26 15:58:00 - [1295]
 

Stop Crying.
You are not being singled out.
You are not special.
You are not smarter than the next person by training learning skill, everyone trains them at some point.
You are not losing an advantage, You just perceived an advantage because you thought you were in a small minority who trained learning.
Everyone trains learning it is just a neccessary grind that equalls a timesink.
timesink at the start of an mmo are bad as they put off new blood.

I still remember how much of a pain in the ass they were to train.
They were something I had to do , not wanted to do.

Good ridance to them.


Mayhem Mugu
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:00:00 - [1296]
 

So many people are saying to those with maxed learning skills " you are only losing 72sp per hour and the refund covers that for 8 years"

That is not the point.

The point is everyone else will getting more SP per hour ( I am sure that someone can quantify how much more SP per hour ), effectively we are being penalised by 72sp/ph + the gains that other chars get.

So maxed learning chars are being nerfed , everyone else ( the vast majority ) are getting a free buff.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:00:00 - [1297]
 

Originally by: Master Flakattack
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Do you understand the difference between Total SP and Effective SP? Because until you do, you will never understand why her argument, and by extension your argument is relegated to the "Stupid Corner", which is also known as the "Relevant in 8 1/2 Years Corner".

Unless of course you're talking about the training slowly while training learning skills part compared to new players never having to train slowly at all. If you're talking about THAT... Well please do us a favor and just shoot yourself.

Please explain oh god of all math and logic, your definition of Total SP as opposed to Effective SP. I'd love to hear this.


Looking around, I'd say the arguments of the 'Only relevant in 8 years' group of detractors have all been pretty much decisively falsified by now. And nobody is burning their fingers on that any more. :) So, I say that point is moot.

Quote:

I don't see what's so hard to understand. I am going to use some arbitrary values, as the concept is what I am trying to convey here. Let's say you, as an old character, started training at 500sp/hour. At max attributes, you train at 1000sp/hour. To get to that 1000sp/hour means you start at 500sp/hour and eventually end at 1000sp/hour. Now, you have 1 million skillpoints. That is the total you have in your learning tree.

Now imagine the system is changed, so new players start with full attributes and train at 1000sp/hour. Now you and the new players train at the same speed. You also get your 1 mil SP back to redistribute. Fair enough right? Not quite. When you were training your learning skills up at 500sp/hour, you were losing 500sp/hour. When you get up to 800sp/hour, you were still losing 200sp/hour. Skillpoints were lost over time when compared to what a new player will get.



Yes. The effects of the 'meta' learning skills build up gradually; whereas a newbie gets max speed instantly. That accounts for a little extra loss apart from said 5+ mil sp. However, I feel obligated to point out that Shandir has convincingly demonstrated that having 5+ mil sp, not linked to attributes (!), which you can put towards a skill you're not ideally mapped for, is really gonna give you a tremendous boost. More than enough to offset the 72 sp/h loss for a long time to come.

Death Stab
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:02:00 - [1298]
 

Originally by: Cartagenia
everyone I know has been whining about getting rid of learning. Now its happening and now people start whining again..

come on.. get a life


Sorry, who is whining? People like you without any arguments. Lets eat sh*t, billions of flies cannot be wrong. Why do you guys always whine about 'whining'? Don't you know that not everybody has to think like you? Idea

Vildrin
Entwi De Maila
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:08:00 - [1299]
 

I am not opposed to someone getting something easier than I had it. I am also no opposed to a free remap since the intial Plex for remap likely screwed a good number of folks over when they remapped thinking they didn't have to be locked in for a full year Embarassed

Vil

AterraX
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:14:00 - [1300]
 

Whiners won EvE....

/que countdown to attribute implants will go too...because they are to expensive for n00bs...

Capsuleer Newton
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:16:00 - [1301]
 

Originally by: Dmoney3788
Guys lets call it even and reintroduce plex for remap, then any advantage the older players lost from this will be gained with plex for remap Laughing


yeah, then add the PLEX in exchange of 256k Skill Points, or PLEX for 1.0 Concorde Standings Increase, well, let's go full speed and follow what Farmville does, it seems pretty effective... sigh....'ugh'

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:18:00 - [1302]
 

Originally by: I'thari
Yes, but when instead of having 5/5 learnings you suddenly end up with 5/4 it is not a reimbursment - it's a nerf. You get your SP reimbursed from all your learning skills plus everything up to 5/4 learning will be reimbursed by increase in attributes, while 5/5 learning skills won't be backed up by attibute increase, only have SP reimbursed - that's the issue with "72sp/hour", nothing more.

The counter to that argument is that you are being compensated for that (tiny) nerf with an advance payment of millions of skillpoints that you can use now.

I ran some very rough annuity calculations (not my area of expertise), and assuming you'll play for the next 16 years, the effective discount rate is about 9% (ie: if you took the 5.3m SP and invested them in an annuity that paid off 51840 SP a month, that annuity would have to yield about 9% to fund itself).

For 12 years expected play, the rate is about 6%.

Or to put it another way, those %'s are your long-term ROI if you had the choice to keep your learning skills and not take CCP's "buyout" offer.

Given the obvious long-term risks (changes to the game, changes in your life, Iceland being covered in lava, global thermonuclear war), that's not a good enough rate for most people. The buyout offer as it stands is a reasonable deal.

This is not to say CSM won't push CCP to make the deal a little better -- that is part of our job, after all, and I personally am a total SP-wh*re.

Tore Smith
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:24:00 - [1303]
 

Originally by: Dav Varan
Stop Crying.
You are not being singled out.
You are not special.
You are not smarter than the next person by training learning skill, everyone trains them at some point.
You are not losing an advantage, You just perceived an advantage because you thought you were in a small minority who trained learning.
Everyone trains learning it is just a neccessary grind that equalls a timesink.
timesink at the start of an mmo are bad as they put off new blood.

I still remember how much of a pain in the ass they were to train.
They were something I had to do , not wanted to do.

Good ridance to them.




well said!

D Bogart
Mafia Redux
Phobia.
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:27:00 - [1304]
 

They should def make it so the refund SP is per account and not per character.

Meaning if you have two characters that you trained up on one account, your Main has 5m SP in learning and your alt has 2 m in learning, then the account should have 7m to put where ever they want to put it (IE all 7m on Main character or 3.5m on main 3.5 on alt, or whatever combo that pleases you)

This would seem fair because alot of people trained their alt specifically to do one or two tasks and only trained the learning skills needed to complete that task in least amount of time. That character may have zero use for the SP it'll get from getting learning skill SP back


Another thing which I think would be a good idea is to give everyone a remap with this change. Because for some this change to learning skills is going to change their training plans

Sarifa
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:27:00 - [1305]
 

I remember the pre-SWG, all different classes with very indeep skilling. They changed it to please some with a result that after the patch most had kind of same attributes with some difference in gear but finally every1 could be a jedi.
That game is dead by now.
I dont care about the learing skills but what is left is only attributes and implants so EVE characters wont differ so much anymore. A depth will be removed, for some a blessing and for some a curse.
My personal guess is many left the game because it requires loads of training, patience and dedication and may be boring at times. Mark my words (again, i dont care about the learning skills), we will see in the future but my guess is when a space MMO like EVE comes out that retains its originality to set it apart from other MMO, many will leave.
The 1s that left EVE already, i bet most of them didnt leave for the learning skills. My guess is that the game was just not for them.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:31:00 - [1306]
 

Originally by: Sarifa
I dont care about the learing skills but what is left is only attributes and implants so EVE characters wont differ so much anymore. A depth will be removed, for some a blessing and for some a curse.
Not really, no. In spite of the incessant cries of "you could choose not to train them", everyone trained the learning skills. The differences will be 1-2 attribute points for the vast majority of people, and between the different implants (with the same old reasons for why you wouldn't max the attribute values on those) and remaps, the differences will be about the same as they ever were.

The depth added by the learning skills was nil compared to what actually made a difference in the game: every other skill.

Mayhem Mugu
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:31:00 - [1307]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

The counter to that argument is that you are being compensated for that (tiny) nerf with an advance payment of millions of skillpoints that you can use now.




now please explain why the CSM thinks that those of us with max learning skills should get a nerf while everyone else gets buffed. (everyone gets the skill point repayment)

Bellator Militaris
Caldari
Freelancers Coalition
Joined Brotherhood
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:32:00 - [1308]
 

In these Tech Times a game such as Eve must change and stream line (Now if CCP could address the Racism, Bigorty, Hate, and Filth in pilots Bios) Bellator Player Since '06

I'thari
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:32:00 - [1309]
 

Originally by: Ebisu Kami
Lag? From removing learning skills? Ok, I'll bite: How?
More noobs, since 90% of those 10% who are not scared off by UI are bored by having to train learning skills first. Rolling Eyes

WisdomPanda
Goatriders Horde
The Scapegoats
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:43:00 - [1310]
 

Edited by: WisdomPanda on 26/11/2010 16:49:58
Originally by: Death Stab
Edited by: Death Stab on 26/11/2010 15:55:41
Quote:
1) When you are fresh off the boat (so to speak) you are rarely in a position to even know about learning skills, it's only typically through outside help or dumb luck that you see them and actually notice what they do.


You would have to be very dumb to miss learning skills, because that means that you didn't do training and/or you didn't check the skills panel. Such a dumb player would quit anyway.


You see, the problem with that logic is two fold; 1) How do you measure smarts, 2) How do you factor in the fact that everyone is different?

I know a person who plays EvE that has an IQ high enough to be in Mensa (http://www.mensa.org/), but they missed the learning skills. Does this make them dumb?

People are different son, deal with it.

Originally by: Death Stab
Quote:
2) The isk cost of the books can consume a lot of a newbies time, removing the skills means they are more liky to explore the world and newbie retention should (hopefully) go up.


What else there is for newbie to do apart from earning ISK?


Travel the universe, converse with in-game friends they may have (that quite possibly started at the same time), look for a corp aligned with their passion, etc.

Even if you believe that a newbie has nothing better to do than make iskies; wouldn't it be nice if that isk went towards better modules anyways? Or even, shock horror, buying the other skill books that are a little on the costly side.

Originally by: Death Stab
Quote:

3) If there are more newbies, there are more people now and in the future to interact/kill/scam/dry hump/whatever you do in your corp. This is a good thing, right? You do remember this is a MMO, right?


I would prefer less players then have more dumb players around.


Your "$12.95 a month" isn't the only one that makes New Eden keep spinning my friend. Your view is important, your feelings worth while, however you should weight them against the greater good.

I don't ever want EvE to become WoW, make no mistake. However it'd be nice if the new player experience was a a bundle of cute fuzz and joy rather than a Chinese finger trap.

Originally by: Death Stab
Quote:

6) Making EvE more newbie friendly does not make your ***** smaller. It was that size to start with.


Its just making the game poorer. Less demanding. Easier always means poorer. CCP should rather concentrate on UI (it's not ergonomic). This is the main thing that puts people off.


The thing is, it's really not. Newbies will still have to grapple with a lot of the issue that ever other vet grappled with, they'll still have a HUGE amount of training to complete before they can even think of flying a capital without losing it in a huge ball of fire.

That, and if you read the blog, the 100% speed bonus is going away as well, which will help to balance it out. So yes, they will start with higher attributes, but they won't get any special boost besides that, with the exception of the booster from the new pack that's out. Whole other argument.

Remember that as a MMO, EvE evolves to meet the current expectations. Everyone I've ever introduced to EvE has never been happy to learn about the need to train learning skills, it's always seemed to be silly to have 2 layers of attribute boosting (skills and augs) to me at least.

Originally by: Death Stab
Quote:
...blind rage, personal insults...


Its always better to reply using some good arguments. Cool


And yet you still called people dumb for not thinking like you? Wink

Still waiting for my cookies.

Tarrick
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:48:00 - [1311]
 

I Have invested a great deal of time and isk in learning these skills, the fact that this was in the past does not mean that I should now forfeit that and is not offset by the advantages gained, where next are you going to take away what people have trained without compensation?Mad

Tarrick
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:52:00 - [1312]
 

It seems that EvE (CCP) has thier eye on the profit not the game shame that which ruins the real world also threatens to ruin the virtual world of EvESad

Skythunder Alexandria
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:56:00 - [1313]
 

The fact of the matter is, that they have already removed the skillbooks being sold by NPC's. So, there is no turning back now... this is going to have to happen.

I think the only argument left at this point, is how to properly reimburse the (apparently) vast majority of people who have invested in the Learning tree. And, no... refunding the SP straight back to us is not a fair reimbursement. After all, every single person who trained these skills, did so with low attributes (it's the chicken-or-the-egg argument). So, giving us back what we already spent, while increasing baseline attributes accross the board, is NOT a fair reimbursement. We need to be reimbursed the time we spent training, at a rate commensurate with the new baseline attributes!

And to everyone who thinks you are getting "free SP"... you are the same people who think a tax refund is "free money". It's not free money. It's money that you gave to the government, and then they gave a (small) portion of it back, and told you it was A GIFT.

The sad part is, you believed them! LOL Razz

Lliabron
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:56:00 - [1314]
 

Guys,
I don't take this part:
>WHY AREN'T YOU REIMBURSING SKILLBOOKS I BOUGHT AND INJECTED?
>A couple of reasons. Firstly, in the huge overwhelming majority of cases you've already got more than your money's worth out of them (particularly compared to >implants). In the tiny number of cases where people have bought them just recently and not really trained them much, we recognize that this isn't ideal, but >still, you dropped ~20m to get +10 in all your attributes, and that's going to happen considerably sooner than you planned. Come January you'll be in a better >place with this change than without it.
>Secondly, it would mean dumping ~16 trillion ISK into the economy, and CCP EyjoG (our economist and qualified numbers-guy) nearly had a heart attack when we >asked if this might be a problem. (He also said "don't do that, please" once he'd recovered from the shock.)
I have invested quite a lot in skillpoints with new character, about half year old and with over 3 mil (out of over 9) skillpoints in learning(so not all to lvl 5 yet). Obviously they could not have been utilized significantly (the tier 2 of them for sure) so far.
-Point that +10 of all attributes is going to happen is irrelevant because it's going to happen regardless of whether or not were the skills trained
-It completely makes nonsense of any planning that at some point my char might get better stats wise to those that did not took this, and it does not compensate that anyhow (10mil ISK per every advanced skill was whole lot when learning these skills this initially)
-Point about dumping that kind of money, well that's just not relevant because there are other things you can dump in - different skillbooks, items, whatever. Don't tell me it's that complicated to make table where having skill A will grant one(random) of items from group Y. You can even inject pack of minerals about matching the overall price. I suppose there is more to it as always to do it actually but ISK dump problem is not excuse not to do it.
Not against whole thing, but there should be the compensation. I can now make ISKies much faster than I could months ago, but I could have been at much better point at this time and make them faster much sooner would I skip the learnings. Least you can do to compensate for making one of training strategies irrelevant and waste is to reimburse the expenseses spent on it - there will be comparative loss to those that did not took these even after doing these.

Tarrick
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:58:00 - [1315]
 

One of the attractions and I believe desire to continue the game is the very real sacrifice that has to be made to progress no instant re-spawn as it were the less this is so the more the game is disolved into the general low standard that is ghe seeming path that computer gaming is followingugh

Cribb
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.11.26 16:58:00 - [1316]
 

Edited by: Cribb on 26/11/2010 17:02:02
So what about the isk lost?
I paid 4.5 mil on those advanced skills.
Are we getting a refund on that to?

It's nice to see the CSM indeed does not see what players need.

Quote:
The counter to that argument is that you are being compensated for that (tiny) nerf with an advance payment of millions of skillpoints that you can use now.

No we are not we lose those points, we only get to reuse them for new skills we gain nothing.

Victor BlueStone
Posted - 2010.11.26 17:03:00 - [1317]
 

Just wanted to say I support what CCP is doing by getting rid of the learning skills.
I have both a char getting buffed and another getting nerfed. I can live with losing
those 72 sp's per hr. CCP chose to keep the change simple and apply it evenly to everyone.
I did my math and saw I'm losing those nickels and dimes that others are so worried about.
(1.4 attribute points)Rolling Eyes We all get affected by the change and now have a cap on
fast we can train. I see prices to +5 implants rising because now the shift to how fast a
pilot trains falls on what implants are bought instead of what skills are trained. I see myself making some very good iskies in the future... thank you CCP! Laughing

Dmoney3788
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.11.26 17:08:00 - [1318]
 

Welcome to the nerfwheel max SP'ers. Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. Laughing

Clkte Flrke
Amarr
Tools Of The Trade
Posted - 2010.11.26 17:10:00 - [1319]
 

so again, it seems to me, that the long term player (ie: me with almost 7yrs) gets hosed again....oh well. its prolly time to quit eve anyway. after 7yrs, i surely can get more bang for my buck with another game that doesnt total morph itself to screw the veteran player. again, oh well, maybe i didnt read the blog right. and maybe i will calm down later....then again maybe not

Dmoney3788
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.11.26 17:11:00 - [1320]
 

Originally by: Clkte Flrke
so again, it seems to me, that the long term player (ie: me with almost 7yrs) gets hosed again....oh well. its prolly time to quit eve anyway. after 7yrs, i surely can get more bang for my buck with another game that doesnt total morph itself to screw the veteran player. again, oh well, maybe i didnt read the blog right. and maybe i will calm down later....then again maybe not

You should give me your stuff, and then watch out for that door, it seems to home in on people's asses as they leave Twisted Evil


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