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Wellan McHuntley
Posted - 2010.11.26 06:20:00 - [1081]
 

Everyone here seems to have extended gaming time experience. I have not. From a newbie point of view I think it could benefit in several ways. First, having point stored in learning gave us time to know about the game and thus, we will be in much better position to choose what to train for according of what we want to do in EVE.

Experienced player had taken advantage of those skills point in addition to being able to redistribute them. So I don't see the point of doing math on this, a MMO is supposed to be fair. Giving bonus to older player for the sake of retention of newer is in my opinion a good move from CCP. And it doesn't make anyone in better position. Furthermore, starting bonus were only usefull for those alt, those multi-account player... those who "need" more than one char to do something in EVE.

Again, only a newbie opinionWink

Dmoney3788
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.11.26 06:22:00 - [1082]
 

Originally by: northroop Grumman
All we need now is the ability to be in a bar or barber getting a haircut, then we will have another awesome game! Think WoW will mind eVe copying them?

Stuff like this makes me ROFL. It goes something like this:

WoW = bad
New EVE features = Existing WoW features,

Therefore

EVE = WoW = Bad

I love this. Please, keep this up people. This is what keeps me entertained.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.11.26 06:22:00 - [1083]
 

Woohooo.. where is the party to celebrate this at? YARRRR!!

Very very good decision. Keep 'em coming CCP! Very Happy

Mayhem Mugu
Posted - 2010.11.26 06:27:00 - [1084]
 

Lets face it probably no one read after page 2 , but I really feel the need to say this.

the vast majority of eve players will benefit from this , all those with less then perfect attributes , will suddenly be able to learn everything faster , they can use the sp they had in learning for other skills.

those of us,like me, with perfect learning skills, gain sweet nothing.

The time we put in getting all learning skills to 5 to gain an advantage is made null and void , now everyone trains at the same speed , I gain sweet fk all , the vast majority of eve players gain a lot.

To make this fair the training skill points should be refunded by a ratio, for example 2x the amount, so people with the typical circa 2mill in learning SP get 4 mill they can remap + the increase in attributes. Those with max learning skills get zero increase to attributes but at least get some more remappable skill points.

I do realise that my other accounts will get a boost by the changes, but it really does upset (*&^%$£" me off ) that perfect learning skills is being, comparatively urinated upon.

Megy Feel
V.L.A.S.T.
V.L.A.S.T
Posted - 2010.11.26 06:36:00 - [1085]
 

Oh dear lord so many ppl to quote and i can't choose wich ones are more terrible ... so instead:

can i have your stuff dear whiner/bitter vet?


About time CCP :)



Evelle Deus
Posted - 2010.11.26 06:39:00 - [1086]
 

Seriously!

If you wasted that much time on training a skill that gave one attribute point. You probably are getting what you deserve.

On better ideas Rolling Eyes

Would having a character start with learning skills re-imbursed at 2x be worth more sp than the other vs.

Probably not. Hopefully a remap is available...

Sahmul
The Grimreapers.
Posted - 2010.11.26 06:42:00 - [1087]
 

Originally by: Mayhem Mugu
Lets face it probably no one read after page 2 , but I really feel the need to say this.

the vast majority of eve players will benefit from this , all those with less then perfect attributes , will suddenly be able to learn everything faster , they can use the sp they had in learning for other skills.

those of us,like me, with perfect learning skills, gain sweet nothing.

The time we put in getting all learning skills to 5 to gain an advantage is made null and void , now everyone trains at the same speed , I gain sweet fk all , the vast majority of eve players gain a lot.

To make this fair the training skill points should be refunded by a ratio, for example 2x the amount, so people with the typical circa 2mill in learning SP get 4 mill they can remap + the increase in attributes. Those with max learning skills get zero increase to attributes but at least get some more remappable skill points.

I do realise that my other accounts will get a boost by the changes, but it really does upset (*&^%$£" me off ) that perfect learning skills is being, comparatively urinated upon.


So, as I understand it, the many hundreds of hours you have already spent training at a higher rate than will be possible after this change were of no value? Do you therefore advocate that CCP calculates how many hours training each character has done and subtract anything in excess of the new per hour rate?

Yeah, didn't think so :D

northroop Grumman
Posted - 2010.11.26 06:47:00 - [1088]
 

Mayhem, face it.... You can't win. Socialism has won. Take from the rich and give more to the poor. Everyone has to be equal in order for the world to turn. :-)) LMAO

Sahmul
The Grimreapers.
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:00:00 - [1089]
 

Originally by: northroop Grumman
Mayhem, face it.... You can't win. Socialism has won. Take from the rich and give more to the poor. Everyone has to be equal in order for the world to turn. :-)) LMAO


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, Socialism has won, roflmao, idiot. Educate yourself.

Nothing has been taken from the vets, nothing has been given to the noobs, if anything it is the other way around.

Tryst Sabaro
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:03:00 - [1090]
 

I can't really say I have much of an opinion on this. Despite gaining a significant stat boost from this all i'm glad of is that ccp is giving us the skill points we invested into learning back. Otherwise me, and about 50000 other people would probably be out for blood.

Jaton
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:05:00 - [1091]
 

I'm afraid I have to join the whinners. This change, imho, is not for the better. Eve, like most other mmos, is a game of ambition. You start with nothing, and build up. And yes, some of those things you do or aquire during that buildup is only useful at that time. But thats part of this type of game. Learning skills required chosing a short term loss for a long term gain. Most every mmo has choices like that, here and there. I've no doubt that there are players that don't like the time spent on learning skills. Well, I did not like spending almost a month on battleship 5 to fly a marauder either. Does that mean we should delete level bs5? Why not delete all level 5s? That would make the game rewards come faster too.

It seems to me that nerfing an entire class of skills for the sake of impatient 12 year olds (and for the sake of adults with the mentality of impatient 12 year olds ) is simply a dummying down of the game.

I hope ccp realizes that if you modify a game too much in order to cater to children, then soon the game will only be fit for children.

qaz zaq
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:05:00 - [1092]
 

Does saying Idiot make you feel bigger? Just curious...

kipJunkie
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:08:00 - [1093]
 

This is sad. I'm playing this game for years and i really love it. And after watching many downgrades to the look of the game, now comes this fundamental change.
CCP gives everything to catch some new players <<WoW i want pew pew - and i want it now>> and forgets the magic of the structure of the game that cept so many players for years, with up to 2 accounts each.
<Need for speed> is a politic that ruins the future of the game. Even lag comes from it (jump bridges-warp to 0 etc).
Need for quality is the only politic that will warranty the survival of the game.
But i think while ccp team looks happy with the removal of learning skills, knows this is a major downgrade to the idea of the game.
I think eve doesn't go well as a game and ccp does desperate attemps to change this, but in the wrong way.
The big advertisement campain seems to be failed, and now new clients must be found fast.... so lets remove the learning skills.

Relatyve Mynd
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:10:00 - [1094]
 

somewhere between 3-5 million sp coming back at me after I have already benefited greatly from it!?

If you don't realize how completely amazing this is, you should go to a hospital, because you're brain dead.

Relatyve Mynd
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:13:00 - [1095]
 

This is the equivalent of putting money into the bank, making mad interest on it for years, and then out of the blue the damn bank says "We're going to keep paying you the same interest on your money as if it were still in our bank, and we're going to give you back your investment.

To you oldbie's out there: this is free sp. Simple as that. And the more you put into learning, the more you've gained from this.

Just stop to think before you go whining.

Sahmul
The Grimreapers.
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:15:00 - [1096]
 

Originally by: qaz zaq
Does saying Idiot make you feel bigger? Just curious...


Not at all, being better educated than to shout SOCIALISM!!!1!1 when something I don't like happens makes me feel big enough, thanks. The "idiot" was a reflection of my disgust, not my ego

(American propaganda must be losing effectiveness, or maybe its just going to take longer than 10 years to turn the "Hate Socialism" boat around to "Hate MosleImeanTerrorists" lmao)

NH PC
Gallente
University of Caille
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:16:00 - [1097]
 

Originally by: Tohmu Blackwing
Originally by: Gaspar Destrum
i for one detest this change for 2 reasons

1) it will not get me back the 5 months of isk earning timei lost learning my learning to 5/5
2) it will be costing me 735840 SPs/year till i quit eve.

since i built my character properly from the get go im getting penalized GJ ccp really :\

----
math

my current remap is a 33 pers 26.4 will 22 elsewhere
after the change i will only have 32 pers 26 will
1.4 *60*24*365 = 735840
----

I believe your math is wrong...

Points per minute = (primary attribute + secondary attribute/2)

Therefore 1.2 / minute, not 1.4.

1.2 * 60 * 24 * 365 = only 630,720, not 735,840.

Normally I wouldn't pull out the abacus on you, but I think your whinging for nothing. And if your going to bash this decision using math, then I think the math should count, no?

As other posters have noted, the SP reimbursement will MORE than make up for the little bit you lose on a yearly basis. If you put anywhere near what most ppl invest in learning skills (9 points total), then you will earn enough free reimbursement points to IMMEDIATELY spend on skills of your choosing. This will take you YEARS to recoup with your paltry loss of 1.2 attribute points in your perfectly matched skills.

By the way, do ALL of your skills benefit from this magical bonus, or have you bothered to calculate the LOSS of time for every skill you train that does not precisely match your tailored re-mapped skill training plan?

Again, if you use numbers to justify your complaint, then the numbers should actually be correct, no?



5,376,000(L skills total) / 630,720 (sp per year that that ppl with all L skill on lvl5 will losse per year) = 8,5235... (~8 and half year)

And now prove me that white is white, and black is black. More enterprising players will start losing sp/y after eight and a half years (~) - a fact.

Zin Bloodjin
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:30:00 - [1098]
 

Originally by: NH PC
Originally by: Tohmu Blackwing
Originally by: Gaspar Destrum
i for one detest this change for 2 reasons

1) it will not get me back the 5 months of isk earning timei lost learning my learning to 5/5
2) it will be costing me 735840 SPs/year till i quit eve.

since i built my character properly from the get go im getting penalized GJ ccp really :\

----
math

my current remap is a 33 pers 26.4 will 22 elsewhere
after the change i will only have 32 pers 26 will
1.4 *60*24*365 = 735840
----

I believe your math is wrong...

Points per minute = (primary attribute + secondary attribute/2)

Therefore 1.2 / minute, not 1.4.

1.2 * 60 * 24 * 365 = only 630,720, not 735,840.

Normally I wouldn't pull out the abacus on you, but I think your whinging for nothing. And if your going to bash this decision using math, then I think the math should count, no?

As other posters have noted, the SP reimbursement will MORE than make up for the little bit you lose on a yearly basis. If you put anywhere near what most ppl invest in learning skills (9 points total), then you will earn enough free reimbursement points to IMMEDIATELY spend on skills of your choosing. This will take you YEARS to recoup with your paltry loss of 1.2 attribute points in your perfectly matched skills.

By the way, do ALL of your skills benefit from this magical bonus, or have you bothered to calculate the LOSS of time for every skill you train that does not precisely match your tailored re-mapped skill training plan?

Again, if you use numbers to justify your complaint, then the numbers should actually be correct, no?



5,376,000(L skills total) / 630,720 (sp per year that that ppl with all L skill on lvl5 will losse per year) = 8,5235... (~8 and half year)

And now prove me that white is white, and black is black. More enterprising players will start losing sp/y after eight and a half years (~) - a fact.


And I'm so sure that 8 years from now those "enterprising" players will be crying themselves to sleep on their piles of different racial supercarriers and dreads over it.Rolling Eyes

Torothanax
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:31:00 - [1099]
 

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
I'm sure some people will find this reason to ***** but to be honest, this is simply a decision that makes the game better for everyone.
Except those of us who took the time to max all our training skills, and are just now seeing a payoff. I think you guys need to come up with an extra bonus to benifit those of us who took the long term view. Give us our due, not just a nerf.

Vantlor
Gallente
Scrap Iron Flotilla
Electus Matari
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:31:00 - [1100]
 

<3

Sed Man
Gallente
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:39:00 - [1101]
 

I'm not entirely happy with the change.

The only possible way to catch up with people who have been playing for years is/was via learning skills. Sure, a lot of long term players would have maxed learning skills, but a lot havent/didn't.

So, once there was a possibilty of catching up with older players, at the rate of a few weeks a year, although small was there... and anyone who planned for 3 or more years, investing their time and RL cash are being stung.

This change puts everyone on a level playing field as far as base attributes go, and gives people with ISK a bigger advantage now... before, people without ISK could spend their time skilling learning skills instead of purchasing expensive +5 implants.

This change has entrenched the SP advantage older players can maintain over any new players.

My personal situation is that I've skilled 3.12mill SP in learning... this was time I spent in advance to ensure that I get optimised skilling in the future, to have a fair and ligitimate advantage over players who 'choose' not to invest their time in advance. I've got a 3 year plan, and I've only just started to break even since making the investment, so basically I'm in the worst boat, I've had next to no opertunity to take advantage of my investment and now the systems changing.....

If I investted in a 3 year term deposit and the bank, after 1 year said, sorry, heres your cash back, I'd be annoyed....

Anyhow, this is a game, but I dont like the fact that they've removed the single opertunity to have a fair and reasonable advantage over another player by investing wisely and planning decisions.

Hopefully this change will make EVE a better game - more players will equal a better game, but I still feel a little ripped off.





Odnam Moc
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:40:00 - [1102]
 

Edited by: Odnam Moc on 26/11/2010 07:41:12
Originally by: Torothanax
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
I'm sure some people will find this reason to ***** but to be honest, this is simply a decision that makes the game better for everyone.
Except those of us who took the time to max all our training skills, and are just now seeing a payoff. I think you guys need to come up with an extra bonus to benifit those of us who took the long term view. Give us our due, not just a nerf.


I'm no math whiz, but a years-old char that has had all learning to 5 and +4 or +5 implants for the aforementioned years will retain their SP advantage for years to come, by way of the 5.4 mil SP refund they WILL get.

Or do you get 5.4 mil sp xmas presents from CCP every year?

Admit it; you feel more hardcore for having eschewed real skills early in your char's life for the "investment" of learning skills (if you want to call a year+ minimum recoup time an "investment" worth making...). Your sole complaint, then, is CCP is not taking your feelings into account.

Sahmul
The Grimreapers.
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:41:00 - [1103]
 

Originally by: Torothanax
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
I'm sure some people will find this reason to ***** but to be honest, this is simply a decision that makes the game better for everyone.
Except those of us who took the time to max all our training skills, and are just now seeing a payoff. I think you guys need to come up with an extra bonus to benifit those of us who took the long term view. Give us our due, not just a nerf.


You have received no nerf. In fact, the "bittervets" with maxed learning skills have gained the most out of the change.

Not only do you have years worth of skill training over the "noobs", those years were at a higher per hour rate than those same noobs will ever be able to achieve.

SP/hour is meaningless in the context of total skillpoints, are my 5.5million SP less valuable earned at 2000/hour than 2700/hour? Of course not, they just took a bit longer to get, what I can do with them is identical assuming I spent them in the same way.

When my Character is 5 years old, he will have less TOTAL SKILLPOINTS than a character with maxed learning that is 5 years old today. That difference may be only a few percent, and will narrow over time, but thanks to the way averages work that difference can never entirely disappear.

Sed Man
Gallente
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:45:00 - [1104]
 

seems like lots of people cant do the math....

Takseen
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:47:00 - [1105]
 

Edited by: Takseen on 26/11/2010 08:29:06
Originally by: Lahnius
...as a new player, not even a month old, I started out grabbing at random skills due to my ignorance of the game mechanics... however, once I realized the depth of EVE and then discovering the learning skills, I started training those learning skills. Finally obtaining level 4 and getting ready to move on to the level 5 training and then towards the advanced learning skills, I was VERY excited about what was ready to come for me ... and now thats going to be taken away. Crying or Very sad

In all sense of honesty, although understanding why this is happening, I feel a little robbed... almost like getting mobbed by pirates while exploring the vast EVE universe. ugh

...oh well, I guess... as I previously read in this thread, I have to agree ... welcome to WoEVE (eve wow combo thing for the little impatient players) Mad

...is this the possible future of the best game I have ever played? What I saw as a thinking player's game is already becoming the same-same for the impatient. Neutral

...of course the developers do know best... I guess I'm just ranting... nevermind ...


So you couldn't decide what to learn at first because you had too many choices. Then you found out about learning skills, which are such an obvious choice that its not really a choice at all, and you didn't need to think anymore. And now that they're being removed you'll actually have to make decisions again? How sad.

Torothanax
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:47:00 - [1106]
 

Edited by: Torothanax on 26/11/2010 07:49:15
I've 85 mil sp. 5.4 mil is a cup in the bucket. I'm gettin hit with the nerf bat on all my future training, after taking a significantly longer time to train that 5.4 mil sp then it will take players now. It's not cool when you change the rules mid game. That's why I'm annoyed.

And yes it's a nerf. I will train slower afterward then I do now. Do the math on the soon to be removed 10% bonus.

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:49:00 - [1107]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 26/11/2010 07:50:27
Originally by: Torothanax
Except those of us who took the time to max all our training skills, and are just now seeing a payoff. I think you guys need to come up with an extra bonus to benifit those of us who took the long term view. Give us our due, not just a nerf.


Originally by: Torothanax
I've 85 mil sp. 5.4 mil is a cup in the bucket. I'm gettin hit with the nerf bat on all my future training, after taking a significantly longer time to train that 5.4 mil sp then it will take players now. It's not cool when you change the rules mid game. That's why I'm annoyed.

And yes it's a nerf. I will train slower afterward then I do now. Do the math on the soon to be removed 10% bonus.


Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Jaton
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:50:00 - [1108]
 

Reply to Relatyve Mynd: since you want to get insulting...

The only thing thats "simple" here is your way of thinking. And if you want to see what braindead is, look in the mirror.

None of the returned sp is "free". It did not get delivered to us oldies on a silver platter. It was earned by spending weeks/months on the learning skills. At best, its an even reimbursement. We get to choose other skills with which to spend that time on.

And your banking example is fail. It does not equate to the skillpoint system. Your banking example depends on an interest rate as applied to a lump sum of money. The skillpoint system has no unused lump sum, neither is there an interest rate. Its a simple accumulation of points with a variable rate of increase.

Your inaccuracies aside, I do understand why you like the change. I did mention impatient 12 year olds, right?

Nareg Maxence
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:51:00 - [1109]
 

You I think perhaps the attribute bonus shouldn't be so high, but that's just me. Overall this needs to happen, so well done for growing some balls CCP.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.11.26 07:52:00 - [1110]
 

I know you're being sarcastic, but it still bears repeating…
Originally by: Kanatta Jing
The 8 years argument is ridiculous.

The total SP won't grow.
Total SP is also entirely useless. What this change does is move useless SP into SP that matter — for all intents and purposes, it's more SP than you had before.
Originally by: reads41
This argument is bogus. You do NOT get a bonus of anything you simply get to reallocate sp's you have already earned. A SP is a SP, it doesn't matter what you label it. Your definition of effective skill points is just skill points that aren't in a learning skill. By shifting those learning skill points to another skill set doesn't gain you any skills, it just puts them into an area such as ship skills etc.
…in other words, it puts the SP into something that you can actually use in-game. It gives you abilities you didn't have before because the SP was tied up into a silly meta-game mechanic with no in-game effects. So yeah, you don't "get a bonus of anything" except to this huge thing you get more of: the ability to use more stuff and/or get higher bonuses for the stuff you already have. Except for that bonus, you don't get aaaaaany bonus at all.

Geez. People still believe that total SP count for anything?! Laughing


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