open All Channels
seplocked EVE Information Portal
blankseplocked New Dev Blog - Learning skills are going away
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 29 30 31 32 [33] 34 35 36 37 ... : last (67)

Author Topic

ph47
Posted - 2010.11.26 00:38:00 - [961]
 

Edited by: ph47 on 26/11/2010 00:38:52
Originally by: Salpad
Originally by: Wollari
holy **** ... :) sounds promissing. Less teaching noobs why they should train learnings skills for weeks rather then training something useful to have fun with.


Exactly. As others have said, this will work wonders for new player retention.



no no this is about CCP only caring about the bottom dollar and all that

edit - fixed fail quote

Edmar
Ship Depot
Posted - 2010.11.26 00:41:00 - [962]
 

I don't like where this is going. To me feels like a real significant shift from the original vision of eve. This is the first change I absolutely loathe, a penalty of sorts, and unfortunately I think it's probably going to keep going downhill from here.

I guess there goal is to make everyone the same. Next you will just pick class and level up with exp bonus potions and flying mounts and such. Oh well...

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2010.11.26 00:46:00 - [963]
 

Originally by: Corbeau Lenoir
CCP, why are you doing this? Confused Firstly you removed attribute diversity for bloodlines, now learning skills. Do you realize, that they added depth to the game? Now everybody will be the same? What' the point? This game is getting too casual...Evil or Very Mad


Attributes shouldn't be in the game at all. They're a low-transparency game mechanic in EVE, and cause all sorts of long-term decision anguish and frustration.

Attributes and attribute implants should be removed completely from the game, with either all characters training skillz at the exact same speed, or else characters gaining a skill training speed bonus to some skillz based, on race, e.g. Caldari would train missile launcher skillz (6), and railgun skillz (3, AFAIK), and Caldari ship skillz (3), slightly faster. Maybe 15% faster.

Or it could be based on bloodline and those other chargen choices made long ago.

The benefit is that unlike attributes-derived skill training speeds, this implementation would be much more transparent.

ph47
Posted - 2010.11.26 00:46:00 - [964]
 

Originally by: Edmar
I don't like where this is going. To me feels like a real significant shift from the original vision of eve. This is the first change I absolutely loathe, a penalty of sorts, and unfortunately I think it's probably going to keep going downhill from here.

I guess there goal is to make everyone the same. Next you will just pick class and level up with exp bonus potions and flying mounts and such. Oh well...


yeah! flying mounts and classes and potions, thats where this game is heading! CCP suck and i'm quitting and you all can have my stuff and stuff

ph47
Posted - 2010.11.26 00:50:00 - [965]
 

if i were a dev, and i were the one putting in the no doubt long LONG hours to develop new content and keep immproving this awesome game and then come to this forum and read some of the sh*t that gets posted on here, i'd rage quit my job

Capsuleer Newton
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.26 00:50:00 - [966]
 

Originally by: ph47
Originally by: Edmar
I don't like where this is going. To me feels like a real significant shift from the original vision of eve. This is the first change I absolutely loathe, a penalty of sorts, and unfortunately I think it's probably going to keep going downhill from here.

I guess there goal is to make everyone the same. Next you will just pick class and level up with exp bonus potions and flying mounts and such. Oh well...


yeah! flying mounts and classes and potions, thats where this game is heading! CCP suck and i'm quitting and you all can have my stuff and stuff


oh, and i thought i've heard you guys are having fun with those snowball launchers, no? :))

4N631
Posted - 2010.11.26 00:53:00 - [967]
 

Evil or Very Mad

Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury
Posted - 2010.11.26 00:54:00 - [968]
 

Nobody will be bothered if sommeone is not happy and leave, by the way if those whinners are also (not all) the same who pay theyre time game with plex, then every one wins.

Thxbye

ph47
Posted - 2010.11.26 00:54:00 - [969]
 

Seriously, the amount of work maintaining servers. Tweaking code to get more CPU or whatever. Adjusting game mechanics to make the game the best possible experienc for ANYONE WHO PLAYS IT. Hours of work and some nerd punk goes on a wobbler trashing the sh*t you're doing coz he loses 10SP/hour or whatever.

I'd Rage quit. I'd smash that [windows]+L and lock my workstation so hard! then walk out

ph47
Posted - 2010.11.26 00:56:00 - [970]
 

Lets troll the trollers. Maybe that will work?

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2010.11.26 00:58:00 - [971]
 

Originally by: Tarartia
I have mixed feelings about this. I agree that dismissing the learning skills will be good for newbs, but it does penalize long-term players more than a simple reimbursement of the learning skillpoints compensates for. The trend towards dumbing down the game to the lowest-common denominator is disappointing, as is the argument that 'we aren't going to try for a best-practice solution because it would be too hard'.

As an aside (rant, stop reading now tl;dr ppl) I just trained an alt from scratch and got all the learning skills to level 4 (throw in Cybernetic early on and get a set of +3 implants) and it only took 10 days, so I find the argument that the poor newbs are turned off by the imposing learning skills a non-starter. You play EVE for years not weeks, so HTFU noobs! If your attitude is that you only want to play for a few months and want instant gratification, then CCP should weight the opinion of players who have paid for (multiple) subs over several years higher than the crowd who breeze in, complain, then quit to go play WOW anyway because it is easier. Next CCP will have to give everybody all the level 5 Frigate/Cruiser/Battleship skills because it disadvantages noobs too much. So while we are at it, I want free cap ship skills!


QFT

I understanding this move from a business standpoint, and if this was a one time removal of a barrier to entry, ill get over it, but if this is the first step in dumbing down the game to make it, as a whole, more noob friendly then New Eden is going to get about 9 people smaller.

Deliceous
Lone Star Exploration
Lone Star Partners
Posted - 2010.11.26 01:00:00 - [972]
 

Still a fantastic Idea -

Will make the first few steps into the game so much easier on my newb friends.

I remember a quote spray painted on the wall. Yes... Wise words of Graffiti

Let the world change you and you will be able to change the world.

Keep up the work... This is one of the few issues I have been concerned with. I don't find to many things wrong with the game.

Thanks CPP - Please keep moving forward.

Covert Kitty
Amarr
SRS Industries
SRS.
Posted - 2010.11.26 01:03:00 - [973]
 

Edited by: Covert Kitty on 26/11/2010 01:22:08
Quote:
I did like the concept of "learning skills", even at the time I was doing them: it provided sort of a sieve to filter out the "lvl 80 in two days otherwise the game sucks" kinda players real quick.
EVE is a game of patience. Doing the learnings teaches you that.


No extra sieve needed, I guarantee that they will learn that just using the skill system normally. Fortunately you actually get something out of most every other skill in the game.

Quote:
but if this is the first step in dumbing down the game to make it, as a whole, more noob friendly then New Eden is going to get about 9 people smaller.

I would agree if this had any effect in "dumbing down" the game. As a programmer I was attracted to eve initially because of the complexity and challenge, the API and market exports were a big win for me too. Removing the learning skills does not eliminate any complexity from the game whatsoever, certainly nothing that effects any older players.

I *fully* support this decision, congratulations CCP on a bold and tremendously beneficial move.

NereSky
Gallente
RETRIBUTIONS.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2010.11.26 01:06:00 - [974]
 

Edited by: NereSky on 26/11/2010 01:14:05
Edited by: NereSky on 26/11/2010 01:09:02
I think overall its a good idea for people like me who long ago maxed their skills we will get the points returned to re-allocate,

As i can still remember the frustration of having to train those skills i can understand why new players will find this attractive which if it keeps newer players subscribing for longet it should theoretically help the game

however

this helps the newer players no end, when do older players get a reward for continued custom? I know playing the game is reward in itself (yes that can seem rather thin lol) but ignoring new graphics and gameplay (when it works or when new content actually gets finished) there should be something to recognise the commitment some of us have made be it 3, 4 5 yrs plus to the game.

If i remember right the arguement about the learning skills has been talked about since i first started in 2004 and 'only now' are you actually doing something about it.
1 of the arguements a GM advised way back then, was completing the learning skills was showing commitment, well i and many others have shown that commitment and now the skills get removed and the points allocated elsewhere, although i can live with that but there should be something more imo

Like maybe a whole bunch of loyalty points from your respecive agents or something Question

NGTM1R
Posted - 2010.11.26 01:09:00 - [975]
 

I'd like to reach waaay back about 30 pages to somebody and comment on it, because the sheer absurdity of what they said amuses me.

"Learning skills kept me in the game after the whoa spaceships wore off!"

If training skills that were totally useless except for more training kept you in the game...I'm pretty sure there's something physiologically wrong with you. Not even psychologically, I mean physically wrong, like your brain is crosswired so boredom produces endomorphins.

That's the point. Learn skills are effectively a cul-de-sac into which skillpoints are poured for a purely metagame effect, and it has no bearing on how you do anything that occurs in combat, mining, exploration, building or destroying corps, industry, or anything else. They exist in a seperate little vacuum from the rest of the skill tree, which all can be utilized towards an immediately useful purpose. The learning skills are an aberration, and not one that should be encouraged.

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2010.11.26 01:11:00 - [976]
 

Originally by: Vito Parabellum
Not that fair at all, we olduns that sacrificed months to get maximized learning will lose on this deal because we did not have +12 when we started (means xp lost, compared to new newbies). So this evens the field and our sacrifice (fun,time,xp,money) is nullified. Also the cost of the learningbooks is being dismissed because "we had some use from them?". If we had had +12 from the start we wouldnt have needed them at all. But surprised I'm not, must get moaar playerbase (money)!


Your reasoning is similar to that of AD&D tabletop RPG players who enjoyed playing characters of the Magic User class. They'd start out extremely weak, at first level, being able to cast only a single weak spell per day (or two if they chose to be Specialist Magic Users), and the rest of the time, they were useless, limited to throwing knives and darts at the enemy. Only players who endured that kind of extended masochism got the reward, since high-level Magic Users were the most powerful character class in the game.

AD&D rewarded the wrong kind of player, through incompetent game design, and EVE has also done this up until now, although to a much lesser extent (I wouldn't have stuck with EVE for over 3.5 years if the design had been intolerably bad, but I have utterly failed, twice, to successfully introduce real life friends and relatives to the game, and with the primary blame for that failing falling on the Learning skillz).

Alphonse Diago
Posted - 2010.11.26 01:15:00 - [977]
 

Well, looks like my friends going to return to the game. It's hard to say if i either helped or hindered his entrance into the universe of eve by suggesting he get the learning skills all lvled up after some basic skills. You try and tell people whats best in the long run but come on... This is definitely a change for the better, thanks ccp.

Elladan Rex
Posted - 2010.11.26 01:18:00 - [978]
 

A bad decision at my advise in med-long prospective.

Senghir
Amarr
Sword Of The Empire
Posted - 2010.11.26 01:26:00 - [979]
 

I fully support this change. It's fantastic and long overdue.

Kazini Jax
Gallente
Starlight Operations
Starlight Network
Posted - 2010.11.26 01:27:00 - [980]
 

While I am ok with the change, as long as you don't go overboard, I have to agree with those that say time lost should be reimbursed also. The time spent actually learning the skills at a slower SP/h pace than a newbie has to account for something. A 5-10% bonus reimburesemnt to Learning SPs earned. perhaps.
Also, calling that a 1/2 of a Xmas present? Really? That's like taking $50 from me, taking $3 and wrapping up the other $47 in a nice bow, giving it back, and saying "Merry Christmas!" (when taking into consideration the time spent debate).

Sk Fawn
Posted - 2010.11.26 01:33:00 - [981]
 

@ Whiners - Hrmm 400 ish skills = 3 decades of training - 11 skills = 2.7 decades of training. Yes this really takes the players focus off the long term *rolleyes*.

Good Move CCP

PS. Any chance you could grandfather the black market trading skill book into my point pool? :P

Ginger T
Posted - 2010.11.26 01:34:00 - [982]
 

Edited by: Ginger T on 26/11/2010 01:34:47
This is a good thing so well done ccp. Very Happy

However they better get this patch right first time when this goes in on or around 14th december as if they don't and it requires another 1-5 fix's like the last couple of patchs as this would cause caos for lots of new eden pilots.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2010.11.26 01:37:00 - [983]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 26/11/2010 01:42:57
Edited by: MotherMoon on 26/11/2010 01:40:02
Originally by: ph47
Edited by: ph47 on 26/11/2010 00:38:52
Originally by: Salpad
Originally by: Wollari
holy **** ... :) sounds promissing. Less teaching noobs why they should train learnings skills for weeks rather then training something useful to have fun with.


Exactly. As others have said, this will work wonders for new player retention.



no no this is about CCP only caring about the bottom dollar and all that

edit - fixed fail quote


no it's not, it's about 80% of the playerbase wondering when learning skills would be removed for the past 5 years!

Learning skills are one of the reason I can never recomend this game to my friends, it's bull****! only hardcore sci fi fans can handle it! get rid of them! they don't make the game deeper!

They limit the game if anything.

Do you remember why they made all the ancestry lines the same? LEARNING SKILLS! They couldn't think of way to work it in with balance into the new system because of learning skills.

Now that's it's gone we can get some diversity into what you choose in character creation! And maybe it won't have to be based on attributes! Like bonuses to weapon damage or speed FOR YOUR LIFE TIME, based on your bloodline.

that would be AWESOME. Then no matter what skills were maxed you could feel like your race still had a tiny edge in one or other fields.

Originally by: Kazini Jax
While I am ok with the change, as long as you don't go overboard, I have to agree with those that say time lost should be reimbursed also. The time spent actually learning the skills at a slower SP/h pace than a newbie has to account for something. A 5-10% bonus reimburesemnt to Learning SPs earned. perhaps.
Also, calling that a 1/2 of a Xmas present? Really? That's like taking $50 from me, taking $3 and wrapping up the other $47 in a nice bow, giving it back, and saying "Merry Christmas!" (when taking into consideration the time spent debate).


wait what? But they are giving the time back.

think about it, you'd rather they not give you back the sp for learning skills but give you back gametime? Then you'd have to wait 2-3 months of free game time just to get that sp THEY WOULD OF GIVEN YOU FOR FREE.

the 4 million sp you have in learning skills is sp that was wasted. And you'r getting 3-5 MONTHS OF skills points FOR FREE in a split second, and you would rather opt for no sp, free gametime? WHAT THE HELL? WHY!?!?!

Alias Hentrah
Posted - 2010.11.26 01:41:00 - [984]
 

really nice, but what should the newbies do till all this change _actually_ arrive (without learning skills), eat dust? because if it doesn't goes throu the testing/QA till then...ugh

galphi
Gallente
Furnulum pani nolo
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2010.11.26 01:41:00 - [985]
 

omg I can't believe CCP are actually going to do this, amazing news and a big leap forward for the game. Should help new players get straight into it instead of spending their first weeks training to train Razz

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2010.11.26 01:41:00 - [986]
 

I see this as a good change. A while back I decided to make a crazy RP character just for ****s and giggles and nearly pulled my hair out with the learning skills all over again. It's days and days of "useless" skills that are required before you start training the fun stuff like pulse lasers. If I had truly been a new player, I simply wouldn't have trained them initially and would have pulled my hair out at it taking ages to train amarr frigate 3 instead.

Their removal is a good thing. I think the +12 base attribute points is a good solution as well. This increase will pretty much reflect what I have and the SP reimbursement is a nice christmas present I can throw into something a bit more fun. So it's a good deal all around. Really can't see why anyone would complain about this. It should have been done years ago.

Master Flakattack
Posted - 2010.11.26 01:47:00 - [987]
 

Edited by: Master Flakattack on 26/11/2010 01:53:53
Edited by: Master Flakattack on 26/11/2010 01:47:23
Originally by: Kazini Jax
While I am ok with the change, as long as you don't go overboard, I have to agree with those that say time lost should be reimbursed also. The time spent actually learning the skills at a slower SP/h pace than a newbie has to account for something. A 5-10% bonus reimburesemnt to Learning SPs earned. perhaps.
Also, calling that a 1/2 of a Xmas present? Really? That's like taking $50 from me, taking $3 and wrapping up the other $47 in a nice bow, giving it back, and saying "Merry Christmas!" (when taking into consideration the time spent debate).


While I understand that refunding us the skill book costs would introduce far too much money into the economy, I really do think that those of us who had to train those learning skills without a speed boost (like the noobs get now pre-learning skill genocide) should get some bonus SP. We wasted a lot of time training those at sub-par SP/hour rates.

Also what the hell, no neural remap? Seriously?

Originally by: MotherMoon
the 4 million sp you have in learning skills is sp that was wasted. And you'r getting 3-5 MONTHS OF skills points FOR FREE in a split second, and you would rather opt for no sp, free gametime? WHAT THE HELL? WHY!?!?!

You're missing the point. Imagine spending weeks training your learning skills up slowly at what, 800sp/hour, if that? Slowly, ever so slowly, you increase your sp/hour rate. It takes a damn long time to do so. Yes, you were getting exponentially faster skill gain, but no more so than what a new player will be able to crank out. Those skill points ARE NOT FREE. They cost us money and time, and not just learning skill at 2200sp/hour time, I mean learning skill at 800sp/hour time, which is damn slow...

I love this change. I hated the learning skills and I'm glad, for everyone's sake, they are gone. But just getting the SP back really isn't enough... we lost a lot of extra time to those skills, and are due some extra SP I think.

Rusty Waynne
Caldari
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2010.11.26 02:02:00 - [988]
 

Edited by: Rusty Waynne on 26/11/2010 02:01:54
I hate when people b.itch just for the sake of b.itching. Neutral

You ppl should consider growing up.


Boinz
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.26 02:02:00 - [989]
 

Originally by: Master Flakattack
Edited by: Master Flakattack on 26/11/2010 01:53:53
Edited by: Master Flakattack on 26/11/2010 01:47:23
Originally by: Kazini Jax
While I am ok with the change, as long as you don't go overboard, I have to agree with those that say time lost should be reimbursed also. The time spent actually learning the skills at a slower SP/h pace than a newbie has to account for something. A 5-10% bonus reimburesemnt to Learning SPs earned. perhaps.
Also, calling that a 1/2 of a Xmas present? Really? That's like taking $50 from me, taking $3 and wrapping up the other $47 in a nice bow, giving it back, and saying "Merry Christmas!" (when taking into consideration the time spent debate).


While I understand that refunding us the skill book costs would introduce far too much money into the economy, I really do think that those of us who had to train those learning skills without a speed boost (like the noobs get now pre-learning skill genocide) should get some bonus SP. We wasted a lot of time training those at sub-par SP/hour rates.

Also what the hell, no neural remap? Seriously?

Originally by: MotherMoon
the 4 million sp you have in learning skills is sp that was wasted. And you'r getting 3-5 MONTHS OF skills points FOR FREE in a split second, and you would rather opt for no sp, free gametime? WHAT THE HELL? WHY!?!?!

You're missing the point. Imagine spending weeks training your learning skills up slowly at what, 800sp/hour, if that? Slowly, ever so slowly, you increase your sp/hour rate. It takes a damn long time to do so. Yes, you were getting exponentially faster skill gain, but no more so than what a new player will be able to crank out. Those skill points ARE NOT FREE. They cost us money and time, and not just learning skill at 2200sp/hour time, I mean learning skill at 800sp/hour time, which is damn slow...

I love this change. I hated the learning skills and I'm glad, for everyone's sake, they are gone. But just getting the SP back really isn't enough... we lost a lot of extra time to those skills, and are due some extra SP I think.



Its peopple like this that make this community look like a bunch of crying big babies who always want more than they are given.Neutral

Zin Bloodjin
Posted - 2010.11.26 02:06:00 - [990]
 

Funny how the grizzled veterans who are against the change complain about the valuable real-world time they spent maxing out their Learning books, but don't seem to think it needs to change. I mean, they had to suffer thru it, but they're not complaining...Wink They're tough. Tough enough to insist their time feels wasted and everyone else's should too.

TUFF-E-NUFF to complain about 4 mil SP to redistribute as they see fit! F newbs! This game never ever loses players, why would it need new ones?Rolling Eyes


Pages: first : previous : ... 29 30 31 32 [33] 34 35 36 37 ... : last (67)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only