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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:21:00 - [901]
 

Originally by: Dinak Khnid
My investment in training skills was just that. You've rendered that investment null and void.


Eee... sorry? How so?

Cyberus
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:21:00 - [902]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Edited by: Tonto Auri on 25/11/2010 22:07:49
Originally by: Uki Egdoca
Originally by: Caldariftw123
I don't see how people can think that they are 'losing isk spent on learning skills' ??? You paid for the skillbook, you get the attributes. Whether you got them from training, or through this (AWESOME) change, you still get them. Just because they're not "officially" learning skills now everyone has the effect of them in place, so if they paid that's fair.


well, I have a 10mill sp character, just finished maxing out learning skills, thats 5,3mill. that means that in the time I have been training my learning skills, I have been "stuck" with my other half, 5mill sp, for about 5-6 months, over half my time playing eve. A time I could have spendt on lets say my drone and gunnery skills, getting more dps, finishing missions faster, and making more isk. So over the time I have been training learnig skills, you can see that I have "lost" more then just the isk on books.


You can still distribute these points into named skills. What's wrong, now?

Originally by: the tracter
Exclamationyour making the game so people or new players dont have to think.


Training learning skills was never a thoughtful choice. It was a straightforward nobrainer.


So what you are saying is that you never though about shall you train lerning skills to get advantage of training skills faster vs other players who deside to not do so? Make an choise?

Seems more like this skill was more like mandatory but still no one was forcing you to train those rigth?

Kyle Sucks
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:22:00 - [903]
 

I'm still worried about what happens to chars who recently remapped to factor in training lots of learning skills :[

Concornage
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:22:00 - [904]
 

Originally by: Dungheap
Originally by: KFenn
To all of you who simply jumped in to start whining about your small deficit on SP/Hr because you "wasted time" training up L5 learning skills, and didn't actually bother reading the discussion should take note of this:

Originally by: Charlotte Yakamoto
So, to the people whining about getting slower training times. True, you'll be training at 2700 SP/hour instead of 2772 SP/hour. Now take into account that you will have 5.3m SP that you can now put in skills you'd otherwise have to train. Putting these 72SP/h loss against a 5.3m SP win, it will take 3067 days, or about 8.3 years, until you ACTUALLY start losing out in actual skills trained. Until then, you're actually ahead.




noted. that's really some creative math he's done there. 8.3 yrs lol. bottom line is, after this change, i'll have the exact same sp as now, and train slower.

not really upset as it's good for the game but plz..Rolling Eyes


Plus as my post from before you had a much smaller SP/h when you trained for the 5.376mill sp making that 5.376mill sp worth more time than what you had before it was finally trained. My next post will actually include the math!

Vanir Waelcyrge
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:23:00 - [905]
 

I like the removal of learning skills, but most of the aggressive replies towards the ones not liking the changes are stupid.
And what about all these decimal discussions? Crying about losing a few SP/day is like crying every time a new skill is added to the game because "now I don't have the same percentage of the possible maximum anymore".
To describe the long term effects of this change we can compare three groups of players.
1) Old-timers with a big early investment in learning skills.
Group 1 is the only group with a very minor direct impact. Most of the time (but not all) they spent on learning skills, will be distributed to other skills. And they will keep the benefits of the increased speed before this change.
2) Old-timers who never really bothered with learning skills.
Group 2 will "instantly" get attributes increases comparable to 5/4 learning skills. They will from now on get as much new skills as group 1.
3) New players.
Group 3 will also start with a higher learning speed than both group 2 and 3 did.

The long term result?
Group 3 will over time have more skills than the others when compared at the same age. But group 1 and 2 will be OLDER and still have the extra SP from earlier years.
Group 2 will reduce the SP gap towards group 1, but will still stay behind.
And group 1 will still always have the most SP in absolute terms.

Why do I still believe this is a good change even if not everyone will come out ahead of everyone else?
The game is adding new skills over time and need to adapt the learning pace to reduce the risk of too specialized skill decisions. Long term enjoyment is increased for most players if they can do multiple things within the game.
New players will never be on equal footing with older players (one of the things I conceptually like about Eve) but letting the gap increase to much over time is bad for a shared gaming experience. This change reduces the speed of the gap increase.
I agree with the ppl scared of CCP reducing complexity and "dumbing" the game. But I always thought that the added complexity of learning skills hit players at the wrong time. Adding metagaming complexity at the start only reduces the immersion by focusing on minimaxing statistics. The firsts weeks of Eve should be focused on getting quick views of all that the universe offers. The complexity should be part of getting there when you decided what you want to do.

Fyrr Deerdan
Caldari
Epsilon Lyr
BPLAN
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:24:00 - [906]
 

Edited by: Fyrr Deerdan on 25/11/2010 22:24:06
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Superform
Edited by: Superform on 25/11/2010 12:41:19
graph one is not working, the skills needed dont jump.. but the line does.. please explain

edit.. i'll explain a bit more, the number of skill points to fly a drake well or good should be a constant.. in the 3rd line it isnt..


The third line in the first graph has ~500k SP in learning trained up front, which don't help you fly a Drake in the slightest. (Which is why we're removing them.)



That doesn't make much sense if you want to compare how soon you can jump in a drake from the time you start a character.

From an analytics standpoint, its comparing apples and oranges vs. what you're trying to show in the graph.

Can you please publish the "full" version of both graphs?

EliteStealth
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:24:00 - [907]
 

Wow so your going to make it so we train slower...that might be a problem. Most feel we train too slow as it is and taking away the higher attributes will only hurt the fun factor. The only way I see this working is if you lessen the training multiplier on the skills or its basically a big waste of time...I currently train at 2500 sp/hr and thats not the greatest but if you knock my attributes down then its gonna take me way longer to get where im going. Well to sum this little rant up if you want to make the game earn you more money how about making it MORE fun instead longer and more difficult to attain certain goals...

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:25:00 - [908]
 

Originally by: Kyle Sucks
I'm still worried about what happens to chars who recently remapped to factor in training lots of learning skills :[


That should have been your first remap. You still have one left, right?

Go suck some more.

Kyle Sucks
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:26:00 - [909]
 

Edited by: Kyle Sucks on 25/11/2010 22:26:30
Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
Originally by: Kyle Sucks
I'm still worried about what happens to chars who recently remapped to factor in training lots of learning skills :[


That should have been your first remap. You still have one left, right?

Go suck some more.



if you go 5/5 on your learning skills when you start, you have completely failed.

Easy ones to 4, then get your drake skills up. Then train the rest when you feel like it.

Ten Bulls
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:26:00 - [910]
 

Originally by: Concornage
Those of us all of us who did train learning skills to any amount it took us longer than it will after the change to learn ourselves up another 5.376mill SP or less and because of that I simply ask that they add what was lost in training time to gain those Learning attributes.


I dont understand the loss your talking about...

You get the skill points back that you used in the training time, so thats compensation. Or are you talking about something else ?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:27:00 - [911]
 

Originally by: Dungheap
noted. that's really some creative math he's done there. 8.3 yrs lol. bottom line is, after this change, i'll have the exact same sp as now, and train slower.
No. Bottom line is that, after this change you'll have more useful SP than now and potentially train slower.

You'll have less total SP, but as luck would have it, total SP has no use.

Billy Kidd
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:29:00 - [912]
 

Edited by: Billy Kidd on 25/11/2010 22:34:27
So maybe we should all get an extra remap with the removal of the learning skills so that we can re-optimize our skill plans.

Edit: Also, is anyone going to lose attribute points because of this?

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:30:00 - [913]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 25/11/2010 22:47:31

By my rough calculations, this seems to be a nerf if you had trained 5/5. I only did that on my alts.

It will take me a while to figure out where to best put 2,214,825 SP (up to 3,479,295 on alts).

Have to switch most queues over to high rate learning skills when I get home!

EDIT: Achura checking-in!

_Me_: +1.3c / +0.3i / +0.7p / +0.8m / +1.0w (good)
Alt 1: +1.2c / +0.2i / +1.0p / +1.0m / +1.2w (good)
Alt 2: +1.2c / -0.9i / +1.2p / -0.3m / +1.2w (bad, research alt)
Alt 3: +1.2c / -0.3i / +1.2p / -0.9m / +1.2w (neutral, general alt)

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:32:00 - [914]
 

Originally by: Billy Kidd
So maybe we should all get an extra remap with the removal of the learning skills so that we can re-optimize our skill plans.
Why would you need to? Isn't your current mapping optimal for your skill plan?

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:33:00 - [915]
 

Originally by: Cyberus
So what you are saying is that you never though about shall you train lerning skills to get advantage of training skills faster vs other players who deside to not do so? Make an choise?

No. It was obvious as a truck heading your way.

Quote:
Seems more like this skill was more like mandatory but still no one was forcing you to train those rigth?

I didn't said it was mandatory. It was a choics that wasn't required a brain to produce.

Billy Kidd
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:37:00 - [916]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Billy Kidd
So maybe we should all get an extra remap with the removal of the learning skills so that we can re-optimize our skill plans.
Why would you need to? Isn't your current mapping optimal for your skill plan?


Nah I don't need to. I was just responding to Kyle Sucks. Thought I would post right under him, but looks like I took too long.

Activa
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:37:00 - [917]
 

Quote:
Seems more like this skill was more like mandatory but still no one was forcing you to train those rigth?

I didn't said it was mandatory. It was a choics that wasn't required a brain to produce.


It isnt about a nobrainer, its about dedication, patience and choice.

shashaa
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:38:00 - [918]
 

Is EVE dying? .... Again?

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:41:00 - [919]
 

Originally by: Activa
Quote:
Quote:
Seems more like this skill was more like mandatory but still no one was forcing you to train those rigth?

I didn't said it was mandatory. It was a choics that wasn't required a brain to produce.


It isnt about a nobrainer, its about dedication, patience and choice.


Wat? Dedication to brainlessness? OMG, I didn't hough we would hit THIS wall...
(Also fail at quoting)

Kurfin
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:41:00 - [920]
 

I'm so happy, something may burstVery Happy

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:41:00 - [921]
 

Originally by: Billy Kidd
Nah I don't need to. I was just responding to Kyle Sucks. Thought I would post right under him, but looks like I took too long.
Ah, makes sense then. And yes, standard caution applies to fast-moving threadnoughts… Razz

Activa
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:43:00 - [922]
 

Wat? Dedication to brainlessness? OMG, I didn't hough we would hit THIS wall...
(Also fail at quoting)


Why you actually play then? The endless skilling is also a nobrainer

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:45:00 - [923]
 

Originally by: Activa
Quote:
Wat? Dedication to brainlessness? OMG, I didn't hough we would hit THIS wall...
(Also fail at quoting)


Why you actually play then? The endless skilling is also a nobrainer

Fail again.
Skilling to fly certain ships to fulfill a certain role is hardly a nobrainer. Learning skills are not applicable to any ship you could choose.

Cyberus
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:45:00 - [924]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Activa
Quote:
Quote:
Seems more like this skill was more like mandatory but still no one was forcing you to train those rigth?

I didn't said it was mandatory. It was a choics that wasn't required a brain to produce.


It isnt about a nobrainer, its about dedication, patience and choice.


Wat? Dedication to brainlessness? OMG, I didn't hough we would hit THIS wall...
(Also fail at quoting)


It was not my quote :)Laughing

Lyrrashae
Minmatar
Crushed Ambitions
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:53:00 - [925]
 

About bloody time, and done right.

Now, pleasepleasepleaseplease* bring back the pre-Apocrypha character creation, and restore some diversity of identity to people's characters--the old version was so much more immersive, and part of what made EVE fun/addictive right from the get-go, when I paid my first sub in January 2009.

(*Please? With faction-sugar on top?)

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 22:57:00 - [926]
 

Originally by: Lyrrashae
Now, pleasepleasepleaseplease* bring back the pre-Apocrypha character creation


You do realize that CCP removing choices that restrict people in what they get in result? The "pre-xxx" was basically forcing to choose specific races/bloodlines for specific tasks.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.11.25 23:00:00 - [927]
 

Originally by: Lyrrashae
About bloody time, and done right.

Now, pleasepleasepleaseplease* bring back the pre-Apocrypha character creation, and restore some diversity of identity to people's characters--the old version was so much more immersive, and part of what made EVE fun/addictive right from the get-go, when I paid my first sub in January 2009.
It might have been a bit more immersive, but it was far more limiting and offered much less diversity than the current system.

Have you forgotten the hordes of Achuras? The very specific choices you'd have to take to make a trade alt? The specific choices you had to make to get a cyno alt? Everyone picked the same things. There might have been some 100+ options, but only 5-10 of them made any sense to pick. Now, people can actually customize their characters as they want them to be, not the way the character creation forces them to be.

Karak Terrel
As Far As The eYe can see
Chained Reactions
Posted - 2010.11.25 23:02:00 - [928]
 

Yeeeeeeeeee... already planed what to do with this "free" SP lol

Very good change, thx CCP!!

Cresalle
Posted - 2010.11.25 23:08:00 - [929]
 

Edited by: Cresalle on 25/11/2010 23:12:48
Originally by: Othran
Originally by: Cresalle
Quote:
Also, recycling alts is against the rules and will get you banned.


What constitutes 'recycling alts' and where is this rule stated?

Seriously, is there a list of these bizzare rules somewhere? I keep hearing people mention things but how the hell am I supposed to know what's hearsay and what's a real rule?


Someone hits you with the banstick.

Alternatively you could use your brain and realise that using an alt to gank people until said alt goes below -5 and then deleting him/her isn't fair. Not only is it not fair, its just pointless nonsense. Whats the point in another mind-numbingly boring gank?

I suspect you're not the type who understands that.


Thank you for allowing me to clarify my complaint:

You are not an employee of CCP, nor is posting on the n'th page of a random forum thread an effective means of deliniating a ruleset.

You are, in fact, a player of EVE and therefore in direct competition with myself for every resource including information and tactical planning. You're also obviously lacking in social graces since you seem to think that it's necessary to insult me for asking a question of someone else.

This isn't kiddy-fun-time where we all sit around and lick Barney the Dinosaur's etc etc. I could quite easily spread false information about some 'rule' that I made up in the hopes of making my competition hesitant to use certain tactics against me. Now that would be unfair. (And I don't do that either because it would also be pathetic.) I fully expect my competition to do it though. Rumor and hearsay are tools for social manipulation. Social manipulation is a part of EVE.

So while I'm 'using my brain' as you call it, you're getting ganked in hisec I guess. I suppose you probably don't like that and therefore you think it's not 'fun'. Obviously since you aren't having fun then whatever it is that's bothering you is against the rules. For instance, when people shoot at you. That's no fun. So if I 'use my brain' that makes it against the rules and it's 'pointless nonsense', right?

So obviously since I dared to raise the point I'm some sort of miserable hisec chain-ganker making billions off your freighter packed with PLEX. Or, and here's a funny thought, maybe I just want the ****ing rules to be laid out clearly.

tl/dr:

1) I've never done that. (I live in nulsec, noob. I don't lose sec when I kill people.)
2) Don't talk to me.
3) The complaint stands. I want (from CCP) a comprehensive list of these 'rules' that are not included in the ToS or any of the official rulesets listed under the 'Game Policies' section of the website.

This Suxbad
Posted - 2010.11.25 23:11:00 - [930]
 

ok this may have been answerd but I didn't want to go through 30+ pages and I saw some people beating on someone about it.
My question is can we be able to remap (if not currently able) after the change? And the reason would be that since I will be applying a large number of skill points to items I had planned to train then my skill plan may change and I would possibly want to re-map.
i.e. I will be whacking off (no jokes) about 50 days of my current 120 day plan.


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