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Sir HyperChrist
Amarr
Persnickety Pilots
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:59:00 - [781]
 

Three comments/problems on/with this change:

1) I trained 2 alts on my account used only for their buildslots. I have no use for skillpoints
from "released training skills" on those accounts: can I have them transferred to my main char?

2) On my main my total amount of attribute points = 22+22+22+26.4+33 = 125.4 (maxed out)
My new total will be 20+20+20+20+19 + 5*5(implants) = 124 points. Can you guys add 1 or 2 points to the currently 14 freely distributable points to compensate?

3)
Maxed training speeds will be SLOWER:
=====================================

Recap attributes:

Currently:
5 base on each skill
10 max added by training
5 max added by implants
+10% added on all by training.
Maxed learning skills would give you (Int,Perc,Cha,Will,Mem)
Base: 5, 5, 5, 5, 5
Learning: 10,10,10,10,10
+Implant: 5, 5, 5, 5, 5
+10%: 2, 2, 2, 2, 2
Total base:22,22,22,22,22

To this you could distribute 14 points (15,4) with a max of 10(11) to a single score.
The best combo would be primary 22+11=33, secondary 22+4,4=26,4 for a total of 2772 points per hour (pph).
The worst combo would be 22/22 for a total of 1980 pph.

Patch proposal:
Base: 17,17,17,17,17
+Implant: 22,22,22,22,22

Then freely distribute 14 points: (+10/+4)
Best combo: 32 primary, 26 secondary: (32 + 0.5*26)*60 = 2700 pph
Worst combo: 22 primary, 22 secondary, same total as before: 1980 pph

Skilltraining seems to go 2.6% slower than it currently does, is that intended?

SOLUTION:
=========
If you ADD TWO POINTS to the freely distributable pool, you can get 2760 pph, which is a lot
closer to the current 2772 pph.

-my 2 cents

Capsuleer Newton
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:59:00 - [782]
 

Originally by: john roe
Originally by: Tonto Auri :

"EVE remains as enjoyable as it is"


then i want your version of this game because obviously we are playing 2 different types of eve. enjoyment in this game has ended (at least for me) around 2007.
i am here only to see how this game is gonna die.



HAH!!! Such dedication... LMAO...

Shaemell Buttleson
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:59:00 - [783]
 

Woot!

They payed dividends with the faster learning for years and now I've got around four and a half mil of points to put on what I want.

Nice one CCP!ughLaughingCool





Sub Prime
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:59:00 - [784]
 

Edited by: Sub Prime on 25/11/2010 20:00:30
All the complainers should be pickled in a jar and labelled as "An example of Darwinism - Those that rely on a fictional game to think they are better that others - they are infact lesser"

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:00:00 - [785]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 25/11/2010 20:02:48
Originally by: Lahnius
14.95 per month ... my first month in EVE, so I'm not too awful troubled by all of this ... however, I do truly feel for those that have spent the couple months training the learning skills only to be presented with "ok the learning skills are going away, but hey here's a few changes to compensate the slap in the face, and by the way, dont be bothered with the fact that you spent weeks and roughly 30 bones for nothing ... merry christmas" Shocked

Yea, thats nice ... wait, what?


what are you talking about? if a new player spent the 1st month training learning skills then they get to remap about 2 million sp into useful skills that would of taken twice as long to get in the new system.

In fact if you just finished training your learning skills at double speed THEN YOUR BENEFITING THE MOST because newer players will traing at about 67% the speed you did.

Quote:
2) On my main my total amount of attribute points = 22+22+22+26.4+33 = 125.4 (maxed out) My new total will be 20+20+20+20+19 + 5*5(implants) = 124 points. Can you guys add 1 or 2 points to the currently 14 freely distributable points to compensate?


agreed however, they need to add 2 extra points. Maybe based on race or ancestry since that does nothing in game right now?

john roe
BearingPoint
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:01:00 - [786]
 

Originally by: Capsuleer Newton
Originally by: john roe
Originally by: Tonto Auri :

"EVE remains as enjoyable as it is"


then i want your version of this game because obviously we are playing 2 different types of eve. enjoyment in this game has ended (at least for me) around 2007.
i am here only to see how this game is gonna die.



HAH!!! Such dedication... LMAO...


ah... LMAO/LOL generation kids are with us tonight.
how sweet...
...here is your candy [candy]

Jane Griffin
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:01:00 - [787]
 

Edited by: Jane Griffin on 25/11/2010 20:01:59
I was reflexively against this change when i first heard it.
But after some thought, and realising that the substantive reasons for not doing it amount to older players wanting a time sink to remain in the game, i support this change.

I would have done it slightly different, like instead of giving new players 12 points/att on joining, they get 1/2 extra attribute per week.

Or if im was feeling particularly mean to the people who train disposable alts, maybe 2 attribute points for each of the tutorial missions passed lol.

Claude Jorgen
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:02:00 - [788]
 

CCP Greyscale Modified Tachyon Beam Laser hits Learning Skills for 4,096,000 Wrecking !



Woot.

Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:02:00 - [789]
 

Edited by: Jdestars on 25/11/2010 20:04:49
bad/good news
This modification is going to allow the -octopuses with a lot account to take up an alt more quickly without penalties theire account
(csm are always a lobby club ... )
maybe this mod regrowing isk spammer too

more easy access for new play (carefull Dev , Eve its not a Counter Strike Game )

Black Point
how its modification work with half part attribut ?
some attribute like 26.5 or 26.9 ? ... 12 point Look like a blow of plane if you dont integrate half part of point

ex with base attribut : 13/6/6/5/9
with +5 implant and all learning
30/23/23/22/26 Show in the charactersheet but calculated 30.8 /23.1 /23.1 /22 /26.4

with 12 point

30/23/23/22/26 => lost 1.4 pt of attribut
Thus dear Dev you need to verify all the collateral damages of the modification


Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:03:00 - [790]
 

Originally by: john roe
Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: john roe
beginning eve 2010 :

I WANT IT ALL AND I WANT IT NOW!
GIVE ME! GIVE ME! GIVE ME!


fast-food generation.




Where? I wanna be the first!!! Oh, it's was a joke? Shame on you... I though it was real...


it's called a sarcasm, mate.
only pointed out which way this game is heading... what it's changing into.
into fast-food game.

anyway, dont bother with that, mate.
this whole concept is way too complicated for you, apparently.


It was a joke, not a sarcasm. It does not "leading" in any way with this change. Learning skills do not affect the game itself, only the time in which new character can fly, say, battleship. Even with this change, that said time won't be instant, or even short. Very enough to actually learn the game.
Stop moaning.

Ja'ihra
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:03:00 - [791]
 

Edited by: Ja''ihra on 25/11/2010 20:03:09
Quote:
So, no love for the new players that just started the game and invested most(if not all) of there money in learning skills?

Well they do get max learning skills + SP reimbursement of whatever they already trained, i would call that quite some love. It isnt as if something is taken from them.


Hmm, blog says:
All skillpoints invested in learning skills will be reimbursed, including all the fiddly corner cases. If you have 2,012,692 SP in learning, you will find yourself down those skills, but with 2,012,692 skillpoints to redistribute.

I don't read anything about max learning reimbursed, while not having them trained only injected.

Sub Prime
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:05:00 - [792]
 

Edited by: Sub Prime on 25/11/2010 20:05:52
The majority of ****tards don't seem to appreciate that refund of learning skills is provided in SP, not time. Therefore EVERYONE who has a clue will invest the SP in skills that:

a) Require attributes that they wouldn't ever remap for directly.
b) Enable you negate/delay a remap because you can spent the SP on those key skills.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:05:00 - [793]
 

Originally by: john roe
Originally by: Tonto Auri :

"EVE remains as enjoyable as it is"


then i want your version of this game because obviously we are playing 2 different types of eve. enjoyment in this game has ended (at least for me) around 2007.
i am here only to see how this game is gonna die.



Why don't you unsubscribe already, if it is such a heavy burden for you in last three years? It's not like EVE is your wife to which you have obligations...

Shinoi
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:08:00 - [794]
 

CCP, could you please also set all skills max lvl 4? No need to train any of them to 5 it seems, why bother?Very Happy
While you're at it, i could never afford lvl 5 implants so could you max them to +4 as well? Thx in advance.

madmax 27
Madhatters Inc.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:08:00 - [795]
 

I hope you have anticipated the influx of wow players coming to eve by doing this.

Oh even more growth for eve yay yay extra cash, oh scotty we got problem!!! This creates more lag Evil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very Mad

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:08:00 - [796]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 25/11/2010 20:08:33
Originally by: Ja'ihra
Edited by: Ja''ihra on 25/11/2010 20:03:09
Quote:
So, no love for the new players that just started the game and invested most(if not all) of there money in learning skills?

Well they do get max learning skills + SP reimbursement of whatever they already trained, i would call that quite some love. It isnt as if something is taken from them.


Hmm, blog says:
All skillpoints invested in learning skills will be reimbursed, including all the fiddly corner cases. If you have 2,012,692 SP in learning, you will find yourself down those skills, but with 2,012,692 skillpoints to redistribute.

I don't read anything about max learning reimbursed, while not having them trained only injected.


I also didnt say that. But those people now dont have learning skills then. After this change they effectively have max learning skills. So nothing is taken away from them, they only can skip training learnign skills, so how are they hurt?

Quote:
Sure, most of the people in this thread do not feel negatively impacted by this loss.

Which loss? It isnt for anyone a loss.

devonii
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:09:00 - [797]
 

Well, I actually looked at training skills and the implants as a long-term investment. I spent a LOT of ISK on them and invested a lot of time in them. Since I have perfect learning skills on all my characters, and will now be loosing out, CCP basically just **** on me to help out a bunch of newbies who haven't invested anywhere near what I have over the past four years. IF CCP is going to take away the skillbooks without actually reimbursing the cost, they are stealing ISK that we invested to buy the skillbooks while giving newbies the same "skillbooks" for free. In addition, all the time and investment that we spent to get to lvl 5 is being taken away. Even if it's 1.4 attributes difference at the end of the day, it should be reimbursed. Giving everyone the same treatment is punishing a group of long-term players in the game so they can keep everyone else happy. 1.4 attributes of the top advanced learning skills is basically the same, when you include not refunding the ISK we spent on buying the skillbooks, as CCP taking two plexes from us and not giving us anything in return.

Thanks and Merry Christmas. Please don't give us any gifts like this going forward.

Disappointed and ****ed!!!

Long as CCP gets a couple new players though, they shouldn't mind losing long-term 4 and 5 year players like me for a few months I guess.


Calenthia
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:09:00 - [798]
 

It seems, from reading the blogpost and a lot of the comments in this thread, that the ones who benefit from this are players who are just starting (or about to start (I'm looking at you, Steam with your 75% off atm)), players who never bothered to create an intelligent skilltraining schedule and invest SP for long-term gain, and players who spent their SP on learning skills and have played long enough to benefit from them.

This leaves only the fourth group: people who have recently spent a lot of time investing in their learning skills instead of the "fun skills", and have yet to profit from the time spent learning these. Unfortunately, I am one of these people. I understand that we will get reimbursed for the skill points, but it still feels a bit sour in knowing that these past weeks could have been spent on other, more useful, skills. We will no longer have the joy of slowly catching up to the people who started earlier but never bothered spending points on the learning skills. All that money i just spent on skillbooks hurts a bit as well, but not as much as losing the long-term advantage of spending my skillpoints intelligently.

I applaud CCP for making a decision which benefits most of the playerbase though. I know I am in a serious minority compared to all you multiyear subscriber vets.

kwix
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:09:00 - [799]
 

Edited by: kwix on 25/11/2010 20:13:13
FANTASTIC!!!!

I wish the learning skills never existed in the first place and, yes, those of us who suffered through maxing our learning skills get slightly disadvantaged by this (most of my toons are maxed learning).

However, rather than limp along with this monkey on our back trying to figure out the ultimately fair/equitable way to undo the learning skills, this is an EXCELLENT choice.

Can't wait to get my skill points reallocated....I'm also stoked that I can spend a little time training my alts to be useful. I never train my alts because the thought of wasted time and their poor learning skills always stops me from investing in those toons.

Props CCP!

Sub Prime
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:10:00 - [800]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: john roe
Originally by: Tonto Auri :

"EVE remains as enjoyable as it is"


then i want your version of this game because obviously we are playing 2 different types of eve. enjoyment in this game has ended (at least for me) around 2007.
i am here only to see how this game is gonna die.



Why don't you unsubscribe already, if it is such a heavy burden for you in last three years? It's not like EVE is your wife to which you have obligations...


He/She has no intention of unsubbing because he/she actually still enjoys eve but he/she is bitter, twisted and can't integrate into society. Unfortunately there are lots of similar people in the eve forums. Basically they don't generate enough attyention in RL so they feel the need to try and generate this attention in forums.

john roe
BearingPoint
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:10:00 - [801]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: john roe
Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: john roe
beginning eve 2010 :

I WANT IT ALL AND I WANT IT NOW!
GIVE ME! GIVE ME! GIVE ME!


fast-food generation.




Where? I wanna be the first!!! Oh, it's was a joke? Shame on you... I though it was real...


it's called a sarcasm, mate.
only pointed out which way this game is heading... what it's changing into.
into fast-food game.

anyway, dont bother with that, mate.
this whole concept is way too complicated for you, apparently.


It was a joke, not a sarcasm. It does not "leading" in any way with this change. Learning skills do not affect the game itself, only the time in which new character can fly, say, battleship. Even with this change, that said time won't be instant, or even short. Very enough to actually learn the game.
Stop moaning.



yes, cause when YOU were born you could walk, run, dance and do all kind of stuff from day 1.

this particular change means nothing to me.
i dont care about ISK nor SPs (my chars have stopped around 100-120M. they got all they need). all i care is that eve is evolving into wrong direction.
simplyfing this game you are actualy killing it.

eve-online was a parallel universe once.
was mysterious and epic.
and cccp lost that magic at some point. making really bad dev. decisions.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:10:00 - [802]
 

Originally by: Sub Prime
Edited by: Sub Prime on 25/11/2010 20:05:52
The majority of ****tards don't seem to appreciate that refund of learning skills is provided in SP, not time. Therefore EVERYONE who has a clue will invest the SP in skills that:

a) Require attributes that they wouldn't ever remap for directly.
b) Enable you negate/delay a remap because you can spent the SP on those key skills.


To understand such concept, one would need a brain Crying or Very sad
Sadly, these whiners lack of such posession.

Capsuleer Newton
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:11:00 - [803]
 

Originally by: john roe
Originally by: Capsuleer Newton
Originally by: john roe
Originally by: Tonto Auri :

"EVE remains as enjoyable as it is"


then i want your version of this game because obviously we are playing 2 different types of eve. enjoyment in this game has ended (at least for me) around 2007.
i am here only to see how this game is gonna die.



HAH!!! Such dedication... LMAO...


ah... LMAO/LOL generation kids are with us tonight.
how sweet...
...here is your candy [candy]


why thank you, people always think i'm still a bit young despite my age, maybe the looks? hehehe...

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:11:00 - [804]
 

Originally by: devonii
Well, I actually looked at training skills and the implants as a long-term investment. I spent a LOT of ISK on them and invested a lot of time in them. Since I have perfect learning skills on all my characters, and will now be loosing out, CCP basically just **** on me to help out a bunch of newbies who haven't invested anywhere near what I have over the past four years. IF CCP is going to take away the skillbooks without actually reimbursing the cost, they are stealing ISK that we invested to buy the skillbooks while giving newbies the same "skillbooks" for free. In addition, all the time and investment that we spent to get to lvl 5 is being taken away. Even if it's 1.4 attributes difference at the end of the day, it should be reimbursed. Giving everyone the same treatment is punishing a group of long-term players in the game so they can keep everyone else happy. 1.4 attributes of the top advanced learning skills is basically the same, when you include not refunding the ISK we spent on buying the skillbooks, as CCP taking two plexes from us and not giving us anything in return.

Thanks and Merry Christmas. Please don't give us any gifts like this going forward.

Disappointed and ****ed!!!

Long as CCP gets a couple new players though, they shouldn't mind losing long-term 4 and 5 year players like me for a few months I guess.



Stupid much? What is stolen from you? You dont lose ANYTHING. Well to be completely honest it is possible your max learning speed goes a bit down. However as calculated it will be arround 8 years until you have less effective SP due to this change, because you now first get 4.5M SP.

Lahnius
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:13:00 - [805]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Sub Prime
Edited by: Sub Prime on 25/11/2010 20:05:52
The majority of ****tards don't seem to appreciate that refund of learning skills is provided in SP, not time. Therefore EVERYONE who has a clue will invest the SP in skills that:

a) Require attributes that they wouldn't ever remap for directly.
b) Enable you negate/delay a remap because you can spent the SP on those key skills.


To understand such concept, one would need a brain Crying or Very sad
Sadly, these whiners lack of such posession.



...the lack of consideration and compassion for newer players is astounding as well ... Rolling Eyes

john roe
BearingPoint
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:14:00 - [806]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: john roe
Originally by: Tonto Auri :

"EVE remains as enjoyable as it is"


then i want your version of this game because obviously we are playing 2 different types of eve. enjoyment in this game has ended (at least for me) around 2007.
i am here only to see how this game is gonna die.



Why don't you unsubscribe already, if it is such a heavy burden for you in last three years? It's not like EVE is your wife to which you have obligations...



actualy, for some time now, eve is for me an IRC with pretty cool GUI :]
i mean it. the only good thing about this is that i dont pay for this chit-chat with reall money. only isk. otherwise i would jump off the bridge a long time ago.

EdwardNardella
Capital Construction Research
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:14:00 - [807]
 

I feared this change, I was wrong to dis trust you CCP.

Thanks for this lovely gift. The redistributed points will put me into some goals that are over three months away!

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:14:00 - [808]
 

Originally by: Calenthia
This leaves only the fourth group: people who have recently spent a lot of time investing in their learning skills instead of the "fun skills", and have yet to profit from the time spent learning these. Unfortunately, I am one of these people. I understand that we will get reimbursed for the skill points, but it still feels a bit sour in knowing that these past weeks could have been spent on other, more useful, skills. We will no longer have the joy of slowly catching up to the people who started earlier but never bothered spending points on the learning skills. All that money i just spent on skillbooks hurts a bit as well, but not as much as losing the long-term advantage of spending my skillpoints intelligently.

I applaud CCP for making a decision which benefits most of the playerbase though. I know I am in a serious minority compared to all you multiyear subscriber vets.


Well, if you're capable of planning ahead, then here's a hint: Do what you was going to do. Up until the change, and to a maximum efficiency. Then you'll benefit from it as well.

If you feel sore for a money loss in these books... Well, consider it was unlucky incident in lowsec. At least you got away with your POD uncracked... Carry on, and welcome to EVE.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:17:00 - [809]
 

While I'm happy I have between 3.5 and 4.7mi SP to redistribute among each of my chars, somehow it feels slightly wrong (not the actual implementation err.. removal, but the fact they are being removed), and IIRC I argued against it in AH. But I agree this is one of the best ways to reduce the entry barrier for noobs, just also a removal of the long term planning / commitment you had to make before.

john roe
BearingPoint
Posted - 2010.11.25 20:18:00 - [810]
 

Originally by: EdwardNardella
I feared this change, I was wrong to dis trust you CCP.

Thanks for this lovely gift. The redistributed points will put me into some goals that are over three months away!



how about CCCP giving you ALL skills at lv5 and around 600 gazillions of isk?
what would be your reason to log in (after ofc trashing every possible ship in this game at least twice) ?
why would you play? would this game has any meaning to you?

'all good things to those who way' said some cannibal once.


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