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Katharina B
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:39:00 - [751]
 

Originally by: z4e
I LOVE GREYSCALE!

That blog was epic haha.

Im all up for waiting and seeing, would love the extra SP to get some boring skills blitzed! =)


EXTRA? LOL. You have learned the skillpoints. It is like take it away from Amarr Battleship to some Gunneryskills. You do not get EXTRA SP. -.-
With the learning skills we have lost an advantage in skilling. If you do THAT; I demand to get Capital Ships to Level 5 for all new players, because the waste of time to learn this is too much. Give all Level 5's if they want. No timewaste for anybody. Think in the long run man! :-(

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:39:00 - [752]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 25/11/2010 19:40:16
Originally by: john roe
Edited by: john roe on 25/11/2010 19:37:52

what's next?

free SPs for t2 gear?
...to make this game even more convenient for noobies?

Maybe you auto self destruct when coming within 10km of someone who has more SP than you have? Since i suppose you are scared player skill is important instead of how much time you spend learning skills.

Quote:
EXTRA? LOL. You have learned the skillpoints. It is like take it away from Amarr Battleship to some Gunneryskills. You do not get EXTRA SP. -.-
With the learning skills we have lost an advantage in skilling. If you do THAT; I demand to get Capital Ships to Level 5 for all new players, because the waste of time to learn this is too much. Give all Level 5's if they want. No timewaste for anybody. Think in the long run man! :-(

We dont have it now, we have it when this happens, we dont lose anything. Of course it is extra.

Skythunder Alexandria
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:39:00 - [753]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Skythunder Alexandria
Comments such as this are just as short-sighted as the changes we are discussing. Here is why:

1) Most of us who trained the Learning tree, did so at an early age, when ISK and our investment of time were at a premium. We did not have a "main" and 3 alts to fund +5 implants to knock out the learning tree in a month and a half... we spent several weeks grinding enough ISK just to buy the damn skills, and then spent the better part of six months maxing the skills out (which I admit, I still have not taken Charisma to +10... I just can't justify the last 3 weeks it would take to get there)!

2) Now that we have "grown up", all we have left to invest those 4+mil SP into with the refunded points, are x5, x8, x12 skills. So essentially, I get 11 skills taken away, ang if I'm lucky, I might get to train 2 skills from lvl 4 to lvl 5... something that would take me a couple of months at the most, with the new attributes you will put in, plus my current set of implants.

So to dumb this thought down even further:

nOObS = rejoice!!!!!!!111

Veterans = bend over and take the big communist weenie where the sun don't shine!


Ok, tell me, what you! You, I mean you, don't look around... What you loosing with this change? Time? Nope, you don't loose anything. Any trained skills? None besides learnings being removed. You loosing about 72SP/hour training speed. And get your rightfully trained SP handed back to you in one package.
Anything i'm missing?


Yes. You forgot to read what I wrote!

KurnKuku
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:40:00 - [754]
 

Originally by: Skythunder Alexandria
Originally by: KurnKuku
Originally by: Skythunder Alexandria
Originally by: Jacque Cousteu
W00T the equivalent of all L5 learning skills without having to train them, then a massive reimbursement of current sp in learning...


I LOVE IT!!!!Very HappyShockedCoolLaughing


Comments such as this are just as short-sighted as the changes we are discussing. Here is why:

1) Most of us who trained the Learning tree, did so at an early age, when ISK and our investment of time were at a premium. We did not have a "main" and 3 alts to fund +5 implants to knock out the learning tree in a month and a half... we spent several weeks grinding enough ISK just to buy the damn skills, and then spent the better part of six months maxing the skills out (which I admit, I still have not taken Charisma to +10... I just can't justify the last 3 weeks it would take to get there)!

2) Now that we have "grown up", all we have left to invest those 4+mil SP into with the refunded points, are x5, x8, x12 skills. So essentially, I get 11 skills taken away, ang if I'm lucky, I might get to train 2 skills from lvl 4 to lvl 5... something that would take me a couple of months at the most, with the new attributes you will put in, plus my current set of implants.

So to dumb this thought down even further:

nOObS = rejoice!!!!!!!111

Veterans = bend over and take the big communist weenie where the sun don't shine!


So what you are really saying is "I had to spend time training learning skills, and even though I am not going to be affected by this change, I don't want it implemented because I want other people to have to train it, because I had to" ?


Yes... exactly.

If by "...not going to be affected by", you really mean, "...will only get 1/4 of my investment returned"

AND

If, by "had to", your really mean "chose to".


OK, glad I cleared that up. You prefer other people to suffer the learning skills rather than enjoying the game sooner, because you did.

OK.

Skythunder Alexandria
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:42:00 - [755]
 

Originally by: Lahnius
...so, basically EVE is being slowly tailored for those that usually find happiness in the daily statement:

"Look Mommy, I'm shooting stuff..." Rolling Eyes

...please, if your reply is "dont be stupid", or some long drawn out blast at my n00bisheticness, then just hush 'cuz flames fall on deaf ears...

...meh...


/me laughs hysterically until tears start to flow

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:42:00 - [756]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 25/11/2010 19:43:16
AS A 5+ YEAR PLAYER I HAVE JUST RESUBBED FOR THIS CHANGE! **** YEAH CCP!

learning skills do not make the make easier for older players.

removing them does not make it it so newer players are somehow going to catch up with my beefy 40million sp over night.



gogo ccp!

john roe
BearingPoint
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:43:00 - [757]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Lahnius
...so, basically EVE is being slowly tailored for those that usually find happiness in the daily statement:

"Look Mommy, I'm shooting stuff..." Rolling Eyes

...please, if your reply is "dont be stupid", or some long drawn out blast at my n00bisheticness, then just hush 'cuz flames fall on deaf ears...

...meh...

My reply is "you're idiot". Because even stupid monkey can see that nothing that really affecting THE GAME haven't been removed or altered by this change.



beginning eve around 2005.

weeks of training learnirn skills.
knowing the game.
getting familiar with surroundings and ppl.
getting some experience before starting the real voyage.



beginning eve 2010 :

I WANT IT ALL AND I WANT IT NOW!
GIVE ME! GIVE ME! GIVE ME!


fast-food generation.


Kell Hunter
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:44:00 - [758]
 

i love CCP again! *Hugs* all is forgiven!

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:45:00 - [759]
 

Edited by: AkJon Ferguson on 25/11/2010 19:59:43
Continuing my line of thought.

This is a really stupid idea, CCP. Here's a better one:

Get rid of tier 1 learning skills EXCEPT LEARNING.

Give everyone the 5 points from the tier 1's.
Reduce tier 2 learning skills to a x1 or x2 train. Reimburse the difference to those who've already trained them.
Reduce the noob bonus from 100% to 50%.

Fire the idiot who came up with the existing plan, since it took me about 5 minutes to come up with a better one, for free.

That way everyone is happy.

Edit: Buddy down below came up with a better idea than mine, just get rid of tier 2 learning and reimburse and leave everything else alone. Problem solved.

rashaverak
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:46:00 - [760]
 

I see this change as negative. If the reason behind it is to remove the boredom of training learning skills for new players then I think that there are many alternatives to boost new player skill learning in the early part of the game.
Training the learning skills to an appropriate level is a choice that should remain open to players just as they can choose career paths, racial ships and weapons etc.
I suspect that most players trained them all to 4 earlier in the game and only went to 5 once their commitment to Eve was firmly established. Regardless I think that those players that took the trouble to max out these skills should be recognised with some form of slightly accelerated SP generation and the ability for any player to achieve this in some way other than implants should be retained.
I doubt that a huge percentage of the player base has actually maxed all these skills and I can only see this as a dumbing down.

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:46:00 - [761]
 

Suddenly, I feel so uneducated... oh wait then I feel the same as yesterday Surprised

Gartanus
Caldari
Gartanus Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:48:00 - [762]
 

So if I understand this right, we will lose our learning skills. Mine are all at 5 now. But we will be getting back the isk we spent for said skills correct? If thats the case I am a very happy pod pilot cause I am saving for my marauder. Every little bit helps and I am glad to see the learning skills go. Razz

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:48:00 - [763]
 

Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 25/11/2010 19:50:11
Boo. Urns.

You seem to have picked the right implementation path, so I can't complain there(though I would suggest one minor tweak - make base atts 20 across the board, because -1 Cha is ugly and unnecessary, and it'll slightly make up for the penalty you're putting in at the high end), but I still think that this is nothing more than an appeal to stupidity.

Originally by: Gartanus
So if I understand this right, we will lose our learning skills. Mine are all at 5 now. But we will be getting back the isk we spent for said skills correct? If thats the case I am a very happy pod pilot cause I am saving for my marauder. Every little bit helps and I am glad to see the learning skills go. Razz


No. You'll get the SP refunded, but the skills in your head will not be. Only skillbooks sitting in your hangar will be turned into isk.

Tyme Xandr
Gallente
State Protectorate
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:48:00 - [764]
 

Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
Continuing my line of thought.

This is a really stupid idea, CCP. Here's a better one:

Get rid of tier 1 learning skills EXCEPT LEARNING.

Give everyone the 5 points from the tier 1's.
Reduce tier 2 learning skills to a x1 or x2 train. Reimburse the difference to those who've already trained them.
Reduce the noob bonus from 100% to 50%.

Fire the idiot who came up with the existing plan, since it took me about 5 minutes to come up with a better one, for free.

That way everyone is happy.


I think removing tier two would be an easier choice, and reimbursing SP for those skills.

Just one set of skills for increasing attributes would be fine. At least it promotes thinking about the future.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:48:00 - [765]
 

Originally by: john roe
beginning eve 2010 :

I WANT IT ALL AND I WANT IT NOW!
GIVE ME! GIVE ME! GIVE ME!


fast-food generation.




Where? I wanna be the first!!! Oh, it's was a joke? Shame on you... I though it was real...

Solo Player
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:48:00 - [766]
 

Originally by: Blackhuey
Awesome. Next please remove fitting skills, and anything else that requires investment for future reward.

*headdesk*


This. A thousand times this, for irony best tells the message.

EVE is not a sport. Its rules are not there to make the game fair, or even balanced. They are there to provide a canvas for both designers to create a world and thousands of individual stories.
So new players have a disadvantage. So they have to make a hard choice (and it IS a choice, deciding between skills with a direct tangible use and those with more long-term profits - you don't HAVE to try to "win" an MMO, you know, you can just play/enjoy it!). This only serves to make the stories more interesting.

EVE is an MMO. People play to achieve, to compete, to experience, to explore, to socialize, or for a whole lot of other reasons. No matter what type, what no one likes is to lose stuff just because the designers think they should. In an MMO, you may add stuff, you may (extremely carefully) change stuff, but you must NEVER take stuff away. That just makes players mad.

Sure, most of the people in this thread do not feel negatively impacted by this loss. Some may rejoice because they have been annoyed by the learning skills. But a sizeable minority still feel disowned. If you belittle them now, you might just be part of the minority hurt by the next removal and wonder why you feel ignored by the majority.

Annoyed by learning skills. Fair enough. But find a solution that adds something, a new, better choice, maybe, and doesn't just take away what others cherish.
Thanks for reading (as if anyone'd read a wall of text on page 26ish but I was really upset and had to get this out :P)

KurnKuku
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:49:00 - [767]
 

Originally by: rashaverak
I see this change as negative. If the reason behind it is to remove the boredom of training learning skills for new players then I think that there are many alternatives to boost new player skill learning in the early part of the game.
Training the learning skills to an appropriate level is a choice that should remain open to players just as they can choose career paths, racial ships and weapons etc.
I suspect that most players trained them all to 4 earlier in the game and only went to 5 once their commitment to Eve was firmly established. Regardless I think that those players that took the trouble to max out these skills should be recognised with some form of slightly accelerated SP generation and the ability for any player to achieve this in some way other than implants should be retained.
I doubt that a huge percentage of the player base has actually maxed all these skills and I can only see this as a dumbing down.


So what you are saying is "I trained the learning skills, but despite the fact this change does not affect me, I want something back" ?

Lahnius
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:49:00 - [768]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Edited by: Tonto Auri on 25/11/2010 19:40:15
Originally by: Lahnius
...so, basically EVE is being slowly tailored for those that usually find happiness in the daily statement:

"Look Mommy, I'm shooting stuff..." Rolling Eyes

...please, if your reply is "dont be stupid", or some long drawn out blast at my n00bisheticness, then just hush 'cuz flames fall on deaf ears...

...meh...

My reply is "you're idiot". Because even stupid monkey can see that nothing that really affecting THE GAME haven't been removed or altered by this change.

Originally by: john roe
what's next?


Nothing. Ballast gone. Period. EVE remains as enjoyable as it is (minus brainless whiners, of course)



...shhhhhh it'll be ok... drink less coffee...

Lysander Kaldenn
Dead Reckoning.
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:49:00 - [769]
 

Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 25/11/2010 19:49:50
Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 25/11/2010 19:49:34
Anyone else noticed that none of the "LEARNING SKILLZ EVE MAKE GREAT" whiners can spell, or make use of the paragraph?

This is a great change. I've been playing eve since you started with 30k sp and nothing else. I ground my way through the learning skills and finally on to bigger and better things. They were a useless grind since day one.

Getting rid of them doesn't make Eve into WoW. Bad game design doesn't equal complexity. It's simply bad game design. There are plenty of badly designed games out there. If thats what you love feel free to move on to one of them.

Tyme Xandr
Gallente
State Protectorate
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:50:00 - [770]
 

Originally by: Gartanus
So if I understand this right, we will lose our learning skills. Mine are all at 5 now. But we will be getting back the isk we spent for said skills correct? If thats the case I am a very happy pod pilot cause I am saving for my marauder. Every little bit helps and I am glad to see the learning skills go. Razz


No u dont get isk back for already injected books. Just books that are still sitting in ur hangers.

Read the dev blog, it explains exactly whats happening.

Titus Phook
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:51:00 - [771]
 

In my opinion this is a cracking idea, none of my learning skills are at 5, most are at 3 or 4 but it still gives me 600k+ skill points on my main to reinvest in skills that are actually useful. The learning skills were a grind, I hated doing them as it intruded on what I really wanted to do which was blow stuff up.

To all the whiney people, giving new characters the equivalent of a full set of learning skills doesn't intrude on your game in any way, you already have the skill point advantage, bloody expensive implants, a more diverse choice of ships, career paths and weapon systems.

If anything it'll mean the newer players progress faster in the game, corp recruiters won't have to encourage new recruits to invest in learning, they will become more useful corp members in a shorter time span, everybody likes new cannon fodder, may as well be useful cannon fodder. Besides new characters in shiny ships, which they can fly earlier because they haven't sat in a station ship spinning for a month or mining in a frigate to earn the isk for the learning skills, make for more targets.

Eve has to evolve to increase the subscriber numbers or even retain new subscribers. I've encouraged a few people to play and the dirty great roadblock that was learning skills has discouraged 75% of them, I think only 1 is still an active subscriber who I buddy programmed in and gave not far of the cost of 30 days gameplay when he subscribed.

john roe
BearingPoint
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:52:00 - [772]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: john roe
beginning eve 2010 :

I WANT IT ALL AND I WANT IT NOW!
GIVE ME! GIVE ME! GIVE ME!


fast-food generation.




Where? I wanna be the first!!! Oh, it's was a joke? Shame on you... I though it was real...


it's called a sarcasm, mate.
only pointed out which way this game is heading... what it's changing into.
into fast-food game.

anyway, dont bother with that, mate.
this whole concept is way too complicated for you, apparently.

Lynx Amurie
Caldari
CRUX CORPORATE ARMADA
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:54:00 - [773]
 

WEWT

Tyme Xandr
Gallente
State Protectorate
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:54:00 - [774]
 

Originally by: john roe
Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: john roe
beginning eve 2010 :

I WANT IT ALL AND I WANT IT NOW!
GIVE ME! GIVE ME! GIVE ME!


fast-food generation.




Where? I wanna be the first!!! Oh, it's was a joke? Shame on you... I though it was real...


it's called a sarcasm, mate.
only pointed out which way this game is heading... what it's changing into.
into fast-food game.

anyway, dont bother with that, mate.
this whole concept is way too complicated for you, apparently.


Im pretty sure his reply was also sarcasm. +1 for internet sarcasm

Patri Andari
Caldari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:54:00 - [775]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 25/11/2010 19:43:16
AS A 5+ YEAR PLAYER I HAVE JUST RESUBBED FOR THIS CHANGE! **** YEAH CCP!

learning skills do not make the make easier for older players.

removing them does not make it it so newer players are somehow going to catch up with my beefy 40million sp over night.



gogo ccp!


If I had played for 5+ years and only had 40mil SP to show for it, I too would be dancing. It shows you used the time to train some fun and instantly rewarding skills and now you get free max learning to boot.

You have won eve.




john roe
BearingPoint
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:56:00 - [776]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri :

"EVE remains as enjoyable as it is"


then i want your version of this game because obviously we are playing 2 different types of eve. enjoyment in this game has ended (at least for me) around 2007.
i am here only to see how this game is gonna die.

Fennisair
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:57:00 - [777]
 

Is this the place to vote for more Dev Blogs by CCP Greyscale?
Seriously... I love his/her/its/their writing style. xD

+ gogogogo-away learning skills!

I realise that this is a big annoyance to the "veterans" who feel like they're being gipped. But really, you're getting the equivalent quantity of skill-points to redistribute. Therefore, you haven't actually wasted/lost any time really... I suppose with the caveat that if you'd had this a few years ago you'd have been further ahead in your "training plan" at an earlier time.
But that is still a hard argument to push considering that training time = skill points and you're not losing any of those.

Maybe those with maxed-out learning skills (or over a certain "age"), should get a bit of an SP bonus with their refund? But where would you make the distinction?

Lahnius
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:58:00 - [778]
 

14.95 per month ... my first month in EVE, so I'm not too awful troubled by all of this ... however, I do truly feel for those that have spent the couple months training the learning skills only to be presented with "ok the learning skills are going away, but hey here's a few changes to compensate the slap in the face, and by the way, dont be bothered with the fact that you spent weeks and roughly 30 bones for nothing ... merry christmas" Shocked

Yea, thats nice ... wait, what?

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:58:00 - [779]
 

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/devblog/2010/learning-skills-graph-1.jpg

In the graph is points out exacttly what I was trying to TELL YOU PEOPLE a YEAR AGO! right before I quit.

I'm guessing the purple one is if you train your learning skills before you lose double training time.

With the old system every point in learning was actually TWO points of attributes (double training time) And +5 implants were PLUS TEN IMPLANTS!

If you did not train learning skills before the double training end, then you would be behind by SIX MONTHS

and some people tried to say you don't have to train learning skills before the double training time, what a bunch of bull****.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:59:00 - [780]
 

Originally by: Gartanus
So if I understand this right, we will lose our learning skills. Mine are all at 5 now.

Yes.
Quote:
But we will be getting back the isk we spent for said skills correct?

No.


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