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Skythunder Alexandria
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:21:00 - [721]
 

Originally by: Jacque Cousteu
W00T the equivalent of all L5 learning skills without having to train them, then a massive reimbursement of current sp in learning...


I LOVE IT!!!!Very HappyShockedCoolLaughing


Comments such as this are just as short-sighted as the changes we are discussing. Here is why:

1) Most of us who trained the Learning tree, did so at an early age, when ISK and our investment of time were at a premium. We did not have a "main" and 3 alts to fund +5 implants to knock out the learning tree in a month and a half... we spent several weeks grinding enough ISK just to buy the damn skills, and then spent the better part of six months maxing the skills out (which I admit, I still have not taken Charisma to +10... I just can't justify the last 3 weeks it would take to get there)!

2) Now that we have "grown up", all we have left to invest those 4+mil SP into with the refunded points, are x5, x8, x12 skills. So essentially, I get 11 skills taken away, ang if I'm lucky, I might get to train 2 skills from lvl 4 to lvl 5... something that would take me a couple of months at the most, with the new attributes you will put in, plus my current set of implants.

So to dumb this thought down even further:

nOObS = rejoice!!!!!!!111

Veterans = bend over and take the big communist weenie where the sun don't shine!

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:22:00 - [722]
 

Originally by: Alexx Luther
So... wait.... i will be stuck with a max of (17+5) 23 as my highest possible attribute (w/o remappping of course) while newer players get 20x4 and 19... do they keep this attribute boost? because if they do then they can have a max of 25 (20+5) and will eventually overtake me in sp training faster then i.
No. You're not stuck — you still have your 14 distributable points, just like the new players. They just get the standard +3/+3/+3/+3/+2 distribution, whereas you keep whatever choice you've made right now.

Your max attribute before implants will be exactly the same as theirs: 27. Your minimum attribute before implants will exactly the same as theirs: 17. Your number of remappable points will be exactly the same as theirs: 14.

All that is happening to everyone is that, instead of having a minimum/base attribute value of 5, we get a new minimum/base attribute value of 5+12=17. Everyone gets this. Nothing else changes (well, apart from the learning skills going boom, of course). Remaps are exactly the same as before: you get 14 points to add onto your attribute minimums as you see fit, with no more than 10pts going into any one attribute.

Anidis
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:24:00 - [723]
 

Originally by: raukosen
Originally by: HK 47
This is a sad day. EVE is loosing something what was important. EVE was a complex game. This is the way to make it easier and easier.
Hope you guys without patience are happy now. What do you want to destroy next?
Can't wait to see it ...


Are you really that dumb? To train or not to train learning skills is an uninteresting decision that doesn't add anything to the game. Everyone who intends to keep playing the game should train them. The right thing to do when you started the game was to spin your ship for a month before you start playing the game. If that's not terrible design then I don't know what is.

EVE's complexity has NOTHING to do with learning skills and if you think it does I'm surprised you can even spell complexity.

People will complain about just about anything. "FFFFFFUUUUUU!!! They're making the game easier, now I don't have to spend my first month doing nothing. It's for noobs now!". Very Happy it's so stupid I can hardly believe it


no I am not. The first thing in EVE is to learn that you need patience for it. And train it, was getting you a faster skill speed. It was the decission of everyone to train it or not. And btw. you don't have to train it in the first month. But if you want to train faster you need it. It was a categorie. Many of you may think, that this is so useless. Did you ever trained it to lvl 5 or are you just happy that you don't have to show patience to get the same skillspeed like a lvl5 skilled player?
this was one further step to make it easier.

Capsuleer Newton
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:24:00 - [724]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Capsuleer Newton
current base is 8/8/8/8/7; we can remap 3/3/3/3/2; +12 points = you'll have 17 across the board unremappable attribute but you still have the 3/3/3/3/2 = 14 points.


Current base is 5/5/5/5/5...

that's the current unremappable base; but the toon start with 8/8/8/8/7, remember, we can only remap the base, not points from the learning skills nor points from the implant, if the base is 5/5/5/5/5 as you say, then we couldn't have been able to remap since that the unremappable base.

Dav Varan
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:25:00 - [725]
 

Originally by: eulkahn
Edited by: eulkahn on 25/11/2010 19:23:00
I've got 4.5 mil SP in learning. I don't mind this too much, will be fun to put the SP elsewhere and it leaves a level playing field from what was a pretty contraversial game mechanic.

I will say this though: I didn't enjoy the months it took to get these skills, even now, more than 6 months into the game I still have less than a couple of million SP in useful combat skills, and that was fine with me because I'd worked to gain a learning advantage over the people who decided not to make that commitment.

I understand that you can't please everyone, and that by eliminating these skills you're making a lot of people happy, and making it a more friendly game for beginners. But how about just some token of acknowledgement for the players that invested their time and patience, and it took quite a lot of patience. Not asking for much, maybe a small SP bonus for each learning skill at V, or perhaps just a certificate they can claim and display, 'Grand Professorial Wizard' or something like that? Not that I'd be able to claim that, I couldn't bear another 13 days to get that last point of charisma.


Dont worry your advantage is preserved.

Want Ore Industrial lvl 5 for max salvaging ?

Thats gonna take you 1 sec to train - others with no learning skill will have to wait.

Or if super salvaging isnt up your street then wait for then next skill required new game feature which you will be able to start imediattelly if you hold onto your sp bonus rather than squandering it.

Ja'ihra
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:25:00 - [726]
 

So, no love for the new players that just started the game and invested most(if not all) of there money in learning skills?

Tal Rann
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:26:00 - [727]
 

I resent losing the hard earnt/time spent learning skills just 'for the newbies'. Have they no fibre, no willingness to put nose to the grindstone like us oldies? I dont like WoW-letys hope EVE doesn't go more the route of instant gratification. We liked the hard way 'cos we are hard.

Alexx Luther
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:27:00 - [728]
 

Originally by: Ja'ihra
So, no love for the new players that just started the game and invested most(if not all) of there money in learning skills?


Id be one of them

KurnKuku
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:27:00 - [729]
 

Originally by: Skythunder Alexandria
Originally by: Jacque Cousteu
W00T the equivalent of all L5 learning skills without having to train them, then a massive reimbursement of current sp in learning...


I LOVE IT!!!!Very HappyShockedCoolLaughing


Comments such as this are just as short-sighted as the changes we are discussing. Here is why:

1) Most of us who trained the Learning tree, did so at an early age, when ISK and our investment of time were at a premium. We did not have a "main" and 3 alts to fund +5 implants to knock out the learning tree in a month and a half... we spent several weeks grinding enough ISK just to buy the damn skills, and then spent the better part of six months maxing the skills out (which I admit, I still have not taken Charisma to +10... I just can't justify the last 3 weeks it would take to get there)!

2) Now that we have "grown up", all we have left to invest those 4+mil SP into with the refunded points, are x5, x8, x12 skills. So essentially, I get 11 skills taken away, ang if I'm lucky, I might get to train 2 skills from lvl 4 to lvl 5... something that would take me a couple of months at the most, with the new attributes you will put in, plus my current set of implants.

So to dumb this thought down even further:

nOObS = rejoice!!!!!!!111

Veterans = bend over and take the big communist weenie where the sun don't shine!


So what you are really saying is "I had to spend time training learning skills, and even though I am not going to be affected by this change, I don't want it implemented because I want other people to have to train it, because I had to" ?

Dray
Caldari
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:28:00 - [730]
 

5 accounts, 6 characters with max/high learning skills.

With that in mind looking forward to playing with the reimbursed skill points, I do how ever find it a little worrying that it is dumbing down Eve.

As a 2003 vet I've seen a lot of changes most of them good, some not so good, but through that time I have always appreciated that Eve is a difficult game to get into for lots of reasons but mostly because it requires patience and discipline to get past the steep learning curve, something a lot of gamers don't have, also the game has to have new blood to stay healthy, this will undoubtedly help but it is a step away from what was the strength of the game. That said if the decision to remove the learning skills was mine alone I would go through with it but I would hammer home the need to keep the change limited to this and this alone, Eve will never have the subscriber base a game like WoW has, nor do I think CCP really think it ever will, it is a niche game and long may it remain so.

I'm betting new players will still quit with these changes as patience and discipline is still required, even with this boost for new players, and that will never change, so I don't think its as bad as people think, as long as it starts and ends with the removal of learning skill.

A tentative supporter of the change.

Also one players whine is another players genuine concern, some people seem to be using this as an excuse to laugh at "bitter" vets.

Me I'm just bitter regardless. Wink




Axearm Thunk'um
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:28:00 - [731]
 

Thank you!

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:28:00 - [732]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 25/11/2010 19:29:56
Edited by: Furb Killer on 25/11/2010 19:28:59
Quote:
Starting to feel like CCP need to split eve into 2 games.

EVE: Classic
EVE: WoW Edition

Stick all these dumbing down measures into the WoW Edition and leave those with at least half a brain some complexity.

I really wonder after reading this and similar reactions, how is it possibly in any way complex to press right mouse button on learning skill, train, and not login for a few weeks besides switching skills. Do you really think that is complex? Because in that case WoW might also be too complex for you.

The only thing that would be dumb is keeping learning skills. So you may have fun in a special version of eve where you do not have the SP from learning skills redistributed (so dont assign them to anything), you dont have warp to zero (so just warp to 10 always), where autorepeat does not exist, etc.

For new players this means they can faster start enjoying eve and fitting ships with reasonable fittings, for old players this means loads of SP reimbursed. The only thing sadder than people who think training a learning skill is 'complex' are those who think others should have to suffer terrible game mechanics because they did too.

Quote:
We liked the hard way 'cos we are hard.

Same for you, no one is forcing you to use those SP you get.

Quote:
So, no love for the new players that just started the game and invested most(if not all) of there money in learning skills?

Well they do get max learning skills + SP reimbursement of whatever they already trained, i would call that quite some love. It isnt as if something is taken from them.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:28:00 - [733]
 

Originally by: Capsuleer Newton
Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Capsuleer Newton
current base is 8/8/8/8/7; we can remap 3/3/3/3/2; +12 points = you'll have 17 across the board unremappable attribute but you still have the 3/3/3/3/2 = 14 points.


Current base is 5/5/5/5/5...
that's the current unremappable base; but the toon start with 8/8/8/8/7, remember, we can only remap the base, not points from the learning skills nor points from the implant, if the base is 5/5/5/5/5 as you say, then we couldn't have been able to remap since that the unremappable base.
Yes well… semantics.

By "base" he means the part that cannot be remapped. It is being increased from 5/5/5/5/5 to 17/17/17/17/17. On top of this, you have your 14 remappable points. New players simply come with those points pre-distributed as +3/+3/+3/+3/+2. The only change is that the base part (by this definition) is now 17 instead of 5.

Rupicolous
Higher Ground
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:29:00 - [734]
 



Lets start a quick tally .........

PI investments = GONE
Learning Investments = GONE

Like others have said, what next ?

Research ???

The satisfaction of having worked for something seems to be diminishing rapidly throughout the game leaving fewer and fewer arenas for vet dedication to reign.

john roe
BearingPoint
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:29:00 - [735]
 

Originally by: Phaedriel
Starting to feel like CCP need to split eve into 2 games.

EVE: Classic
EVE: WoW Edition

Stick all these dumbing down measures into the WoW Edition and leave those with at least half a brain some complexity.


i am glad that we still have a few good men onboard.
ppl with brains who like challenges.


ps

<--------- WoW is that way

Tyme Xandr
Gallente
State Protectorate
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:30:00 - [736]
 

Originally by: Dav Varan
It good to see that your making the game easier to get into for new players.

This will go a long way to making it easier for new players to get competitive sooner.

The other thing that would help with new player competitiveness imho would be to reduce Skill Pre-reqs. so that training for T2 gear ( pretty essential for most PvP ) becomes much easier.

It the pre-reqs at lvl4 and 5 that really make some trains hugelly time consuming.

By limiting Pre-reqs to lvl 3 and keeping lvl 4 and 5 for performance improvement only you make it much easier for new players to become competitve with T2 gear.



With enough complaining to make the game easier ull have ur way eventually.

Katharina B
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:30:00 - [737]
 

CCP: I Hate you for that ****.

z4e
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:31:00 - [738]
 

I LOVE GREYSCALE!

That blog was epic haha.

Im all up for waiting and seeing, would love the extra SP to get some boring skills blitzed! =)

Fuyu'no Kiri
Beauvoir-Bourdieu
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:31:00 - [739]
 

Originally by: Shaalira D'arc
Sansha Claus delivers!
Hehe, it was not until reading the devblog for the third time that I saw it didn't open with "With one hand Sansha giveth, and with the other he taketh away." ;-D

Originally by: Eve Aldeir
This removal of learning skills maybe will attract new players, but at the same time the older players are again being nerfed.
**crr** Bitter vet spotted. **click**
Quote:
We had to learn those learning skills to speed up training in the future. Now everyone gets the bonus without any learning of learning skills at all.
So where it took the older players a long time to reach certain sp levels, the new generation reaches those same levels in a much smaller amount of time.
**crr** Bitter vet confirmed and armed with fallacies. **click** ;-D

Originally by: Shandir
"Miscellaneous other cleanup tasks will be performed that are not very interesting, details available on request."

Details requested
Oh yes, I had forgotten: details definitely requested. (And you know what they say about the devil? ;-> )

Originally by: Marcus Caspius
ARRGGHH! Confused
(Another angry vet, yes. I kinda get fond of them, somehow ;-D )
Quote:
ExclamationThe point here is the COST of the LOSS of OPPERTUNITY. Exclamation
I'll just put my towel on my head until you read your own statement over and over again, until you realize the core difference there is between a cost, a (net) loss and an opportunity loss. And that there's no need to capitilize so much ;)

Originally by: amarian arch
Will remapping still be possible and if so will we be able to get a free one after this change? If i lose my 31 perception and 25 willpower im going to be mad.
Yes.
No.
Everything related to remapping remains untouched. So attribute points that have been reaffected will remain where they are now. It's all been explained half a dozen time in this thread (and in blue) already ;)

Originally by: Evanda Char
Team Yggdrasil can have cake, IMHO.
You'd really feed cake to hamsters? o_O

Originally by: Korbin Dallaz
Further I can't believe you are not going to reimburse me for skill books that I bought that you now have made useless. Screw your economist this is a one time event and not a new Modus Operandi.
Korbin Dallaz: in game since half march 2009, not a single standings line except for her tutorial agent... alt spotted ;-D

Originally by: Yeo San
but I don't like the 12 undistributable points. if I understood the plans correctly, it means that there are NO specializations anymore in eve, that the skillpoint remap is history and that we all have to live with useless attribut points.
Not quite that. Apart from the fact you don't remap sp but attribute points (lapsus linguae, maybe?), you get 12 fixed points per attribute (charisma depends on a few other factors) plus what you used to have the freedom to remap. This last part doesn't change a bit.

The major difference here is that, where you had to commit (mainly time) to specializing into each attrib and to getting a return on investment for that, now every one comes equipped with this particular type of specialization in every attribute.

It's quite the same (for new toons at least) as raising the minimum age you're allowed to quit school at.

Originally by: Rex Rotham
So, for those of you in that exact situation, set your clocks to almost 9 years from now (assuming you maintain perfect training speed for the duration of the time listed above) so that when that date hits you can begin super emo rage.
Quote:
I'm beginning to like your style.
;-D

Originally by: Darth Vanity
Maybe it's a little flying saucer with little green elves onboard or
Have mercy on me, no! I don't want to hear any more anasharia fellah or ishnu dal dièb ever ;-D

Originally by: Ong
i really cant be botherd to read though 18 pages of 'woot good job ccp'
Oh, sure, we can be bothered. Look for "blue answers", instead, plz

ka'Sin
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:32:00 - [740]
 

I think ccp should realize that its a bad idea to listen too much to the playerbase. Making the game totally convenient is a bad design decision. Its your game and you alone should design it. Period. Allowing the playerbase to partially redesign it will just make it more mainstream and the special flavour will vanish.

yours,
ka

Skythunder Alexandria
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:33:00 - [741]
 

Originally by: KurnKuku
Originally by: Skythunder Alexandria
Originally by: Jacque Cousteu
W00T the equivalent of all L5 learning skills without having to train them, then a massive reimbursement of current sp in learning...


I LOVE IT!!!!Very HappyShockedCoolLaughing


Comments such as this are just as short-sighted as the changes we are discussing. Here is why:

1) Most of us who trained the Learning tree, did so at an early age, when ISK and our investment of time were at a premium. We did not have a "main" and 3 alts to fund +5 implants to knock out the learning tree in a month and a half... we spent several weeks grinding enough ISK just to buy the damn skills, and then spent the better part of six months maxing the skills out (which I admit, I still have not taken Charisma to +10... I just can't justify the last 3 weeks it would take to get there)!

2) Now that we have "grown up", all we have left to invest those 4+mil SP into with the refunded points, are x5, x8, x12 skills. So essentially, I get 11 skills taken away, ang if I'm lucky, I might get to train 2 skills from lvl 4 to lvl 5... something that would take me a couple of months at the most, with the new attributes you will put in, plus my current set of implants.

So to dumb this thought down even further:

nOObS = rejoice!!!!!!!111

Veterans = bend over and take the big communist weenie where the sun don't shine!


So what you are really saying is "I had to spend time training learning skills, and even though I am not going to be affected by this change, I don't want it implemented because I want other people to have to train it, because I had to" ?


Yes... exactly.

If by "...not going to be affected by", you really mean, "...will only get 1/4 of my investment returned"

AND

If, by "had to", your really mean "chose to".

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:34:00 - [742]
 

Originally by: Skythunder Alexandria
Comments such as this are just as short-sighted as the changes we are discussing. Here is why:

1) Most of us who trained the Learning tree, did so at an early age, when ISK and our investment of time were at a premium. We did not have a "main" and 3 alts to fund +5 implants to knock out the learning tree in a month and a half... we spent several weeks grinding enough ISK just to buy the damn skills, and then spent the better part of six months maxing the skills out (which I admit, I still have not taken Charisma to +10... I just can't justify the last 3 weeks it would take to get there)!

2) Now that we have "grown up", all we have left to invest those 4+mil SP into with the refunded points, are x5, x8, x12 skills. So essentially, I get 11 skills taken away, ang if I'm lucky, I might get to train 2 skills from lvl 4 to lvl 5... something that would take me a couple of months at the most, with the new attributes you will put in, plus my current set of implants.

So to dumb this thought down even further:

nOObS = rejoice!!!!!!!111

Veterans = bend over and take the big communist weenie where the sun don't shine!


Ok, tell me, what you! You, I mean you, don't look around... What you loosing with this change? Time? Nope, you don't loose anything. Any trained skills? None besides learnings being removed. You loosing about 72SP/hour training speed. And get your rightfully trained SP handed back to you in one package.
Anything i'm missing?

Alexis Sapphire
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:34:00 - [743]
 

I am nearly 100% certain this has been asked, but since I'm new to the party today and we're on like page 25 now...

Any chance we can all have remap timers reset when this goes down? If not, fair play, I'm happy with removing the barrier to new players (and as someone with many a character, and between 3.4 mil and the max of 5.376 mil to distribute depending on which account I'm on...) and making vets happy alike. Not even trying to weigh in on the yes/no aspect of this.

Still, I remapped about 3 weeks ago, and I'd not have done this had I known this was coming. Screw the PLEX for remap yes/no debate, these reimbursed SP will make my plan irrelevant. The SP will go to the places it needs to go, and a better mapping would be appropriate.

Again, if not, fair enough, I'll be just fine really. But if there's any chance you all can think about this, it may be a good move to just reset everyone's timers and let us start anew under the new (and thank god) no learning skills scheme.

And yes, I believe Akita mentioned the idea of remaps for all in his thread in GD. I think it's a sound move.

Lahnius
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:34:00 - [744]
 

...so, basically EVE is being slowly tailored for those that usually find happiness in the daily statement:

"Look Mommy, I'm shooting stuff..." Rolling Eyes

...please, if your reply is "dont be stupid", or some long drawn out blast at my n00bisheticness, then just hush 'cuz flames fall on deaf ears...

...meh...

Vim
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:35:00 - [745]
 

Marvelous, Finaly it happened. I cannot be happier for the newbies I pickup to start training usefull stuff directly rather then turning them off when discussing learning skills.

Thank you ccp, I bet you this will make more people stay longer and get additionals hooked from not having to spend their first two weeks ingame training learning skills.

I <3 CCP.

Cadiz
Caldari
EXTERMINATUS.
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:35:00 - [746]
 

Hell. It's about time.

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:36:00 - [747]
 

Edited by: AkJon Ferguson on 25/11/2010 19:57:19
Edited by: AkJon Ferguson on 25/11/2010 19:37:42
K so with minimum 17/17 then remap to 27/21 then +5 implant to 32/26.

WTF CCP, you're making me train SLOWER???

New max is 2700 SP/hr.

Maybe part 2 of the 'gift' is +6/+7 implants, let me guess, only available via PLEX.

What a bunch of ****ers this CCP crowd is.

'Let's make EVE EZ mode for noobs and nerf training speed for vets and force them into a cash shop and call it a gift!'

john roe
BearingPoint
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:37:00 - [748]
 

Edited by: john roe on 25/11/2010 19:37:52

what's next?

free SPs for t2 gear?
...to make this game even more convenient for noobies?

Nefvasa Vulpayne
Amarr
Mind's Eye
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:38:00 - [749]
 

Edited by: Nefvasa Vulpayne on 25/11/2010 19:41:10
I have three characters on one account will I be getting the learning points back for all three I hope?
Can I use the points on any of the three characters?

I just had a thought however. I hope CCP does not dumb this game down like wow was dumbed down to the point a rock could play it well.



Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:39:00 - [750]
 

Edited by: Tonto Auri on 25/11/2010 19:40:15
Originally by: Lahnius
...so, basically EVE is being slowly tailored for those that usually find happiness in the daily statement:

"Look Mommy, I'm shooting stuff..." Rolling Eyes

...please, if your reply is "dont be stupid", or some long drawn out blast at my n00bisheticness, then just hush 'cuz flames fall on deaf ears...

...meh...

My reply is "you're idiot". Because even stupid monkey can see that nothing that really affecting THE GAME haven't been removed or altered by this change.

Originally by: john roe
what's next?


Nothing. Ballast gone. Period. EVE remains as enjoyable as it is (minus brainless whiners, of course)


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