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Kerdrak
GreenSwarm
Black Legion.
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:06:00 - [301]
 

Originally by: Gripen
Edited by: Gripen on 25/11/2010 13:54:27
Hmm. I just got and _AMAZING_ idea which should be very welcome be everyone who want learnings to be removed: why do we need attribute implants? They are so mandatory and boring to get isks for. They are also discourage a lot of people from joining PvP. Let's remove them and give everybody +5 free atrributes. That would be so awesome!!!111!!

Edit: could this be the second part of christmas present pretty please?


Atribute implants are in the risk/reward category that looks very good to me Wink

RedrickShoohart Joker
SoT
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:07:00 - [302]
 

Edited by: RedrickShoohart Joker on 25/11/2010 14:13:56
My old char have my love stats (+5 imps, perfect learn's)

Redrick
Int 10 27,50
per 10 27,50
char 3 19,80
will 6 23,10
mem 10 27,50
summ: 125,40

Redrick_after14
Int 10 27,00
per 10 27,00
char 3 20,00
will 6 23,00
mem 10 27,00
summ: 124,00

Ty, but I am do not need to booooost Charisma, I AM ACHURA! DO NOT TOUCH ME!

Where my 1.4 point?!

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:07:00 - [303]
 

Originally by: synesthetics
ExclamationExclamationExclamationQUESTION FOR CCP:ExclamationExclamationExclamation


Did you f! read the blog? Was it unclear?

TheBlueMonkey
Gallente
Fags R Us
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:08:00 - [304]
 

Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: TheBlueMonkey
The vocal few do not represent the opinions of the majority.
Basing decisions on that is a terrible idea.

>Implying the majority of Eve players do not hate learning skills


I'm not implying anything, I'm merely stating something, that being that there are a very vocal minority in this community and a large number of people who don't ever come to the forums.

Your own assumptions are something you need to deal with.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:08:00 - [305]
 

Edited by: Mag''s on 25/11/2010 14:09:48
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: KurnKuku
Please please don't let the CSM whinge you into reversing this great idea.


Umm, the CSM passed a proposal a few months back advocating exactly this change -- with the addition of an extra remap (because of the changes this might cause in some people's mid-term training plans) and a very slight change in how remaps work (to better match max training skills). See the proposal for the exact details -- and props to Mashie Saldana, who ran a bunch of numbers in the original proposal thread.

The vote was close (5/4). In favor of the change were myself (the proposer), Mynxee, TeaDaze, Sokratesz, and Meissa.

Ahh that makes more sense. So we will get another att allowed in the remap, making it very close to the original max speed.

Can we have it confirmed by CCP please.

DudeWhere'sMyTitan
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:09:00 - [306]
 

Edited by: DudeWhere''sMyTitan on 25/11/2010 14:09:40
Edited by: DudeWhere''sMyTitan on 25/11/2010 14:09:08
Originally by: KurnKuku
Originally by: Gaspar Destrum
i for one detest this change for 2 reasons

1) it will not get me back the 5 months of isk earning timei lost learning my learning to 5/5
2) it will be costing me 735840 SPs/year till i quit eve.
----


1)So you think everyone else should also have to suffer this burden?
2)You will be getting a pool of over 5 million SP, deduct 735840 from that each year. I doubt you will care about this when it eventually runs out in 8 years or so.


1) i don't think everyone should have to suffer though the 6months the isk is not the important part
2) had they just given everyone a full learning complement instead of simplifying the formula it would have made EVERYONE happy. (except griefers but really they don't count)

and it appreantly changed my character awesome... this is GD by the way.

Tlar Sanqua
Gallente
Gallente Defence Initiative
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:09:00 - [307]
 

Any chance of deleting some of the other non-active or useless skills, such as DED connections for example? Would be great to tidy up those irritations in the skill sheet.

I'thari
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:10:00 - [308]
 

Edited by: I''thari on 25/11/2010 14:12:25
Originally by: Rick Rothsar
Someone said they're losing 640k SP training per year under the new plan.

640k SP / 5m SP reimbursement (recovered SP previously tied up in learning skills) = 7.8 YEARS before you actually lose SP over what your current SP pace.

I certainly hope you're not butthurt over how much SP your character is going to be losing starting in September of 2018.

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Mr LaForge
I don't know why everyone is saying you'll have 5.3m Skillpoints to distribute.


Because 100% of the whiners in this thread have 11*5 in learning. (That's roughly 5,376,000 SP, which, at a loss rate of 72SP/hour means 631,152SP loss per year, or 8 years 6 months 6 days 11 hours and 40 minutes before you actually loose first SP from reduced training speed)

Originally by: Judas Scammer
ATTENTION WHINERS:

If you lose 72sp/h but you will gain 6M sp.
6 000 000/72 ? How many days would that be?



1. Those SP are for time spent while traning learning skills, not just because "it's unfair to have players train slower so we'll give them more SP". So they are what we have now, nothing more. And with speed reduced we'll actually be losing skillpoints compared to what we have now (same speed as 5/4 learnings with +5s atm).
2. EVERY player gets SP for learning skills, not just those who have maxed out learning, so it's way less than 6M "advantage".
3. 640k is almost noe more rank 3 skill trained to 5
4. Why not to "nerf" all specialization 5 skills and reimburse SP? Who needs those 2% anyway?


PS +13 instead of +12 points would make me happy. Hell, make it even 12.8 I'm fine with that.

Dhargon Klaatu
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:10:00 - [309]
 

I am very disappointed to see this change.

It removes one of the critical choices in the game, whether to be patient and train learning skills, or be impatient and get other skills sooner.

I understand that the desire is to get new players into regular training sooner, but I think perhaps starting people at say 4(tier 1)/3(tier 2) learning skills would have been a better choice. Most people eventually train at least that far, but the choice to go further should have been left to the player.

It will "dumb down" the game. Of course, that means more n00bs with less patience and player skills, and should be a great boon to can flippers and n00b gankers.

I do hope that this is not the beginning of a series of "dumbing down" steps which would destroy Eve's unique character as a patient, thinking man's game.



Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:11:00 - [310]
 

Edited by: Tonto Auri on 25/11/2010 14:11:42
Originally by: RedrickShoohart Joker
My old char have my love stats (+5 imps, perfect learn's)

Redrick
Int 10 27,50
per 10 27,50
char 3 19,80
will 6 23,10
mem 10 27,50
summ: 125,40

Redrick_after14
Int 10 27,00
per 10 27,00
char 3 20,00
will 6 23,00
mem 10 27,00
summ: 124,00
I am do not need to booooost Charisma, I AM ACHURA! DO NOT TACH ME!




Redrick fixed for ya
Int 22 27
per 22 27
char 15 20
will 18 23
mem 22 27
summ: 124

CCP Stillman

Posted - 2010.11.25 14:11:00 - [311]
 

Originally by: Mikokoel
Will the SP of partially learned Learning Skills also be refunded?
I know partially learning isn't any useful, but I just want to know...


Absolutely. Partially trained skills will be reimbursed in full, including the partially trained SP.

leaderp
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:12:00 - [312]
 

Very impressed. A very decent change - with minimal negative impacts.
Well done CCP.

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2010.11.25 14:12:00 - [313]
 

Originally by: CCP Navigator
Originally by: Mikokoel
Will the SP of partially learned Learning Skills also be refunded?
I know partially learning isn't any useful, but I just want to know...


As far as I am aware, all skill points in the learning group will be reimbursed for you to spend elsewhere. This applies to fully trained and partially trained skills.

I will double check this and update you if I am wrong.


Confirming this. This is what "including all the fiddly edge cases" in the blog means. Trained skills, partially trained skills, skills in training, skills halfway to level 1 etc should all be covered.

Originally by: Breaker77
Just to clarify. The SP reimbursement will happen for inactive accounts as well and the SP will still be there if the account is reactivated in the future?




Yup.

JcJet
Caldari
Pretenders Inc
W-Space
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:13:00 - [314]
 

"Your choice WILL make a difference"? ©Butterfly Effect Trailer...
Looks like our choises really makes more and more difference in game :)

Terrorform
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:14:00 - [315]
 

Ah, I think I see where you are going with this. So, re-maps have never always been around? And introducing them meant that you could increase training speeds of certain skills, while slowing other etc, so made long term training plans more rewarding.

I'm guessing that before re-maps, training was slower than they will be after this update, even for long term players who have maxed their learning etc.

Oh well, I'm just sympathetic to long term players, even though I myself haven't been playing this game for very long.

I don't see any harm with the below suggestion though. Who wouldn't want a few extra base points, and as pointed out, it won't make any massive difference in training speeds, but keeps players happy who have invested huge time in maxing their training skills.

The update hasn't been done yet, so CCP have the opportunity to iron their plans out before finalising them.

I like what they are doing, but base 20/20/20/20/19 plus 2 floating skills points would keep eveyone happy. Smile

Meh, you could argue about details until the cows come home.

I'm happy regardless, and have already decided where I will allocate my new sps. Thanks CCP

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Terrorform
Originally by: ForgePriceRunner
Today I have 15 base points + 10 in skills + 5 from implants times 1.1 from the skill "Learning".
That equals to 33 points of Perception.
With the new system it'll be 15 base points + 12 + 5 from implants, equals 32.

Same goes for Willpower old was 26.4 new will be 26.

This way you effectively have cut my max training ability from 2,772 SP/hour to 2,700 SP/hour.

Why not just add 13 base points instead of 12 and that way keep everyonehappy ?
Or as someone else mentioned stick to 12 and grant an extra 2 points to be added as the player pleases

Its not like that those extra base points for each attribute is gonna make the player base insta train all the skills.
But with this change you'll make it take even longer to train the skills you want.


I second this. Smile

Out of curiosity, what was the highest speed you could skill at before the attribute remaps?



CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2010.11.25 14:14:00 - [316]
 

Originally by: Othran
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
On the flipside, I'm guessing you feel somewhat cheated out of the money, because if you'd known this earlier, you would have the same advantages in a month's time without having spent the money for it. That does kinda suck, and we're sorry that's happened to a few people.


On the basis that the change is being made to encourage new players then I think you could come up with something a bit more positive than that.

When I restarted Eve (played 2003-2005) it still took me 3 weeks of missioning to raise the required amount for all advanced implants while buying ships etc. This was before tutorial/epic arc stuff but even so I was a returning player who knew most of the basics.

The people that you're "sorry that's happened to" are the people least well equipped to cope in isk terms. They are also your potential future subscribers.

Go think again about this and come up with a plan to make these "few people" happy. Its a one-off and I'm sure you can identify accounts that aren't buddied/power-of-two etc.

Really you need to do this.


Again, I take the point that the ISK is most significant to newer players, but if they've already spent the money then they're already coping. It would be better for them to get it back, sure, but they're not in a worse position after the change. That's where we're coming from here - nobody is worse off in absolute terms.

XavierVE
Reasonable People
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:14:00 - [317]
 

AWESOME.

Running a training corp that brings in new people and tries to teach them the game correctly is frustrating because you always have new people who like the game go "Hey wait, why are these skills taking so long now?" and you have to remind them of the 100% bonus. They get frustrated and sometimes leave.

I don't have to deal with this anymore. AWESOME.

I don't have to tell new people to waste a month of playtime learning skills to they can start learning skills. Holy snikey, will that help keep new people into the game. Holy snikey x 10,000.

BEST CHANGE EVER. Thank you so very much! We were considering stopping taking mostly newer players due to these frustrations, but now it's still completely viable. So happy!

Killerhound
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:15:00 - [318]
 

I love those changes and in general the path CCP has engaged since automn.


Those changes makes it much more "noobie-friendly" and gives the chance for starting chars to start skilling what they like instead of having to skill 2 months because everybody says "Learnings first".

I, myself, am already doing the calculus with the additional SP's to redistribute which is a great thing. Everybody happy this way :)

Mukuro Gravedigger
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:15:00 - [319]
 

Since I will have a chunk of skill points to distribute, will I be able to choose the amount of skill points per skill or will it automatically fulfill the skill to the next level? As an example, I need two million skill points to reach the next level. Can I take one million from my pool to set into that skill or will it automatically take two million? I would like to evenly spread the points in the amounts of my choosing instead of having them get dumped into chunks in a limited number of skills.

Thanks in advance.

Gripen
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:16:00 - [320]
 

Originally by: Kerdrak
Originally by: Gripen
Edited by: Gripen on 25/11/2010 13:54:27
Hmm. I just got and _AMAZING_ idea which should be very welcome be everyone who want learnings to be removed: why do we need attribute implants? They are so mandatory and boring to get isks for. They are also discourage a lot of people from joining PvP. Let's remove them and give everybody +5 free atrributes. That would be so awesome!!!111!!

Edit: could this be the second part of christmas present pretty please?


Atribute implants are in the risk/reward category that looks very good to me Wink


What risk are you talking about? Is there non-stupid way to be podded in empire? Haven't you heard that 86.51% of players reside in empire?

Digital Emperor
Cryptonym Sleepers
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:16:00 - [321]
 

Edited by: Digital Emperor on 25/11/2010 14:19:07









as far as i understand from this, you only reimburse the SP put into learning, What about the time spend on learning ? i mean, this timeframe used on learning skills could be used for something else, yet it havent since it was put into learning. But you only reimburse the SP in learning.

Have you even thought about that the correct thing would be x amount of SP take xxx amount of time, lets say 1 mil sp in learning. You give back 1 mil points. To be fair, that 1 mil could be placed in something else in that time, and should IMO be reimbursed too. and not only the SP in learning, ect. 1 mil sp in learning, should give you 2 mil sp to contribute in something else. since its lost training time.

What you guys are doing right now, is to just remove 1 month + gamining time, that people payed for, without giving nothing back really.









Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:16:00 - [322]
 

Hmmm. Soooooooooooo how will I redistribute those 5 million skillpoints?! Decisions, decisions... Cool

RedrickShoohart Joker
SoT
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:17:00 - [323]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Edited by: Tonto Auri on 25/11/2010 14:11:42
Originally by: RedrickShoohart Joker
My old char have my love stats (+5 imps, perfect learn's)

Redrick
Int 10 27,50
per 10 27,50
char 3 19,80
will 6 23,10
mem 10 27,50
summ: 125,40

Redrick_after14
Int 10 27,00
per 10 27,00
char 3 20,00
will 6 23,00
mem 10 27,00
summ: 124,00
I am do not need to booooost Charisma, I AM ACHURA! DO NOT TACH ME!




Redrick fixed for ya
Int 22 27
per 22 27
char 15 20
will 18 23
mem 22 27
summ: 124


(base_attribute+10 from learn+5 from imps)*1.1
noob

Fuyu'no Kiri
Beauvoir-Bourdieu
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:17:00 - [324]
 

Only one point in this announcement doesn't make me happy: the fact that it's been disclosed after I spent half a night arguing why this or that way to implement this skills retirement weren't up to the stake ;-D

Apart from that, eventually, it seems they didn't follow CCP Soundwave's of getting drunk as hell and then pick a solution at random ;)

I just wish you had filmed Doc EyjoG when you told him about the 16 trillion isk triffle thingy ^^


Originally by: Corbeau Lenoir
CCP, why are you doing this? Confused Firstly you removed attribute diversity for bloodlines, now learning skills. Do you realize, that they added depth to the game? Now everybody will be the same? What' the point? This game is getting too casual...Evil or Very Mad

If I got it correctly, bloodline-determined starting attributes was removed because their was a clear bias towards some empires/bloodlines over others.

Regarding learning skills, they don't (didn't, hehe ;-> ) add depth, they add a layer. "Layer" as in "the more layers you have to peel off of an onion, the more you get to cry" ;)


Originally by: Rian O'Shea
I have all 5 learning skills. How the F can I now feel superior over other people CCP!

You'll definetely feel superior from day 0 as, instead of having to train 5 months to break even for the learning of each lvl5 in a learning skill (don't remember if that was for base or advanced, but you get the point), you'll get both the speed bonus of having had them maxed out and get back the SP to reinvest anywhere else just by snapping your fingers ;)


Originally by: Superform
also we will we get a remap? since i mapped for my learning skills.. now i dont need them any more...

Errrm... if you trained "this" and "that" learning skills, it's because you wanted to train stuff that goes with "this" and "that" attribute, didn't you? So if you remapped towards those "this" and "that" attribute, nothing is lost.

Pray tell me you didn't remap toward I and M to leverage base learnings in P and W? For that would be, imo, very unwise.

Otoh, if you did just that, it implies you didn't have those base skills to lvl4, and so were more or less a newcomer to the mechanics of molding your attributes. And so, chances are high that you still have one of your 2 initial "free" remaps available.

Should you have gone beyond that, you're gonna learn the hard way about the "butterfly effect" ;-P


Originally by: CCP Greyscale
On the flipside, I'm guessing you feel somewhat cheated out of the money, because if you'd known this earlier, you would have the same advantages in a month's time without having spent the money for it. That does kinda suck, and we're sorry that's happened to a few people.

Having joined New Eden a couple months ago, having spent those circa 20M isk too, I guess I could count myself amongst the grieved people too. Well I don't.

The fact is, by december 14, I'll get a 1.6M SP buffer to snap instantly into whatever skills I like. Time and money spent developping this "buffer" is more than compensated for by having had the time to study what skills would be more beneficial to me.

In other words: I somehow spent my isk in exchange for time to collect intell.


To CCP and CSM: bravo ;)

Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:17:00 - [325]
 

Originally by: Akita T
20/20/20/20/19 = BAD !!!
20/20/20/20/20 = GOOD !

Rabble rabble OCD rabble !



Oh, this! so this. my OCD sense is tingling. :)

Einear Lightfingers
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:18:00 - [326]
 

WOW! Way to screw the pooch. Anyone remember Star Wars Galaxies when they converted all the potential characters had to 8 simple templates? This is the same idea. Dumb the game down to keep the noob kid base happy at the expense of the players who worked to understand the game. Like a lot of people I spent the 3 months training those extra skills to 5 to have the advantage over my pirate friends who spent the time grinding weapon skills and ****d me every time I stepped in the wrong system. Now those same people want the same advantage of the person who spent the time to train it and still keep their pew pew.

Thank you CCP for becoming more like Star Wars Galaxies daily. First with the patch for more broken crap and now with taking one of the better parts of the games ability to create individuals away so PVPer can have their guns and all the skills they want to. I'll wait until next year see how this all works out, but this will more than likely be the end of my 4 year run in EVE.

Anubus53
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:18:00 - [327]
 

Not sure if this has been covered in the 11 pages of comments yet but, what will happen to the remapping system and our current remaps? I've got 29perc/25will atm (+4's), will those remain the same or how will they it change?Question

Psihius
Caldari
Anarchist Dawn
U N K N O W N
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:18:00 - [328]
 

Edited by: Psihius on 25/11/2010 14:19:03
I have one question witch mostly matters - what is the minimum remapping atribute value? As I remember the minimum now is 5, so 5 + 12 = 17? Am I right?

Dav Varan
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:19:00 - [329]
 

+1

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:19:00 - [330]
 

Edited by: Mag''s on 25/11/2010 14:20:27

Can someone from CCP confirm that this proposal, which ups the re-mappable attributes from 15 to 16, is indeed the one you will impliment.

Meaning that the max training speed will be 2760 with +5 imps.


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