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Hex'Caliber
Gallente
Massively Mob
Posted - 2010.11.23 12:12:00 - [241]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Ayla Nori
plex for remaps... plex for isk for implants... the difference is.. ?

remaps was a good idea.




One of them pretty much destroys the concept of having character attributes, the other doesn't.

Unlike heading to the character bazaar and buying a pre made with 70 -80 million sp, with instant access to everything their sp allows, yeah, I can see how you would believe this a rational argument, muppet.

Frozen T'amber
Posted - 2010.11.23 12:18:00 - [242]
 

Originally by: ChrisIsherwood
It was a disappointing but I suppose inevitable decision.

Currently, with their parent's credit card someone can buy a character with 60 million SP and provided they never undock in a T3, there is nothing that the combined playerbase can do to reduce that by a single SP. It is a significant and permanent in-game advantage. In fact, it is a 60,000,000 SP advantage over a peer who starts a character the traditional way. CCP's MT hymen was gone a long time ago. However, as illogical as it is, a number of the customers did object to the remap, so dropping it was probably the right decision.

However, when CCP stockholders and executives have to allocate development dollars between, DUST, DARKNESS, and EVE, then obviously the EVE customers' reaction to this will be one more reason to invest in the other IP rather than the EVE cash cow.




Someone trained those SP, more sp wasn't created from no where.
This is a important distinction aswell as everyone having equal oppurtunities to buy characters until plex.


Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury
Posted - 2010.11.23 12:19:00 - [243]
 

Edited by: Joss56 on 23/11/2010 12:24:34
Originally by: Hex'Caliber
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Ayla Nori
plex for remaps... plex for isk for implants... the difference is.. ?

remaps was a good idea.




One of them pretty much destroys the concept of having character attributes, the other doesn't.

Unlike heading to the character bazaar and buying a pre made with 70 -80 million sp, with instant access to everything their sp allows, yeah, I can see how you would believe this a rational argument, muppet.


Right!

Quote:
Someone trained those SP, more sp wasn't created from no where.
This is a important distinction aswell as everyone having equal oppurtunities to buy characters until plex.


Who cares? - The fact is that you INSTA use one char with millions of SP and all you have to do is buy plexes with your real MONEY (dollars/euros etc etc etc)

Got it? Arrow [-]

Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury
Posted - 2010.11.23 12:34:00 - [244]
 

Originally by: Trancefo Delcroix
Thumbs up for CSM's efforts on the matter and
thumbs up for CCP for listening to the community!

There should indeed be limits to what money can buy.
For me, those limits are skillpoints.
(or neural remapping, which is basically the same)

I really hope CCP manages to stabilize the markets through vanity.
I for one am interested in the ideas they just presented.


They also should not aloud char sels more than 500 000isk so that you guys dont have to buy PLEX with real MONEY to sell them in game for ISKIES and so buy a 30/90M whatever sp char.

SO?




Chesty McJubblies
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.11.23 12:42:00 - [245]
 

This thread is teh funneh.

Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury
Posted - 2010.11.23 12:48:00 - [246]
 

Originally by: Chesty McJubblies
This thread is teh funneh.


Some candys? Laughing

Not T'amber
Posted - 2010.11.23 12:57:00 - [247]
 

Edited by: Not T''amber on 23/11/2010 12:59:44
Ninja Edit
Originally by: Ayla Nori
plex for remaps... plex for isk for implants... the difference is.. ?

remaps was a good idea.




You lose implants when you lose your pod, is one.

What is getting confused here is that while there are alot of people against Plex for Remaps, that doesn't mean they are necessarily against more remaps themselves - nor does it mean that everyone who is against it is a angry vet who cares about how many sp new players have.

There are other ways to increase learning/ training time that have a much lower potential to damage to the community. One of these is hopeully coming soon and everyone will be happy with it - patience is your friend.


Tiger's Spirit
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.23 12:59:00 - [248]
 

Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 23/11/2010 13:06:57
CSM is sux , they just seeing their old character advantages, but never interesting them what about the new and fresh characters.

And one other thing, most of CSM members is a result of a 0,0 alliance or their high sec alt corp obligatory vote.
Just check the alliance mandatory evemails dear CCP.
So, CSM just a 0.0 sphere of interest, not interested in the all Eve community.

Not T'amber
Posted - 2010.11.23 13:01:00 - [249]
 

Originally by: Joss56
Originally by: Chesty McJubblies
This thread is teh funneh.


Some candys? Laughing


Lols heres your candy Chesty:

Originally by: Tiger's Spirit
CSM is sux , they just seeing their old character advantages, but never interesting them what about the new and fresh character.


Classic.

Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.23 13:24:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: Royce Thalorien

2. Vanity items allow those with the funds to donate more to those who give us the game without giving an unfair advantage to anyone.


What part made you think this is a donation?

Do you donate to your local store when you go buy bread and milk? Do you donate your money to the school yard bully when he picks on you cause your the smallest kid on the block?


There seem to be a lot of players out there who think all vanity players are overwhelmed with money and just waiting for a coin slot to shove it all in. We aren't. If I'm gonna pay for vanity items I wanna get my moneys worth not a 5 minute paint job while the rest of my money goest to some other players. If the vanity store is some crappy, rushed, half built thing (in eve? never /sarcasm) I won't be putting any money into it and will be pushing me further into leaving eve.

De'Vadder
Minmatar
Dissonance Corp
BLACK-MARK
Posted - 2010.11.23 13:45:00 - [251]
 

IN BEFORE CHRIBBA!!!11!!1eleven
Srsly, is he ill? im scared for Chribba now.

Not that anyone would read up to here, but to all you pro plex for remaps people: Ever wondered why its not Isk for remap? That is not the same, allthough i understand many will not grasp the difference. I believe there would be a lot more people accepting that. But CCP doesnt want it. They dont want it because the whole point of tis is to increase demand for Plex (which is currently at 1 per month per account). Obviously that would mean more money for CCP, what is a good thing, but it would also make Plex more expensive ingame. And that makes buying ISK for cash cheaper and i mean a lot cheaper. That is bad, if you cant figure out why, go play Atlantica and try to buy you a horse or decoration or wings without paying real money.

Srsly, thing about it, if for you ISK for remap and Plex for remap sound exactly the same, than strife for ISK for remap and dont whine about no Plex for remap.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.11.23 14:05:00 - [252]
 

Originally by: De'Vadder
IN BEFORE CHRIBBA!!!11!!1eleven
Srsly, is he ill? im scared for Chribba now.
*snip*

He's probably fine..
I found he's taking great care by what he's posting on the forums and when/where he does it, if the OP touches controversial topics.
He might even have posted some thoughts of his own under an unknown char here in cognito. Wink

PS: no it's not me, I can assure you of that.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2010.11.23 14:23:00 - [253]
 

Originally by: Tres Farmer

Originally by: Adunh Slavy

I for one will be walking in stations naked or in the ugliest freebie clothes I can find.


Just purchase some PLEX via ISK and then buy the paintjob?!
Where is the problem..?



There is no problem, and vanity is a two edged sword. I made the comment to expose a truth.

CCP wants Ambulation to look good, to be ground breaking, to attract customers and a showcase for Carbon and what is to come with WoD. We can then assume that the free clothes will look pretty good, they won't look like crap.

It will cost them more to make everyone look like crap, to encourage vanity, than it will to make everyone look good. Got it?

As for a paint job, same rule applies. Besides, I've gone five years with out a personalized paint job on my ship, I think I can go another five.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.23 14:30:00 - [254]
 

Originally by: Hex'Caliber
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Ayla Nori
plex for remaps... plex for isk for implants... the difference is.. ?

remaps was a good idea.




One of them pretty much destroys the concept of having character attributes, the other doesn't.

Unlike heading to the character bazaar and buying a pre made with 70 -80 million sp, with instant access to everything their sp allows, yeah, I can see how you would believe this a rational argument, muppet.


What does any of this have to do with buying characters for ISK?

1) Buying a character for ISK doesn't give you the exact skillpoint distribution that you'd like.

2) Buying a character for ISK might not give you the exact attribute distribution that you'd like.

3) Buying a character for ISK doesn't permanently maximise that character's training speed.

4) I've made it clear in the past that I don't think that PLEX for ISK is a terribly good idea either - I happen to think that being able to buy an in-game advantage for RL cash isn't wonderful for the game.

Now to clarify my original point: limitless respecs essentially means that all stats are maxed out for all training, thus making all attributes equivalent for anyone with enough ISK or RL cash. This means that the training speed becomes constant, rendering attributes obsolete.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2010.11.23 14:43:00 - [255]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Hang on a moment...

Does having PLEX for vanity items imply that we won't be able to design our own clothing?


I doubt CCP would allow player made clothing and such things. They've always wanted to promote a look and feel to Eve, Ambulation will be no different. I doubt CCP wants youtube vids of people walking around jita 4-4 wearing giant pink ***** hats.

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.11.23 14:44:00 - [256]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Hang on a moment...

Does having PLEX for vanity items imply that we won't be able to design our own clothing?


I doubt CCP would allow player made clothing and such things. They've always wanted to promote a look and feel to Eve, Ambulation will be no different. I doubt CCP wants youtube vids of people walking around jita 4-4 wearing giant pink ***** hats.


At various points in the past, cloth- and hair-style-designers were named as possible occupations for Incarna.

Doppleganger
Minmatar
Band of Builders Inc.
Sodalitas XX
Posted - 2010.11.23 14:59:00 - [257]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake

Now to clarify my original point: limitless respecs essentially means that all stats are maxed out for all training, thus making all attributes equivalent for anyone with enough ISK or RL cash. This means that the training speed becomes constant, rendering attributes obsolete.


This....

I was not a fan of the original idea of remaps in the 1st place. Every decision you make in game has consequences, good or bad and that should have applied to how you setup your character in the 1st place.

Ok then when remaps came in I thought, ok its not bad to give someone a second or third chance to fix an attribute mistake they made in the beginning. Constant remapping is just bad idea, it makes it so you dont have to live with your choices. Make a mistake just remap, remap and remap again.

When you start to remap so much your attribs start to have little meaning cause whenever you want to train a different area you just remap to max those attribs. If that is the case they should just remove all attribs altogether and just make all skills train at the same speed and only the lvl of the skill would change the training time.

I 1st joined the game cause everything you did had consequences including one of the most important parts and thats how you setup your char in the 1st place and knowing you had to live with that choice.

Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
Posted - 2010.11.23 15:22:00 - [258]
 

lets play connect the dots:

this:
Originally by: Typhado3
For example say you make a custom tempest skin for $5 and sell 30,000 copies of it are we gonna see most of that money go back towards the vanity side of eve? Or is all gonna be funneled away in the fight against lag or some other non vanity related project.


and this:
Originally by: ChrisIsherwood
However, when CCP stockholders and executives have to allocate development dollars between, DUST, DARKNESS, and EVE....


i have a sneaking suspicion that our EVE vanity dollars are not going to be used to improve our game. they probably see this as a no-brainer to help support the development of their vampire LARP simulator. Rolling Eyes



Dharh
Gallente
Ace Adventure Corp
Posted - 2010.11.23 15:34:00 - [259]
 

Wow. Just Wow at people in this thread. You people sure don't know the costs of developing stuff. If you think CCP can afford putting lots of clothing options for _subscriptions_, you have another thing coming. Almost every MMO is heading towards microtransactions for a reason, they provide the money to add all those vanity items and also pay for what, increasingly, the subscriptions don't which is the actual game. Games without microtransactions will NOT get extra stuffs. No extra cloths, no ship skins, no extra furniture. Nothing. You only ever get the most basic amount of stuff that was put into the game during the development of the feature in the first place.

Dmoney3788
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.11.23 15:37:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Dmoney3788
Oh look a whiny old vet.

For the record you wouldn't buy titans with GTC, you would buy plex, and then sell the plex on the market for isk, and then use that isk to buy the titan. Slight detail worth noting. Anyway, as you seem to be whining mostly about "effort" for some unknown reason, why is that? Why does effort suddenly matter in a game that you don't even have to play to advance in skills?

I mean, if someone wants to blow their money on a remap, then go for it. A remap doesn't make you an instant pr0. Plex for remap is not plex for SP. Plex for remap is plex for greater SP per unit of time. The key being time. All a plex for remap does is allow someone to maximize their skill training path on intervals that are less than a year. Considering the average person plays eve for what, around a year? This at least gives them the option to not have to commit to a specific skill path for a whole year. Lets face it, in terms of the video game realm, making a yearly commitment is a hell of a long time, and I'd be willing to bet that there would be more players in eve if they didn't have to make a yearly commitment.

"HURF BLURF, back in my day we didn't have remaps" I really don't give a damn. New features have been added to eve over time which take on a life of their own. Remapping is one of these. Also I saw your "cash cow" comment. Cute. Just a fyi, there's no difference between "customer" and "cash cow", only the illusion that you are a customer.

Damn you bitter vets, you just made me agree with a Goon.

If its any consolation I've only been a goon for a few daysugh

Also a quote cuz all the whiny vets seemed to ignore me...

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2010.11.23 15:59:00 - [261]
 

Originally by: Dharh
Wow. Just Wow at people in this thread. You people sure don't know the costs of developing stuff. If you think CCP can afford putting lots of clothing options for _subscriptions_, you have another thing coming. Almost every MMO is heading towards microtransactions for a reason, they provide the money to add all those vanity items and also pay for what, increasingly, the subscriptions don't which is the actual game. Games without microtransactions will NOT get extra stuffs. No extra cloths, no ship skins, no extra furniture. Nothing. You only ever get the most basic amount of stuff that was put into the game during the development of the feature in the first place.


Yeah and CCP are developing EVE out of the kindness of their hearts. MTs are about revenue - growing profit margins. Your MTs aren't paying for 'new stuff' to be made, your being sold buddy if you think that.

C.

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.11.23 16:04:00 - [262]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 23/11/2010 16:06:12
Originally by: Dmoney3788
Also a quote cuz all the whiny vets seemed to ignore me...


They simply ignore you, because your whole argument is completely hollow and pointless. Most of your so called "whiney vets" couldn't care less if there were unlimited remaps available, because they would just profite as much from them as anyone else in this game (if not even more).

Master Gotama
Posted - 2010.11.23 16:07:00 - [263]
 

Originally by: Dharh
Wow. Just Wow at people in this thread. You people sure don't know the costs of developing stuff. If you think CCP can afford putting lots of clothing options for _subscriptions_, you have another thing coming. Almost every MMO is heading towards microtransactions for a reason, they provide the money to add all those vanity items and also pay for what, increasingly, the subscriptions don't which is the actual game. Games without microtransactions will NOT get extra stuffs. No extra cloths, no ship skins, no extra furniture. Nothing. You only ever get the most basic amount of stuff that was put into the game during the development of the feature in the first place.

So EVE has operated for 7 years on a subscription basis alone (with a growing subscriber base, mind you), and now they need more money to implement/develop hairstyles and paintjobs?? There are plenty of ways they could cut costs or increase revenue without going the MT route. MT offers an additional source of revenue (which is unpredictable at best), but I would be amazed if they were relying on this as a means to support ongoing operations and development of their premier product; EVE Online. The idea that “games without ME will not get extra stuffs” is silly and smacks of naivety. The game has been getting extra stuffs for 7 years, why the change now?

Dmoney3788
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.11.23 16:10:00 - [264]
 

Originally by: Ebisu Kami
Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 23/11/2010 16:06:12
Originally by: Dmoney3788
Also a quote cuz all the whiny vets seemed to ignore me...


They simply ignore you, because your whole argument is completely hollow and pointless. Most of your so called "whiney vets" couldn't care less if there were unlimited remaps available, because they would just profite as much from them as anyone else in this game (if not even more).

Ok, then lets get on with plex for remap Laughing

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.11.23 16:13:00 - [265]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 23/11/2010 16:16:20
Originally by: Dmoney3788
Ok, then lets get on with plex for remap Laughing


Congrats for not having the slightest clue on what this is about.
But yeah, I should have seen this even more pointless trolling coming... Don't discuss with idiots, they'll drag you down to their level and then beat you with their experience...

Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
Posted - 2010.11.23 16:19:00 - [266]
 

Originally by: Ebisu Kami
Most of your so called "whiney vets" couldn't care less if there were unlimited remaps available, because they would just profite as much from them as anyone else in this game (if not even more).


This.

i would venture to guess that the "whiney vets" stood the most to gain from this. do you really think a 50-70M sp vet is going to care about some newb getting a little better training times because they can remap by buying plexes? the real benefit would be for those of us sitting on billions of isk that could remap whenever we wanted, which would totally invalidate the concept of character attributes for those with the means. imho, the newbs were the one's gettin screwed in this deal. i would bet there are less of them with the desire to buy a crap ton of plexes than there are whiney vets sitting on piles of isk with nothing better to use it on.

Dharh
Gallente
Ace Adventure Corp
Posted - 2010.11.23 16:21:00 - [267]
 

Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: Dharh
Wow. Just Wow at people in this thread. You people sure don't know the costs of developing stuff. If you think CCP can afford putting lots of clothing options for _subscriptions_, you have another thing coming. Almost every MMO is heading towards microtransactions for a reason, they provide the money to add all those vanity items and also pay for what, increasingly, the subscriptions don't which is the actual game. Games without microtransactions will NOT get extra stuffs. No extra cloths, no ship skins, no extra furniture. Nothing. You only ever get the most basic amount of stuff that was put into the game during the development of the feature in the first place.


Yeah and CCP are developing EVE out of the kindness of their hearts. MTs are about revenue - growing profit margins. Your MTs aren't paying for 'new stuff' to be made, your being sold buddy if you think that.

C.



Of _course_ they are about growing profit margins. Subscriptions in MMOs work on the increasing subscription model. If you bring in more people today than you had yesterday then subscriptions work and cover the costs of running the MMO plus pay developers to maintain and add new stuff to the code. If you aren't increasing the number of subscriptions (which, as far as I know EVE subscriptions are currently stagnant or decreasing) then subscriptions DO NOT WORK well. The crazy number of developers CCP has working on EVE have to be paid somehow.

Keeping the vets happy only does one thing, keeps them subscribing with the caveat that no matter what CCP does, game burnout always wins. Merely maintaining subscription numbers, via keeping vets happy, is a losing proposition.

MTs by their very nature pay for new stuff to be made because you generally can't have microtransactions without something _new_ that can't be gotten any other way. PLEX works because the 'new' thing is a subscription, which has to bought, somehow, with cash anyway. Being able to buy a vexor for cash would not be very profitable, being able to buy a different coat of paint for a vexor could be very profitable. Adding a game feature that allows people to skin/paint their ships for ISK would not be profitable at all, it merely maintains sub numbers, which again probably wouldn't pay enough for the costs of paying a new developer to make the feature in the first place.

Dmoney3788
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.11.23 16:23:00 - [268]
 

Edited by: Dmoney3788 on 23/11/2010 16:24:36
Originally by: Ebisu Kami
Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 23/11/2010 16:16:20
Originally by: Dmoney3788
Ok, then lets get on with plex for remap Laughing


Congrats for not having the slightest clue on what this is about.
But yeah, I should have seen this even more pointless trolling coming... Don't discuss with idiots, they'll drag you down to their level and then beat you with their experience...

Please, fill me in oh enlightened one. Oh and if you want to see a pointless argument take a look at one of the many "OMG DIS WILL MAKE EVE BE LIKE WOW. I DONT LIKE WOW THEREFORE THIS IS BAD."

Also if my "Goonswarm Federation" alliance is intimidating you, I could easily continue this argument with a noob corp alt if that makes you feel better.

Dharh
Gallente
Ace Adventure Corp
Posted - 2010.11.23 16:33:00 - [269]
 

Originally by: Master Gotama
Originally by: Dharh
Wow. Just Wow at people in this thread. You people sure don't know the costs of developing stuff. If you think CCP can afford putting lots of clothing options for _subscriptions_, you have another thing coming. Almost every MMO is heading towards microtransactions for a reason, they provide the money to add all those vanity items and also pay for what, increasingly, the subscriptions don't which is the actual game. Games without microtransactions will NOT get extra stuffs. No extra cloths, no ship skins, no extra furniture. Nothing. You only ever get the most basic amount of stuff that was put into the game during the development of the feature in the first place.

So EVE has operated for 7 years on a subscription basis alone (with a growing subscriber base, mind you), and now they need more money to implement/develop hairstyles and paintjobs?? There are plenty of ways they could cut costs or increase revenue without going the MT route. MT offers an additional source of revenue (which is unpredictable at best), but I would be amazed if they were relying on this as a means to support ongoing operations and development of their premier product; EVE Online. The idea that “games without ME will not get extra stuffs” is silly and smacks of naivety. The game has been getting extra stuffs for 7 years, why the change now?



The key to what you said is that they've been operating for 7 years with an increasing sub base. Guess where EVE subs are right now? If you guessed increasing subs, you are wrong. CCP has alot of developers for EVE, you know, for all those features they've been adding to the game over the years. When those new features are no longer bringing in new subs, other avenues of revenues need to be sought out, at the very least, to keep paying developers to add new features to keep vets happy.

CCP has a few options. MT's being one of them. Increasing sub price being another. Changing from a free xpac model to a paid xpac model. Merely doing what they've always been doing is probably not going to work, especially if they've reached the dreaded plateau of subscribers.

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.11.23 16:39:00 - [270]
 

Originally by: Dmoney3788
Please, fill me in oh enlightened one. Oh and if you want to see a pointless argument take a look at one of the many "OMG DIS WILL MAKE EVE BE LIKE WOW. I DONT LIKE WOW THEREFORE THIS IS BAD."


I haven't seen this arguement in a while and I am pretty sure that noone with a clue, who fought against PLEX for ISK or Microtransactions as a whole, used this arguement.
The real arguements are vast and have been laid out time and again. Just check EVE-O-forums, speak with with the CSM-members or have a look at SHC. I'm not getting paid enough for doing the same exercise time and again and it's really becoming tiresome. However it should spark your interest that, as it seems, the whole CSM is more or less united in their cause on this and that CCP obviously agreed with their arguements.

Originally by: Dmoney3788
Also if my "Goonswarm Federation" alliance is intimidating you, I could easily continue this argument with a noob corp alt if that makes you feel better.


Is that just a random and completely baseless assumption or a subtle threat? If the former: Once more a completely useless arguement. If the later: Well played, but I don't really care.


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