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Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.22 20:45:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: CCP Masterplan
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
OTOH, if (to give an absurd example), the entire of Team Gridlock was re-assigned to create sexy underwear for Incarna, then that would be another thing entirely.

Hmmm.
/me closes down the profiling tools, and picks up a sketch-book... :)

You do, and the CSM will descend upon you, sharpened Sporks at the ready, and apply them to extremely sensitive areas. Do I need to remind you that Mynxee lives on a farm? She's got skills you really, really don't want to know about...

LimitedEdition T'amber
Posted - 2010.11.22 20:47:00 - [122]
 

YES YES YES!!!!

Spam removed. Zymurgist

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.11.22 20:49:00 - [123]
 

Quote:
no ISK for remaps

Why?? That would have been an awesome ISK sink now when you got the sink/faucet ratio completely out of whack.

Avowech
Minmatar
Murientor Tribe
Posted - 2010.11.22 20:50:00 - [124]
 

Microtransactions + Monthly subscription seem to be the latest scam for the MMO industry and I would have to say that EVE does not need to go down this path.
Retain your 50-75k+ subscribers with a decent development cycle and patch fixing process and refrain from the money grab that seems to have obsessed half the western world...

Not T'amber
Posted - 2010.11.22 20:52:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: LimitedEdition T'amber
YES YES YES!!!!

Spam removed. Zymurgist


YES YES YES

Spam removed. Zymurgist

Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2010.11.22 20:55:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik on 22/11/2010 21:01:25
Fantastic. I'm so glad that we have reasonable developers - that's a unique asset in MMO industry.

PLEX or any other form of it can and should be used for vanity items only.

Great decision!

edit: Great job CSM!

Leiture
Amarr
Liliis tenaci vimine jungor
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:04:00 - [127]
 

Quote:
And everyone knows what happens to dinosaurs.


Some evolved and became birds.
They fly so high so no one can catch them.

EvE should stay without plexaction, only way to evolve.

Astomichi
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:06:00 - [128]
 

To echo 9/10s of every reply in this thread:

I am wholeheartedly against any sort of micro-transactions.

You obviously already realize they're bad for Eve, or else you wouldn't be spending the effort trying to justify them. Don't sell out to short-term greed at the cost of long-term damage to Eve.

Gerazon Kaern
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:09:00 - [129]
 

To echo some other posts: Why will we not have remap for ISK?

Bhattran
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:10:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: CCP Masterplan
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
OTOH, if (to give an absurd example), the entire of Team Gridlock was re-assigned to create sexy underwear for Incarna, then that would be another thing entirely.

Hmmm.
/me closes down the profiling tools, and picks up a sketch-book... :)


MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

Laughing

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:14:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Mynxee
It's gratifying that CCP decided not to offer neural remap for PLEX; CSM made a very consistent argument against it.


I would prefer to see neural remaps converted to a booster, manufacturable by players, tradable on the market. Certain options then present themselves to make lowsec really matter, such as illegal neural remap boosters that reduce the drawback duration (eg: to 8 months) and increase the drawback effects and duration.

Originally by: Mynxee
I still question whether microtransactions--even for vanity items--is a good idea for EVE.


I agree, the main characteristic of the EVE market is that the players make everything. On the one hand already have PLEX/ISK as a microtransaction "currency". On the other hand, some players will derive some value from flying a ship that has a pink colour scheme as opposed to the default fluorescent green camouflage. If they want to throw their money at CCP for inconsequential benefits, more power to them.

Originally by: Mynxee
Why has CCP not pursued the strategy of licensing third party apps related to the EVE IP?


This is unrelated to microtransactions, and is being actively discussed in Assembly Hall.

Crazy Vania
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:15:00 - [132]
 

By the way. Some people seem to fail to realize something:

There was never any threat of CCP introducing uber gameplay items for PLEX/Real money. They are greedy, but they are not idiots. I think they have read the "how to loose all your memberships in 1 step" book, don't you ?

The only reason they introduced the idea was to make them able to introduce vanity items for PLEX as a "compromise".

I am laughing at all the "Thanks god CCP didn't introduce more gameplay for real money ! Thanks for listening to your community CCP <3 <3 <3!!" Gentlemen, you got played. CSM included.

Rynald
Quixotic Industries
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:20:00 - [133]
 

Perhaps I misread Zulu's blog, but it seems to me that the MT for vanity items was one of the ways(see: plural) that would be available to acquire said vanity items.

My understanding is that the items will still be readily available for ISK -OR- for a MT if you'd prefer.

Xander Hunt
Minmatar
Dead Rats Tell No Tales
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:22:00 - [134]
 

I think we, the users, are missing something "Big picture" wise.

Honestly, I have no idea what the impact of having vanity items or not is going to be. Give me a white toga, no hair style (Or no hair for that matter) paint my ships rust brown, and I'm happy. I don't care what my chars look like. I don't play EVE to design my characters, I don't play EVE to draw pictures, I don't play EVE to make things look good. EVE is already one HELL of a gorgeous looking game. With user created content of Hello Kitties, childish pics of dongs on ships, or seeing a PvP battle between Coke and Pepsi haulers, I'm pretty much against wanting to see anything user created. If there was an option to disable seeing user created content, consider it enabled so that I won't see that kinda crap on both of my accounts.

I can understand why CCP wants to get more cash flow into their pockets for this game. It isn't about being greedy, but looking at the finance books, I'm sure they're seeing problems. Nearly everyone I've ever talked to on the subject of paying for EVE has pretty much said that they pay with PLEX by buying them ENTIRELY with in-game products. I have *NO* metrics on it, but I'm sure that with the seasoned players, there are more people not paying for their accounts than those that are paying. What economical sense is this? How is EVE going to survive if EVERYONE starts buying PLEX?

I have absolutely no interest in anything vanity wise when it comes to EVE. Function over Form, 100% of the way for me. Make the game work, make it visually functional, and SOD off with taking money out of my pocket for a fancy hair do, because I'll NEVER put money into it anyways.

If I have to pay EVE to make my characters face, even once, I'm gone, never to return. On another topic, this whole thing of having Sanshas show up randomly and my losing have my resistances ON THE FLY no matter WHERE I am in that solar system already has me thinking I'll just spend the $40/month on other games.

- Let me play the way I want to play, not the way I'm dictated to play.
- Let me be scammed. Let me allow the scammer laugh and hear him scream WIN and have FUN with this game. Let me cry in the corner about losing something not real. Then let me realize that I have learned something new and continue on with more learning about this game.
- Let me pay the monthly fees and not worry about finding that I'm being nickle and dimed with real world currency for things that have no benifit aside from my looking good. A bow on my turrets isn't going to help much.

If I can play EVE and not have to worry about mandatory dealings of buying stuff I don't need/want, then whatever, I will deal. If I'm required to pay extra just for a shirt my characters have to wear? Sorry about the loss of your $40/month REAL WORLD currency.

Gerazon Kaern
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:24:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Crazy Vania
By the way. Some people seem to fail to realize something:

There was never any threat of CCP introducing uber gameplay items for PLEX/Real money. They are greedy, but they are not idiots. I think they have read the "how to loose all your memberships in 1 step" book, don't you ?

The only reason they introduced the idea was to make them able to introduce vanity items for PLEX as a "compromise".

I am laughing at all the "Thanks god CCP didn't introduce more gameplay for real money ! Thanks for listening to your community CCP <3 <3 <3!!" Gentlemen, you got played. CSM included.


QFT
I was just thinking the same. Too many people accept the lesser evil, when they should accept no evil at all.

Thaylon Sen
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:25:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Gerazon Kaern
Too many people accept the lesser evil, when they should accept no evil at all.


This.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:29:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Eve is a success because it is different. It will never be as "big" as a game like WOW, but it does not have to be -- and if it ever becomes "mainstream", the process of doing so will result not only destroy its uniqueness, but also render it vulnerable to attack by larger, better funded competitors.

"big", "excellent", and "profitable" are not synonyms. In fact, an argument can be made that you have to pick any 2.


Apple is a success because it is different. It will never be as "big" as a company like Dell or Microsoft, but it does not have to be — if it ever becomes "mainstream", the process of doing so will result in not only destroying its uniqueness, but also render it vulnerable to attack by larger, better funded competitors.

The data does not support the claim that rapidly pushing new features to market generates more profit than a few features, done excellently. Contrast Apple's profit share to any other PC or mobile phone manufacturer.

Didn't CCP claim that they were aiming to produce a "premium" MMO?

Help third parties monetise their EVE related assets (using ISK or real dollars), extract royalties from the third party market. There is no need to introduce any in-game microtransactions when you have e.g.: Capsuleer and EVE Central charging subscriptions which contribute royalties to CCP. EVE Online isn't known as "Capitalism 101" for nothing.

Not T'amber
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:31:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Not T'amber
Originally by: LimitedEdition T'amber
YES YES YES!!!!

Spahm removed. Zymurgist


YES YES YES

Spahm removed. Zymurgist


fixed your posts Very Happy
I'm just happy selling my main accounts, spending days on end annoying everyone in local and on the forums, quitting the csm and stopping everything I love in protest wasn't for nothing. This calls for celebration!


EPIC WIN!!!!
Thank you to everyone else who posted, submitted comments and voted!
Today is a great win in the fight against teh efil microtransactions



WEEEEeeeee!


Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:31:00 - [139]
 

Edited by: Alice Katsuko on 22/11/2010 21:33:23
Seems like a good decision. I've seen other games that attempted to sell standard in-game items for real money, at times with rather disastrous results on game balance. Selling vanity items that have no effect on the actual game, on the other hand, is a nice way to give some players what they want without causing balance issues.

That said, PLEX already mean that anything in EVE can be purchased for cash. A player can buy a PLEX, sell it for ISK, and use the ISK to buy an in-game item. The difference compared with traditional cash shops is that the price of PLEX, and therefore of items, is set by the players through the market, not by CCP itself. Furthermore, anything that can be bought with ISK obtained from selling a PLEX can also be bought with ISK obtained from ratting, scamming, piracy, or any other in-game mechanism available to all players. So in EVE there's no potential for stratification of the player base based on real-world wealth. And because anything in space in EVE can be destroyed, unlike in just about every other MMO, spending cash on PLEX offers no real permanent benefits over other players. A Titan bought with PLEX explodes just like a Titan bought with ISK.

With that in mind, allowing players to purchase vanity items for PLEX sounds like a rather nice idea. Players can already swap their portraits for cash, for example; there's no reason they shouldn't be able to do so for a PLEX or two. The same goes for other items that have no effect on actual game play. Whether a player's spaceship has his corp logo on the sizd won't have any effect on actual game play, so again there's no reason not to allow players to spend cash on it. I would suggest avoiding cash-only items and modifications, just so that everyone can potentially access them.

BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:39:00 - [140]
 

I still don't like the idea, I subscribe heavily to the "slippery slope" theory when it comes to this kind of thing. People have been long pointing out that $$ -> Plex -> ISK -> In game Items, so really money for items is, in some ways, nothing new.

However, I recognize the fact that this was placed there to help reduce RMT. If people can buy plex and sell it for isk, legally and safely, they'll chose that option and (hopefully one day) put RMT'ers out of business for good. That's why Plex's were introduced.

Then it was proposed for remaps, after reconsidering the idea, it's now just vanity items, but it's still headed down that road. From an business point of view I understand where CCP is coming from. When an entire industry shifts in a direction, those that don't shift will lose out. Maybe by staying true they will keep their core group of players, but that won't last forever. They risk not expanding, not growing, not getting the new players.

From a player point of view I hate the idea. $ = Game Time is great, ISK = Game Time is fine too, but $ -> ISK/Items... never liked the idea, never will.

I'll still be here though. What CCP has done may be the lesser evil, but it shows they are listing to the player and willing to compromise between what they want, and what the core group (or at least vocal majority) want. Therefor I'll compromise too. If they ever take it too far for my taste then I'll leave the game, simple as that, but they haven't yet and honestly I wouldn't know what that line was until it was crossed.

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:39:00 - [141]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 22/11/2010 22:04:36
Thank you, CCP, for listening and dropping that nonesense before it happened.

However, I still have to criticize one thing (I wouldn't be a proper customer, if I wouldn't :P) :

Originally by: Zulu
There is a constantly decreasing number of MMO‘s out there that don‘t incorporate virtual goods sales at some level. - games that aren't responding to this trend are dying out. Diversifying the business model allows us to offer our players the services and features they desire in ways that are conducive to how they wish to spend their entertainment dollars. The result is that we provide a wider range of options to our subscribers which, in turn, leaves us better positioned to react to future seismic shifts in the market.


You're implying, that those MMOs vanished, because they didn't change to MT. That's nonsense and I am really interested in what lead to this conclusion, since I can see a ton of reasons that were more important for those failings then not jumping onto the MT-failtrain.

Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
The Black Armada
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:40:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: CCP Masterplan
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
OTOH, if (to give an absurd example), the entire of Team Gridlock was re-assigned to create sexy underwear for Incarna, then that would be another thing entirely.

Hmmm.
/me closes down the profiling tools, and picks up a sketch-book... :)


I request pink frills on my alts please!

I will not be able to RP in Incarna without them.....Wink

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:40:00 - [143]
 

The crowd has spoken... and the crowd's a moron.
PLEX for instant remap would have been a GOOD thing.
But obviously, people are too afraid it might lead to ACTUAL "microtransactionland", so they killed what would have been an awesome feature.
Pfft.

Myrkala
Minmatar
Rebel Inc
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:43:00 - [144]
 

Edited by: Myrkala on 22/11/2010 21:45:23
Great news CCP.

To answer some of the people with not-so-good reading comprehension:

Originally by: "CCP Zulu"
It‘s clear that it‘s the will of the community to keep virtual goods sales outside the spectrum of what we classify as the "merit economy". That refers to skills gained over time or items that have a gameplay impact. So after discussions, designs, brainstorming and all sorts of processes we‘ve come up with a strategy that we‘ve already polished with the help of the CSM and would now want to present to the larger community.


-> Players elected CSM members to make sure MT did not allow players with more RL cash to get yet another way to gain an advantage, as it is already there:

Buy ETC -> Convert to PLEX -> Gain ISK/Assets OR buy Characters(Read:Skill Points)from the Character Bazaar with isk gained from selling plex.

I believe the major concern of the CSM/Playerbase was to stop ways of being able to advance your character faster than would be possible with normal gameplay, and I agree.

I don't understand while people are so concerned with CCP introducing PLEX for "Vanity Items" for two reasons and I can probably come up with more:

+ They don't give you any distinct advantages other than being perceived as a tiny bit more "unique" in the sea of players and perhaps give the people that do buy these vanity items a deeper/better experience of the game because it fits with their RP ect.

+ You are not required to buy them, and because they do not affect game-play at all other than on the æsthetical and vanity level, why are you so concerned?

The only reason I can think of is that you know you will end up doing MT yourself, simply because you "must" have that thing, that dangling carrot in front of your face. You are afraid because MT has been portrayed as an "evil" way of milking peoples wallets, as something addictive, because the items are "must-haves" that tickles players greed for everything they can't/shouldn't have. (In this case by their own discord.)

The playerbase/CSM has already made it clear what these "must-haves" are and that they should not be subject to MT "trickery".


Anyways, way to go CCP.

Thank you for listening to us, people with lots of RL Cash already have enough advantage as it is and making it easier for them to pay their way to the top will only make it more unfair.

EVE is a hostile cold dark place, where only your own skils, cunning, bravery, loyality and luck are your tools to reach success.

Let's make it easy for people to understand:

I respect a player that managed to scam someone for 100 billion isk more than someone that had the RL cash to buy 100 billion isk worth of PLEX and sell it.

I am pretty sure many others agree with me here.



Naomi Wildfire
Amarr
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:46:00 - [145]
 

I very much welcome the news but still:

There are two business models on the market

Monthly Fee - paying XX€/$ to keep the game running
Free 2 Play - Free in basic but the games is payed with microtransactions

CCP is trying to combine both. As a monthly fee provider they say "Hey look, those (F2P) guys are selling virtual goods, lets do the same", well, without removing the monthly fee.

In basic they are doing exactly what i said to my guys, plex for remap was just the beginning.

Kragaar
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:47:00 - [146]
 

darn, I was looking forward to more frequent remaps.

Exordium8
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:48:00 - [147]
 

I like this. A lot.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:52:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Myrkala
Thank you for listening to us, people with lots of RL Cash already have enough advantage as it is and making it easier for them to pay their way to the top will only make it more unfair.


What about people with lots of RL time to play the game? Don't they have an unfair advantage too?

Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:55:00 - [149]
 

This is a good compromise. I'm not a fan of the whole microtransaction thing in general, but if it is limited only to vanity items then I won't mind as much. Big thanks to CCP for listening to its players on this one.

Gil Danastre
Amarr
JAF-CO Exploration
Posted - 2010.11.22 22:03:00 - [150]
 

If you really want to "change with the times" why not release tools needed to create content for Incarna to the players, and have them come up with new clothes and such. Make a two-tier vetting process of it, with the players able to offer feedback and endorse, and once it hits a set number of endorsements, push it on to CCP for final vetting. If approved it goes into the game instantly and is available for other players to buy through whatever shop thing you come up with. The player and CCP split profits. This would be like PotBS and the valve store in TF2.

Speaking of Pirates of the Burning Sea, why don't you guys implement a similar system to how they did flags and emblems to Corp and alliance logos. Players would vet them and devs would final say them, and they'd be available nearly instantly for use ingame by you, and seeable by all other players.


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