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Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:49:00 - [61]
 

I for one look forward to showing up to a roaming gang of my bloodthirsty cohorts sporting a "Hello Kitty" paintjob on my ship. That's going to be funny I don't care who you are.... Git r' done!

Paskis Robinson
SPORADIC MOVEMENT
Merciless.
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:52:00 - [62]
 

Good job Zulu! 3 accounts that would have been abandoned are staying! And personally I'd pay to have our smexy INIT logo on my spaceship, who wouldn't. Incarna? Not so much, I have a Second Life account already, don't need another one!!

Meisje
Minmatar
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:56:00 - [63]
 

That's a relief! Thanks to the CSM for making a strong argument against the neural remap for plex issue and thanks to CCP for listening.

This decision, coupled with the recent overall change in CCP's approach to EVE (slower but more carefully implemented expansions/patches, dedication to fixing issues with neglected features) has really improved my opinion of this company.

Dalmont Delantee
Gallente
Shiloh Technologies
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:57:00 - [64]
 


Yay a side wards insult to backward religious nut jobs! Love it :P

I personally wasn't again plex for remaps, as long as everything is plex based I'm not too upset as ingame money can be bought for that.

Unfortunately though that would (and has) drive up plex prices massively and cause some issues regarding people's multiple accounts.


DeBingJos
Minmatar
Goat Holdings
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:58:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Crazy Vania
Edited by: Crazy Vania on 22/11/2010 17:25:34
I've read that thing. There is nothing that can come of this that is good. Eve doesn't need this, and that road is just a bad road. For example, if they restrict the amount of clothing I will be able to put on my character based on how much dollars/euros I send to them, then the character creation tool sucks. I don't want it anymore.

What's more, they are trying to sugar coat this with a ridiculous activision/blizzard speech of "we're not doing it for the money, we do it for you, our dearest customer ! we're advancing with the new technologies !" I hate that kind of speeches. Blizzard wasn't like this before, and then they started talking like this, and now they are starting to suck. Starcraft 2 is already showing signs of bad gameplay due to their greed. Like inability to play with people in other world regions. Like being able to choose your name only once, and having to pay for a new one. Battle.net 2.0 is restricting lots of choices you had in battle.net 1.0, and it's all in the name of "moving with the times, giving more choices to our customers"

Don't let CCP follow the same path. If you're introducing micro-transactions because you need the money to expand, be honest about why you're doing it at least. Be honest with your customers in general, in every decision you take. Don't say " there has been concerns with affecting gameplay, so we're affecting cosmetic items only ! Yay for you, customers, see how nice we are ! " that is just a white lie. The concerns were with cosmetic items too. You have CSM members who left to point that out. I wouldn't mind this change so much if it wasn't for the dishonesty.

And yeah, I agree, remapping with a PLEX is less worse to me than character creation being hampered by real life money situations, but that's just a side note. I still don't want microtransactions in Eve. Notice how the whole blog post is EXTREMELY careful about not saying that word by the way ? That's the kind of lack of honesty I'm talking about.


^^^this

Master Akira
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:00:00 - [66]
 

Well yeah, this is the lesser of two evils. Good that you guys reconsidered, but it would be even better if you didn't try to imply that to be succesful in a market YOU control (the sandbox/space game) you need to resort to free-to-play korean game tactics.

We pay a subscription already, there should be NO NEED for ANY kind of MT.

Rheige Bladewhisper
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:05:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Master Akira
Well yeah, this is the lesser of two evils. Good that you guys reconsidered, but it would be even better if you didn't try to imply that to be succesful in a market YOU control (the sandbox/space game) you need to resort to free-to-play korean game tactics.

We pay a subscription already, there should be NO NEED for ANY kind of MT.


When a phrase like "the lesser of two evils" has to show up, perhaps you should rethink whether you're wanting any form of evil in the first place.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:05:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Rage Spear
I have never played any other MMO nor do I intend to. I am here because EvE is unique, every step you take towards all the other MMOs is a step away from me and a step away from what made you guys great in the first place: YOUR WERE PREPARED TO BE DIFFERENT!

Please don't forget what made you great. If all the sheep are turning right that should be your sign to turn left.


QFT.

Eve is a success because it is different. It will never be as "big" as a game like WOW, but it does not have to be -- and if it ever becomes "mainstream", the process of doing so will result not only destroy its uniqueness, but also render it vulnerable to attack by larger, better funded competitors.

"big", "excellent", and "profitable" are not synonyms. In fact, an argument can be made that you have to pick any 2.

I've been giving people basic web-promotion advice to people for over a decade, and I explain the value of niches this way: if you are trying to sell hand tools, you will fail, because lots of people are selling hand tools, and you can't compete with the major brands. If on the other hand you specialize on, say, "hand tools for left-handed lesbians", then you don't even need to advertise -- eventually, every left-handed lesbian mechanic in the world will eventually find you and buy from you.

In the MMO world, EVE players are the left-handed lesbian mechanics.

Yuda Mann
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:07:00 - [69]
 

Has CCP done the math to see how many accounts they will lose by PLEX going too high, compared to how many more PLEX they will sell through microtransactions?
I use multiple accounts and pay for them all with plex, but they're almost too high now to make it worth it. If PLEX go up much more I'll be cancelling all but one. I like this game enough to pay for it, but not with real money on more than one account.

Tiberizzle
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:09:00 - [70]
 

PLEX for remap was a pretty good idea, so I'm surprised by neither the fact that the unwashed masses are offended nor that CCP is respecting their ignorant views on the matter.

Dzajic
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:12:00 - [71]
 

Hope lives on! Thank you CCP.

PLEX trade and character trade already allow all that should there be in aspect of "gameplay affecting" stuff. No need to change it, no need to add new options.

I'm generally against microtransactions in any shape and form, but if you deem that they are economically mandatory in order to sustain existence of CCP and EVE; then purely vanity and cosmetic stuff may be allowed.

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:12:00 - [72]
 

I don't like this, but I can live with it and it is definitely preferrable compared to the initial plan. I feel somewhat relieved by this announcement and I'm confident that I'll be playing EVE for years to come, assuming you keep to the limits you have now set out in this blog.
Quote:

There is a constantly decreasing number of MMO‘s out there that don‘t incorporate virtual goods sales at some level. - games that aren't responding to this trend are dying out.


I call partial BS on this. Subscription only games are currently doing well and haven't been doing this well ever before. There have been many recent failures, but they have honestly been bad/broken games. Plainly games not good enough to pay a subscription for. I know you have loads of buddies in the MMO arena, but honestly most of their games are pure garbage and you would do well not to mimic their ideas blindly. Also some games *cough*STO*cough* sell items and they still didn't do well. Selling virtual goods doesn't guarantee success and might push you to failure, if your product isn't that good to begin with.

Subscription based games have been pushed to the minory, because there is just a huge amount of hybrid model games flooding the market and they currently seem to do quite well. I remind you however, that most of those games aren't catering to the subscription MMO players, so their potential playerbase is much larger and those games aren't particularly good MMOs. You aren't directly in competition with any of them, that I know of, unless you copy the same garbage games other companies are pushing out currently. I stress that I'm not trolling here by calling those games garbage. They go for so simple and familiar gameplay, that they are often just shinier and more shallow paid versions of F2P games, and seem pathetic compared to the good and ambitious MMOs.

I would also remind you, that many of those succesful hybrid models haven't been on the market for very long. There is no way of knowing how sustained their model really is and that piece of the market can get awfully crowded very fast, sinking many current success stories and leaving only a few truly popular titles on the market. Similar to what you see in the much more mature subscription based MMO arena.

The point of all this is just to remind you not to get too jelous of other business models gaining loads of quick popularity and success, sometimes even beating your own model. Sometimes people are more succesful then you and many times you can't repeat that success by blindly copying what others did. Taking lessons from them is a good idea, but you are not guaranteed to be more succesful by copying what others did. The countless WoW clones and their quick deaths after often fantastic starts are a testament to that fact.

3 14rate
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:12:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Vincent Athena
The idea of PLEX for vanity items has me a little concerned. The idea that I need a PLEX to get a set of new clothes seems... excessive. Clothes cost as much as half a dozen battleships? For the cost of a PLEX I should be able to buy a complete wardrobe for all my pilots on all my accounts and completely furnish all their quarters on all the stations they stay at.

Many of the vanity items have a value far smaller than the value of a PLEX. You almost need to be able to break up a PLEX in a million parts, microPLEXes, and use them to buy stuff.


Something tells me that you - and the person after you - would love my idea here. Hell, something tells me that most of the community would love this idea better than CCPs.

Lateris
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:17:00 - [74]
 

Do it with dignity and respect for your community\customers.

egegergergsdgedgege
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:17:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Cailais
"There is a constantly decreasing number of MMO‘s out there that don‘t incorporate virtual goods sales at some level. - games that aren't responding to this trend are dying out".

The games that are dying out are dying out because they're not very good. Micro-transactions are the last gasp of the desperate - a chance to wring a few more coins from the cash cow before it dies. It's a short term revenue source - not least because once you've bought all your 'shinies' that's it - time to move on, and if you don't have the money it's also time to move on.

Had CCP brought in wide spread MT for EVE I would have left in a instant, but I might be able to bear at least some of the current MT plans although they're far from ideal.

C.


Even vanity item are in game items. I pay 15€ a month per account, but im still supposed to pay extra if i want that logo on my ship or that cool new tshirt.
Sorry, how much more money does CCP want to squish out of each customer? Eve already is a game where its quite usual to have two or more acounts. That is quite a lot of money per average customer.

If i pay a monthly fee to play a game I want to be able to use every feature of the game including fun stuff like vanity items.


Dakisha
The NomNomNom
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:18:00 - [76]
 

Does this mean there are things I won't be able to get without spending more money past my subscription cost? That is to say, clothes, custom paintjobs, etc?

That would end eve for me.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:19:00 - [77]
 

I just don't get it.

Why? Why selling (vanity) items for $$$?


It says that this is the trend? So what! What trend was it when EVE began? Just following the trend is just wrong. You need to be DIFFERENT if you want to be successful. Just running behind the trend will always fail. It is not innovative. It is backwards. It is wrong.


Okay, so the blog says, as example, vanity items like clothing, ships logos and such are to be bought and sold by PLEX.

Why?

Why does it need to be sold at all with out-of-game means?!

What is the reason behind this? It doesn't make sense AT ALL. All the items and services in game should kept in game! How hard is that to understand?

All the games out there doing microtransactions are doing it purely because they are greedy and want more income, mainly they are free-to-play and microtransactions their only income. And CCP is going to join them? Because it is the TREND?!? Come one! Rolling Eyes

You have medals currently, they are pure vanity items. Do you want that people must pay REAL MONEY in the future for medals (as example)? Why? Can't you see the complete idiocy??

WHY DO YOU WANT TO SELL STUFF FOR REAL MONEY INSTEAD OF JUST KEEPING IT FREE?!

You say that the community WANTS to pay for items (like mentioned medals) instead of having them as free gameplay covered by their subsciption fee?

Sorry, that sounds to me like complete bullsh*t. And you CCP, you should be absolutly ashamed of comming up with such completely ridiculous and utter stupid ideas.


Create exciting gameplay around those vanity items, how you create them, how you destroy them and how they are traded. Create interesting gameplay and you will have endless subscribers - you don't need ANY vanity-microtransaction. It doesn't improve EVE, it doesn't help the community, and running behind outdated, dying and scamming trends doesn't give you an outstanding reputation either.

DARE TO BE DIFFERENT!

It worked well for you in the past.

Dacil Arandur
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:20:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Dacil Arandur
I would bet that fixing the bugs and bad design decisions in EVE, and updating things like the UI would do a lot more for your revenue stream than adding microtransactions for vanity items. Are people really going to want to spend extra money for things that are likely to be broken anyway?


This is a valid concern, and one that I think the CSM will keep an eye on. As long as MT vanity items don't get in the way of "regular" EVE development (in other words, they would be profitable as an independent business unit, with its own {additional} staff), then I don't think there is cause for complaint.

OTOH, if (to give an absurd example), the entire of Team Gridlock was re-assigned to create sexy underwear for Incarna, then that would be another thing entirely.

As a CSM, I (and I suspect, most of my fellow delegates) will push CCP to monitor the effects of MT on both the game and the development of the game, and CCP should be prepared to demonstrate to us (so we can confirm to you) that regular development isn't getting parasitized.

That said, for CCP to want to diversify their income model a bit is not an unreasonable thing; it may well provide some risk-reduction on income streams, which makes the future of the game more stable. But again, this needs to be monitored.

One particular concern I have is that if PLEX are used for these microtransactions, then this may increase the demand for PLEX more than it does the supply, leading to an increase in the ISK value of PLEX. This is why I have suggested a second currency for MT (µPLEX if you will) that is divorced from the ISK--PLEX connection (though if vanity items are tradable, this becomes a route to ISK).


Thanks for the response, and for addressing some of my concerns.

My point was that CCP should focus on fixing and developing what currently exists in EVE, instead of looking for new ways to double-dip into their customer base. CCP should add those things Zulu listed and make them part of the standard game without having to hand out more RL cash on top of our subscriptions. With those kinds of improvements they will get more subscribers (instead of losing them like during the last expansion) because we who love EVE will be even more happy to tell our friends about it and get them to play with us.

I have had 4 different people (including my brother and my sister) play the full two week trial and then choose not to continue because it felt unfinished and broken, and primarily because the UI was so outdated and annoying. And to think they hadn't even tried POS or corp management yet :P These are people who heard me talk about the game and how much I loved it and how you could quite nearly do anything and be whoever you wanted. They were excited by it and tried it out.

What this game needs is polish, not paint jobs. Seriously, plain and simple, this game needs to be polished. If they polished the UI they would keep SO many more subscribers. Once you commit to this game it is not easy to leave, but the lack of polish makes it very difficult for people to commit in the first place.


Also, next time you are in Iceland tell Zulu that ripping on a large number of people's belief system doesn't make him clever, it makes him a douche. Even if many, if not most Christians do not believe in a literal 7-day creation, his comment implies that all Christians are ******ed. Honestly, what place does that kind of comment have in an official company statement? Why in the world would you choose to arbitrarily alienate a portion of your player base by mocking a real-world religious belief? If his game design choices didn't make me thing that Zulu was a moron, his PR skills sure do.

Disteeler
Perkone
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:21:00 - [79]
 

I hope I can pay for those items with isk. I just don't want to e-mmerse myself to buy in-game items with out-of-game money.

Yuda Mann
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:22:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Rheige Bladewhisper
If we don‘t react to the wishes of the market we will simply become the dinosaurs of the industry. And everyone knows what happens to dinosaurs. God makes them disappear. Through MAGIC.

Wow, really? Ragging on Christians while trying to backhandedly admit you were wrong on this? Rolling Eyes

It was actually a failed attempt to use a meme from ICP's Miracles (which has nothing to do with religion) to disparage a major world religion. I'd like to think CCP employees were much better than this at using internet memes properly.

Malen Nenokal
The Nightshift
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:22:00 - [81]
 

This is disappointing. Not so much the PLEX for vanity items bit, but I'm seeing some missed gameplay opportunities for mini-professions and player manufactured items by making them exclusively available through a micro-transaction store.

The Snowman
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:25:00 - [82]
 

I often wonderd why CCP suddenly pulled the 'logo on ships' wasnt it meant to come out with Apochrpyha? I guess they realised "hey, why should we put this in? If we keep quiet about it and say there were 'technical difficulties with the models' further down the line we could charge for it?... hehe, they bought that line about not being able to put missile launchers on the models"

So how many other features which "never made it" are we to suddenly see now that you can charge extra cash for it?

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:31:00 - [83]
 

page 3 and no Chribba.

But i do have 1 question, if we dont buy incarna clothing does that mean all our characters run around naked? Razz


But I think this is a good compromise. Sticking to vanity ONLY is a great way to do this. I for one welcome the hello kitty online fleets suiciding ice miners! That and corp logos on ships would be really cool.

Doppleganger
Minmatar
Band of Builders Inc.
Sodalitas XX
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:32:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Doppleganger on 22/11/2010 19:33:39
Originally by: Cailais
"There is a constantly decreasing number of MMO‘s out there that don‘t incorporate virtual goods sales at some level. - games that aren't responding to this trend are dying out".

The games that are dying out are dying out because they're not very good. Micro-transactions are the last gasp of the desperate - a chance to wring a few more coins from the cash cow before it dies. It's a short term revenue source - not least because once you've bought all your 'shinies' that's it - time to move on, and if you don't have the money it's also time to move on.

Had CCP brought in wide spread MT for EVE I would have left in a instant, but I might be able to bear at least some of the current MT plans although they're far from ideal.

C.



I agree....



This quote from the blog
Quote:
There is a constantly decreasing number of MMO‘s out there that don‘t incorporate virtual goods sales at some level. - games that aren't responding to this trend are dying out.
makes me say something my parents use to say (and damn you for making me even quote my parents) "if all the others kids were jumping off a bridge would you do it too?"



CCP and EvE has gotten to where it is now by leading the pack and not following it. Using the excuse that you might need to put in micro transactions because all the other kids are doing it is so lame. A lot of us that have been here playing consistanly for 7.5 yrs plus didnt come here cause it was like the other games out there, we came cause it was different.

Things like micro transactions will chase ppl like me off and I dont know of too many business that prosper by chasing off their oldest and most loyal customer base.


Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:32:00 - [85]
 

CCP, you have my thanks for not allowing PLEX for remaps.

It's the right decision.

However, I am still against the purchase if "vanity" items for PLEX, although this is less of an issue for me.

I don't agree with the "dinosaur" argument presented in the blog. Just because everyone else does something, it doesn't follow that it's the best thing for you to do. After all, at least 75% of other MMOs have elves in them...

4N631
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:35:00 - [86]
 

Rolling Eyes

hired goon
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:35:00 - [87]
 

I just want to say thank you CCP. Thank you for listening to us. It's easy to be cynical in this day and age, where large publishing companies and entertainment industries act entirely in their own interests, forsaking those who - at the dawn of market trading generations ago - would qualify for a polite "thank you for your custom". In this world where I had almost no faith left in these companies, you continue to prove you are different. Better. And deserving of all the hundreds I have spent on Eve so far. Thank you.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:35:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 22/11/2010 16:47:01
I still believe that CCP - as the company that prides itself on doing things differently - should not just follow the microtransaction crowd, and I would prefer to see eve stay completely microtransactionless (with PLEX being the only exception because of their effectiveness against harmful RMT).

That said, restricting microtransactions to vanity items only is the lesser of two (or more) evils, so I guess it's not too bad...


I already pay a monthly subscription, I don't see why I should have to pay more for certain things in game.

I know CCP say its not out of greed, but I don't believe that, to be frank. What other reason is there to introduce in game items for sale for RL mony? (lets not fool ourself, a PLEX is RL money)

Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:36:00 - [89]
 

Just to be supportive: I'm glad, Zulu, that you wrote this blog. It was quite clear that there was a disconnect between CCP and the players, especially the CSM, of what the effect of PLEX for remaps would be. That CCP have decided that this is now off the table means that the air is clear for a more open discussion. I'm glad you seem to be willing to have one this forum.

I'm also glad that CCP have decided that if ever micro-transactions would be introduced in EVE, it would only be for vanity items, which remaps clearly weren't. I'll take that down as a promise I'll keep CCP to. Clearly the discussions with the CSM and the players have had the right effect: a discussion within CCP and a decision that goes a long way towards taking a lot of sting out of the discussion.

As for micro-transactions in general, I'm not convinced yet. Not to be condescending or anything, but noting that a lot of other MMOs do micro-transactions and that therefore CCP should do the same for EVE is not a very strong argument. It's taking a single piece of a business model and trying to apply it everywhere else as if it's gospel. That's too one sided for me and ignores all the other pieces of the business models now applied to other MMOs and EVE. Just following the lead from other developers is not what CCP has done over the years, nor is there, in my opinion, a compelling reason to start doing it now, at least not just like that. To me, if you want to change the whole business model of the thing you guys do, you have to come up with something more than: "the other guys are doing it." You have to know the how, why, and what, and the answers to these questions should be pretty compelling.

Which is fine. With the immediate 'threat' taken away, there's time now to think about these issues, setup a vision statement and, if necessary, prepare a roadmap to get towards that vision. There's now time to do analysis and customer consultation. And that's what this blog was the kick-off for right? Right? RIGHT?

So. Let's have at it then. Let's leave the 'awesome' at the door and drill to the heart of the matter. Let's get to the pros and cons and make up the tally. From the previous posts it's clear you'll have some customer acceptance to attend to anyway, so why not do the tallying up in the open? As it is, micro-transactions clearly aren't that popular. For obvious reasons. So. No PLEX for remaps: good. If ever, then the promise of only for vanity or non-competitive items: OK I guess. But let's address the 'If' properly as well.

Ker HarSol
Minmatar
Zip - I
Posted - 2010.11.22 19:36:00 - [90]
 

Quote:
There is a constantly decreasing number of MMO‘s out there that don‘t incorporate virtual goods sales at some level. - games that aren't responding to this trend are dying out.


So??

EVE is the only MMO running on a single unsharded server.

Are you going to say - with the exact same argument - that you need to introduce shards and instances because it is the trend and because everyone else is doing this?


EVE is also the only MMO that is constantly growing for many years now.

Are you going to say - with the exact same argument - that this is against the trend of current MMOs and that you are going to stop growing and declining?



Where has your spirit gone? Where is your warcry:

"WE ARE DIFFERENT! WE ARE BETTER!"

Instead I just hear a whine
"Everyone is doing it, we must do it also".

CCP, you can do better!


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