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Posted - 2010.11.22 17:49:00 - [31]

Oh wow, I literally gave a sigh of relief while reading that. You guys gained a lot of respect in my book for this move.

One thing I will say when you're thinking of "diversifying" your business model is the old adage all our moms used: "If all the other kids jumped off a cliff, would you too?" Although other games offer extra stuff you can buy, partaking in it still makes me feel dirty, resentful and cheated out of my very hard-earned and limited money. Unlike most of these modern games where the subscriptions are only expected to last a few months, a strategy centered around greed in this game will hurt you long-term, as your best paying customers will gradually feel more and more victimized by this tactic.

If and when the greedy suits get their way (it's inevitable), extra stuff needs to be vanity only. Any more than that and when compounded with the unplayable condition the nodes will be in for the foreseeable several years to come, plus questionable development decisions, this would definitely be an issue I will very willingly drop my 5 accounts over (along with many many other long-term hangers-on). I know it's the cliche that's used at the drop of a hat on these forums, but I assure you I'm not the usual type to say this. The bitter vet in me gets stronger with every fleet I get sucked into attending these days...

Thanks again CCP. Wise decision.

Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:50:00 - [32]

Edited by: Vim on 22/11/2010 17:51:18
I would like to object.

God never created dinosaurs, nor does god practice witchcraft; This is an outrage for thoose amongst your subscription base with faith in the heavens.
Faithfull scientists all over the world have come to better understanding of the so called 'dinosaur' bones and the flawed use of carbon dating making them millions of years old. I will provide evidence, but it is easy: Go read your closest bible and the words of our lord which has been peer reviewed and found true by thousands upon tens of thousands upon millions of clergy across the centuries since our beloved lords son Jesus Christ walked among us as nothing but a humble man.

plex for vanity, I suppose I better start saving up a stack for the all black leather 'german' club outfit...

Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:51:00 - [33]

I immediately request that CCP clarify their current position and indicate whether or not any sauropodomorpha were harmed in the creation of this dev blog.

Evil or Very Mad

Hachi Ironfist
Rubbish and Garbage Removal
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:51:00 - [34]

oh shi- ... I just remapped because of the plex for remap :( can I get this reverted ? :P

Silen Boon
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:52:00 - [35]

Edited by: Silen Boon on 22/11/2010 17:59:21
Edited by: Silen Boon on 22/11/2010 17:58:52
While I find PLEX for in game items repugnant, I understand CCPs desire to explore this emerging revenue stream.

CCP do seem to be rewriting history. The way I remember it, PLEX was introduced to combat the proliferation of ISK sellers, and not "diversifying EVE Online's business model".

Rheige Bladewhisper
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:52:00 - [36]

If we don‘t react to the wishes of the market we will simply become the dinosaurs of the industry. And everyone knows what happens to dinosaurs. God makes them disappear. Through MAGIC.

Wow, really? Ragging on Christians while trying to backhandedly admit you were wrong on this? Rolling Eyes

But seriously... There is nothing else like EVE out there. The only people that can kill EVE are CCP. Perhaps, instead of trying to nickel and dime people, you should rethink your strategies for the game. Trying to pass off prototype models for WoD as a sign that you care about the playerbase is blatantly false. Trying to pass off greed in MTs as caring about the community is, again, patently false.

If you want EVE to survive, start working on the game itself. Don't stop working on it. If, at any point, you are working on something wherein you cannot actually think of a gameplay use, do not spend precious developer time on it. Stop trying to crib work for other games into EVE developer time. Stop trying to push concepts that players, loudly and repeatedly, state they do not want.

The only way EVE will die is if CCP itself kills it through mismanagement and destroying the trust of their player base.

I was really, truly happy with the announcement that you were getting rid of the plex for remap idea... and then, like with so many things, you had to ruin it with your presentation. Rolling Eyes

Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:55:00 - [37]

2nd page and still no Chribba Shocked

Glad to hear no PLEX for remap though!

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:55:00 - [38]


On the contrary - consumers trying EVE Online after trying other MMO's where they have to pay for everything, will be pleasantly surprised at all they get for free

You are grossly mistaken.

EvE was going to be the game where you pay microtransactions like "free to play" MMOs PLUS you also pay a regular subscription like non free MMOs.

So, "all they get for free" is a false statement, unless you kindly offer to pay my subscriptions fees.

Dissonance Corp
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:59:00 - [39]

Awesome to hear that Plex for remaps doesnt come.

Id like to point out though, that even vanity items should be completely seperated from those that offer an advantage. That means they must not be tradable on the ingame market or with Plex. If they were either, that would remove the cap on real money things we curently have by creating more demand for real money bought items. That would obviously lead to more expensive Plex, and thus to more Isk per € and thus to a much higher advantage for people that pay real money.
And a lot bigger advantage for real money paying people will lead to a situation where you need to buy Isk for new shiny mods to stay competable and that would really really bad, hmkay?

tl:dr: Vanity items are okay, but DONT make them tradable ingame or exchangeable for Plex

Regat Kozovv
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:00:00 - [40]

Good decision here. I think most players will agree that vanity items are fine; but no one wants to see someone be able to "buy" their way to the top.

While I can see no real downsides to CCP wanting to try it's hand at micro-transactions, I don't think that's the lesson to be learned by games that came before. As a couple of other people have already pointed out, EVE fits in a unique niche in the MMO market, and the slow start it took shielded it from the financial ruin that plagued some other games.

It's pretty clear to watchers of this game though that CCP has struggled to expand the game beyond it's core audience, however. It's numbers, while very respectable, are still relatively modest. Indeed if one were to plot EVE's subscriber base (not having exact numbers I draw my conclusion based off the occasional press release, industry articles, and hearsay) I bet it would look akin to a rack and pinion: sharp spike after an expansion release, and then a dwindle after the novelty wears off. A few users are gained over the long term, and some others leave.

Adopting features like microtransactions and things like Incursion can help keep it fresh, but I don't think that will give EVE the long term growth CCP seeks. It's my opinion that most of the game's new features over the past few years, with a few exceptions, are geared mostly towards EVE's end game; which is ironically where EVE has most of it's reputation based and arguably needs the least amount of help. The "new player experience" made breaking into the game easier, but did nothing to enhance the enjoyment of people's first few months (or year) in EVE. It is still an incredible wall for most.

I get the impression from the player base and the devs that there's little stomach for incorporating any features that make EVE resemble in any way a "traditional" MMO. But I feel in some ways that's exactly what it needs. No one needs dismantle the current sandbox play, indeed, I think it should be left entirely intact. But the sandbox isn't what most people are looking for. And assuming CCP is not content with simply catering to it's existing player base (which looking at it's aspirations, I'd guess not) then it needs to look at expanding not just EVE's feature set for the month, but how it's actually played.

Zahn Retmas
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:02:00 - [41]

I was quite relieved when I read this devblog, and while I too detest micro transactions I also understand the need to adapt to a changing economy.

TY for listening CCP.


Posted - 2010.11.22 18:04:00 - [42]

Glad to see thisis getting at least semi-shelved, like many I'd rather not see EVE go down this road at all, but as it seems CCP are hell bent on it to some greater or lesser extent this is probaly the least-worse scenario we can hope for.

That said, expect there to be hell to pay if ANYTHING we could use on our chars with the current "old" character creation system suddenly becomes "premium" content that we are expected to pay for. Make it so that everything we can do now we can do without additional cost in the future and there can be relative peace over this, I'm not even that bothered if 99% of future new stuff for chars becomes premium, so long as existing functionality/options are not degraded.

Also some info would be nice on how PLEX for vanity items would be worked or if there would be a new smaller unit created to handle these transactions would be nice, as others have already mentioned paying the cost of a couple of fitted bs for a new shirt seems a bit pricey! I understand there's probaly a lot (all?) of this that isn't yet designed at all so details may takea while, but do please update with ideas as and when you think you have a model to handle this that would work, of course we'll tear it to pieces to hopefully you'll be able to refine before launch than spring a complete disaster on usVery Happy

Rage Spear
Republic Military School
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:06:00 - [43]

CCP Zulu, every time you post a dev blog my faith in CCP is eroded.

Perhaps you are just a mouth piece for others who are mad/stupid however your relatively senior position in the company leads me to believe that these are your ideas. With this in mind please take what I say next as really honest advice from a customer to a businessman:

EvE has made itself a niche with a rabidly supportive, constantly growing playerbase by being different. Plex is a great idea and I am constantly stunned and amazed that it isn't copied everywhere. The single shard is amazing. The open, no boundaries world is everything that other companies pretend their products are but cannot deliver in reality. You have even managed to build an economy so deep it mimics the real world by making almost every item player made.

If you expand on these areas by giving more of the same kinds of things you will continue to grow. Every time you say something like:

"There is a constantly decreasing number of MMO‘s out there that don‘t incorporate virtual goods sales at some level. - games that aren't responding to this trend are dying out. Diversifying the business model allows us to offer our players the services and features they desire in ways that are conducive to how they wish to spend their entertainment dollars. The result is that we provide a wider range of options to our subscribers which, in turn, leaves us better positioned to react to future seismic shifts in the market."

You make a massive number of your most diehard fans cringe. I have never played any other MMO nor do I intend to. I am here because EvE is unique, every step you take towards all the other MMOs is a step away from me and a step away from what made you guys great in the first place: YOUR WERE PREPARED TO BE DIFFERENT!

Please don't forget what made you great. If all the sheep are turning right that should be your sign to turn left.

All items except the rarest should be player created and then sold through the market. If someone wants to buy the ISK they use to purchase these items through PLEX trading then so be it but any further mixing of the real and virtual economy is unnecessary. You have the greatest virtual economy in the world, why not use these new items to extend this great selling point rather than undermine it.

Shin Rhea
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:17:00 - [44]

It starts with clothes, then come special ships, weapons in DUST and finally when CCP realize that the skill-point system is ultimately flawed because a new player will never be able to catch up to the veterans they will implement PLEX-for-SP

It always starts harmless...

Ch'Ch'Ch'Chia Corp
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:19:00 - [45]

How about PLEX for character transfers?

kano donn
New Path
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:20:00 - [46]

dear god ccp.

with every dev blog you guys have been releasing. my opinion of your company and the people in charge of it ++.


The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:20:00 - [47]

Originally by: J'J'J'Jita
How about PLEX for character transfers?

We already have that ...

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:21:00 - [48]

+1 a good move!:)

keep up the good work!

Korbin Dallaz
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:22:00 - [49]

I'm glad that they are not selling remaps but I love how they try and spin it to make it seem like selling virtual items for real life money is somehow not a greed based decision. CCP it is that is a fact. If you were not you would not charge for them. Just like the PLEX for Hati thing was greed based. You guys did not match funds with anyone or anything like that. You allowed players to conctribute PLEX's to charity there by reducing the amount of PLEXs that you are bound to honor in the form of providing game time. You used a charity to cover your greed.

Now you are a for profit business your job is to make money and I understand that but don't try and tell me that your decisions or not greed based. You are a corporation and all of your decisions are greed based. Were they not you would be a not-for-profit charity. Please don't try and insult the intelligence of the players of this game by try to say up is down.

Gnu Terror Corps
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:25:00 - [50]

Edited by: Bluefix on 22/11/2010 18:26:44
This makes me sad and I wont bother writing much more as it is obvious that CCP is intent on thinking microtransactions are "evolution" and for the good of the players. It's not and it will always be greed.

Edit: I'm of course happy to see that they wont go full pay 2 win, but I didn't consider that any real chance anyway. That would probably kill Eve as we know it.

Largo Coronet
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:27:00 - [51]

Excellent news. You never want to incorporate any policy or procedure that allows players to advance their skills in game via the spending of actual cash. You can kill a game quick that way.

The vanity items idea is much more preferable. Look at all the cash Valve rakes in on TF2 for people who just want hats. Of the choices you bring up in this blog, the one most attractive to me would be the ability to put a customized logo on any ship I fly. Make it a perennial fee (monthly?) and allow a pilot to put a their logo on all their ships. Or come up with a way that a corporation could put their logo on all their pilot's ships. Of course, someone would have to make sure ship logos don't break any existing rules. Otherwise I can assure you that we Goons will stick things on the ships that you... don't... want. Twisted Evil

I can see some people are upset by this. Unfortunately, Zulu is right. It's become a necessary part of a game company's business model to make some form of microtransaction system available. It pays the bills. So long as it remains limited to items that have no effect on actual gameplay, I do not care. And screaming about game "purity" just makes you look more of a dateless neckbeard than usual.

But remember CCP: If there isn't a good game to play, people won't spend that money on it. Focus on core performance issues. You can have a couple of scrub programmers do the vanity stuff.

Posted - 2010.11.22 18:29:00 - [52]

Originally by: Mynxee
This topic--as the Minutes from the October meeting made clear--has been hotly debated between CSM and CCP for awhile now. It's gratifying that CCP decided not to offer neural remap for PLEX; CSM made a very consistent argument against it.

The arguments against "remap for PLEX" are plain stupid. Many of us were looking forward to that feature, yet you irrational nay-sayers had to frustrate it. This proves once again that CSM is completely useless and detrimental for EVE. The best thing CCP can do with you fun killers is to disband the CSM and listen to the community directly, in case CCP wants to know what the players think. It's not hard to create a voting system for certain topics, which reflects the opinions of the player-base much better than you. That's also much cheaper than giving you party-poopers free trips to Iceland, so that you can slag interesting game features.

Silen Boon
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:31:00 - [53]

Originally by: Shin Rhea
a new player will never be able to catch up to the veterans

This is one of be biggest myths that players of other MMO spout. In Eve there is no need to "catch up". Just because a player has more skill points doesn't make them better (more diverse maybe). A relatively new character can quite easily take down a player with many millions more skill points, it all depends on the circumstance.

Mme Pinkerton
The pink win
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:31:00 - [54]

Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 22/11/2010 18:41:04

- very happy to hear that the "PLEX for Remap" idea has been shelved.

- unsure about the "microtransactions for vanity items" concept; generally I have no problem with microtransactions -- I play League of Legends, have spent much more money on skins than it would have cost me to buy a comparable game (WC3, Demigod, HoN) and feel happy about it nevertheless.
But having both, microtransactions and subscription fee, would feel like paying twice for the same game Neutral (that's just a mental issue - even if the average amount I spend on EVE per month would stay the same it would still feel like overpaying).

- your audience might not include many people holding creationist beliefs but making jokes about them seems like a stark contrast to the behavior usually expected from a professionally-run company. If you want to let the suits run the income-side of the company, you better let them run the PR-side, too.

Mme Pinkerton
The pink win
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:33:00 - [55]

Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 22/11/2010 18:39:35
Originally by: Silen Boon
Originally by: Shin Rhea
a new player will never be able to catch up to the veterans

This is one of be biggest myths that players of other MMO spout. In Eve there is no need to "catch up". Just because a player has more skill points doesn't make them better (more diverse maybe). A relatively new character can quite easily take down a player with many millions more skill points, it all depends on the circumstance.

a new player can catch up relatively fast with most of the veterans ISK-wise (if he really wants to) and there doesn't seem to be a shortage of high-SP characters available on the character bazaar; the only thing special about a character is its name - portraits can be swapped, standings can be grinded and your employment history remains available for reference on your old character. So what's in a name? unless you're really deep into RP the only requirements are that it should be pronounceable on voice and its first letter should be somewhere near the middle of the alphabet.

Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:37:00 - [56]

I only find the idea of microtransactions in eve acceptable if they are an extra means of buying vanity items. The main thing that appeals to me about eve is that its not about how much cash you have IRL to make things shiney. By all means have the option to buy vanity items with real money but also keep it so that you can buy them with isk. Would keep your older, crustier toons happy and nicely dressed, and CCP will get payed by the younger toons that want to look as good ^^

Yuki Kulotsuki
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:41:00 - [57]

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
One particular concern I have is that if PLEX are used for these microtransactions, then this may increase the demand for PLEX more than it does the supply, leading to an increase in the ISK value of PLEX. This is why I have suggested a second currency for MT (µPLEX if you will) that is divorced from the ISK--PLEX connection (though if vanity items are tradable, this becomes a route to ISK).
This is relevant to my interests. I can't say conclusively, but it looks like the PLEX market has already been changing since PLEX is now tied to game time, portrait swaps and character transfers.

I'm also somewhat concerned about vanity items edging out player contributions in the incarna space. Since incarna seems almost entirely vanity at this point, a pessimist might assume everything but the basic items at character creation will require MT to acquire.

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:43:00 - [58]

Holy Jesus there's some whiners and headless chickens in here.

They just scaled back what would have been a crazy money maker (remapping) and would have amounted to HUGE profit for little work, yet all you tools are still ***** ing about purely vanity items being bought for money or Plex.

Relax, seriously, relax. There's no inherent good to be gained from 'refusing to go down the microtransaction crowd'. CCP/EVE won't be able to hold its head up high in denying additional, optional, features to its playerbase for additional profit.

As for Incarna merely being an excuse for microtransactions...well, you need to get on board. WiS has been around since before MT's have gotten big.

THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:48:00 - [59]

Originally by: CCP Zulu
And everyone knows what happens to dinosaurs. God makes them disappear. Through MAGIC.

You're going to hell for that one. On a serious note...not sure if serious.

Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:49:00 - [60]

"There is a constantly decreasing number of MMO‘s out there that don‘t incorporate virtual goods sales at some level. - games that aren't responding to this trend are dying out".

The games that are dying out are dying out because they're not very good. Micro-transactions are the last gasp of the desperate - a chance to wring a few more coins from the cash cow before it dies. It's a short term revenue source - not least because once you've bought all your 'shinies' that's it - time to move on, and if you don't have the money it's also time to move on.

Had CCP brought in wide spread MT for EVE I would have left in a instant, but I might be able to bear at least some of the current MT plans although they're far from ideal.


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