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Narkhana
Gallente
Infinium Trading Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.24 21:34:00 - [361]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
PLEX for remaps gives a concrete in-game advantage that is not available any other way.


That is a false statement. If a remap allows character "X" to get to a ship in (for example) 1/2 the amount of time than without the remap, and character "Y" spends 25 billion on a new character who can fly that same ship, who has the actual advantage? The person with more ISK. As well, Y also has the added advantage of not having to pay for his subscription (assuming Y doesn't spend it all on the new character.)


Narkhana
Gallente
Infinium Trading Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.24 21:45:00 - [362]
 

Edited by: Narkhana on 24/11/2010 21:48:28
Originally by: Iosue
Now, take League of Legends for example. I can start the game and begin playing by pressing the “Play” button. I don’t have to do anything to keep my account in good standing except pressing the “Play” button. This is literally free to play. Nothing is required to keep my account in good standing. Not the same as buying PLEXs and using them for game time.


I could buy 60 PLEX with ISK right now, cash them in for game time and would not have to do a single thing for 5 years. That requires 10 minutes maximum. CCP gets NOTHING from me doing that, therefore in their eyes it is Free to Play for my character for 5 year as I don't pay them any money and they don't receive any money from me.

Name me one single for-profit company that has a business model based on "You're time is valuable to our company, therefore we will give you our services for no fee". You can't do it.

Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
Posted - 2010.11.24 22:04:00 - [363]
 

Originally by: Kurnku
What an immensely constructive comment.

I reiterate, while real life money can purchase plex, and plex can purchase characters, how can you possible protest against plex for remaps? Perhaps you can answer that instead of trolling.


Tbh, my concern is more with CCP implementing MT for vanity items and making the markets less efficient by using PLEX as an alternate form of currency in game. Aside from that, I don’t really have a problem with the neural remaping for PLEX. I just think it benefits us vets way more than it does a newer player. Your rationale revolves around a new player using remaps to get into a new profession when they learn something new about the game. This is a totally reasonable scenario, but the need for remapping is way overblown. That’s because there’s a really easy solution for the new player that wants to train something new.

Don’t put all your eggs in one basket. That’s really more of a life lesson.

When a new player setups up their character, they should consider not putting all their attributes into just three categories. The term "well-rounded" has been around such a long time because it has benefits. Furthermore, most of the intro skills to new professions are low-level anyways. Sure the new player is going to have to wait a long time to train Gallente Carrier to 5 if they put all their points into Intelligence and Charisma, but they’re also going to have a hard time affording the skill books for it. Does that mean we should setup a caps-for-noobs fund to help them out?? Neural remaps has only recently been available in game. I just don’t see how having them really changes much for a new player. Great, you saved 6 hours training Industrial to level 4 after remapping all your points to perception and memory.

Otoh, for vets, I can see this being a big deal. First off, I can afford to buy a remap anytime I want. Secondly I know exactly what impact these changes are going to have for a whole set of skills. And this will really save me time training Fighters to level 5.

Dmoney3788
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.11.24 22:06:00 - [364]
 

Originally by: Joss56
*incoherent stuff*

Its obvious English isn't your first language (if it is...Shocked). Anyway, I'm not really sure what you are for or against, so if you have a friend or something that is better at English, please send him on so I can actually understand what you are trying to convey. Ok? kkthxbai.

Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
Posted - 2010.11.24 22:19:00 - [365]
 

Edited by: Iosue on 24/11/2010 22:48:20
Originally by: Narkhana
I could buy 60 PLEX with ISK right now, cash them in for game time and would not have to do a single thing for 5 years. That requires 10 minutes maximum. CCP gets NOTHING from me doing that, therefore in their eyes it is Free to Play for my character for 5 year as I don't pay them any money and they don't receive any money from me.

You still had to acquire that isk somehow. Whether this was in the past or will be in the future makes no difference, you still spent time acquiring the isk at some point. Or are you telling me that CCP sold you an account with billions of isk already in your wallet. If so, let me know the details of that subscription plan because I’d like to one too.

Furthermore, why should CCP care who paid for the subscription. The bottom line is that someone paid for the PLEX you are using with RL$. Does it matter if it was person using it or someone else? They just care about getting paid; and they are.
Originally by: Narkhana
Name me one single for-profit company that has a business model based on "You're time is valuable to our company, therefore we will give you our services for no fee". You can't do it.

Online games, Network TV, Online News Sites, Forums, Billboards, really any form of marketing or advertising in general. Also League of Legends… did you not read the post you were commenting on?? My time is valuable to them, so is a lot of other people’s time. Without our collective time and attention playing their game, reading their paper or site, or watching their show they have nothing. Especially not the chance that some of us will pay for the extra’s or patronize their sponsors.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2010.11.24 22:22:00 - [366]
 

Sad

EVE has the most advanced subscription/transaction model in the whole industry with their GTC/PLEX option.

Instead of focussing on their strength and communicating their advantages, benefits and future tech clearly and agressively, they cower back and turn away from the future, trying to implement outdated cash-cow models.

What happened?

Why don't you trust in yourself any more? Why do you need to copy backward models that only weaken your position?

PLEX are brilliant, they are the future. Your so called 'evolution' to MT is nothing else but a huge step backwards. It will lead to no good.

Implement out-of-game service with PLEX, implement the in-game stuff with isk.

KurnKuku
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.24 22:23:00 - [367]
 

Edited by: KurnKuku on 24/11/2010 22:33:22
Originally by: Malcanis

My answer would be this: PLEX for remaps gives a concrete in-game advantage that is not available any other way.

It's not a huge advantage, although the extreme emotion being used to defend it does makes me wonder why, if the impact of extra remaps would be so insignificant, that people are getting so mad about not getting them. But the fact is that it is an advantage and it's not the same as buying game time or even buying a character. It has points of similarity, but also important differences.

If I could be 100.00% certain that CCP were just going to make it a once per character lifetime option available in order to undo a remapping screwup, then tbh I'd be OK with it. But I'm not even close to 100% certain, and as such I'm very pleased that CCP have backed away from this slippery slope.


Thanks for reply....

The reason I personally think the u-turn on this is wrong, is that I thought it was a great idea.

The benefits to allowing players to change their direction, correct mistakes, and to take temp changes to their play styles efficiently had many plus points in my eyes.

I still do not see exactly how there is an 'advantage' to allowing remaps by plex.

I will give a few examples of where an advantage should occur, and then present an argument that that advantage either does not exist, or is so minimal compared with other advantages.

Case 1:
Two new players, neither can afford to buy GTCs. No advantage to either.

Case 2:
Player A and Player B are both new to game. They don't know each other.
Player A can afford to buy isk through GTCs.
Currently player A can then afford much better ships, much better modules, skill books immediately.
Player A also goes to the character bazaar forum and buys two alts with full PI and R&D agents, generating lots of isk straight away.
He has a huge advantage over player B that far out weighs the fact he can remap.
How is the fact that he is also now able to amend his training that much more of an advantage over player B?
Player B does not know what player A is doing, and is in no way disadvantaged.
If player B finds out about player A, I think he would be more upset by the fact he can 'buy' items he cannot, rather than the fact he can remap.
How is player B possibly affected by what Player A does?


Case 3:
Player A and Player B are both established players with equal isk earnings and pay for everything from in game made isk. They are both combat pilots with 20 million SP. Player A decides he wants to be a manufacturer so he uses some of his isk to buy a plex to remap.
How is he remapping to that possibly going to affect player B? Where is the advantage?
The option is there for both equally, one decides not to take it, one does, player B however is probably happier knowing that he can remap if he chooses at any point.



The 'advantage' just does not exist, and the only potential time it could be deemed an advantage, it is massively overshadowed by already permitted advantages to those who can afford it.

Stopping the plex for remaps imo is a bad thing. They would of allowed better faster more dynamic character development, allowed errors to be fixed, and stopped people being basically tied to a profession that they no longer enjoy.

Suggesting that buying GTCs or characters is not an advantage in game I really do not understand, both offer huge advantages compared with remapping.

This is why I am quite upset by it. It was a good idea that is no more.

Please if anyone can help me see the light, it would be appreciated.

Edit - one other potential downside to them is plex prices...however that is a moot point as the vanity items will be purchased 10x more at least in my opinion. People love hats!

Mme Pinkerton
The pink win
Posted - 2010.11.24 22:32:00 - [368]
 

Who the hell came up with that silly "old players want to maintain their advantage" argument?

The new player is either fairly limited in remaps without hurting his wallet disproportionally or has to shell out RL money for the remap.

The old player just buys as many remaps as necessary to get optimal training speed (via PLEX bought with ISK) without affecting his overall wealth significantly.

So the old player always trains at optimal speed while the new one only trains that fast if he has a training plan tailored to reduce the number of remaps or spends RL cash.

How does this benefit the new player?


From my POV the "old players want to maintain their advantage" argument goes like this:
* old players don't like "PLEX for Remap"
-> therefore they won't use PLEX for Remap
-> but young players will use "PLEX for Remap"
-> therefore the newer players will train faster than the old ones on average
-> therefore the old players fear they might lose their SP advantage
-> therefore the old players don't like "PLEX for Remap"

But even this (completely absurd) chain of reasoning breaks down on the 2nd point - EVE is a pvp game and anything that might give you an advantage over other players (without breaking rules) will be used even if you don't like it.

KurnKuku
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.24 22:42:00 - [369]
 

Edited by: KurnKuku on 24/11/2010 22:52:21
Edited by: KurnKuku on 24/11/2010 22:48:53
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
Who the hell came up with that silly "old players want to maintain their advantage" argument?

The new player is either fairly limited in remaps without hurting his wallet disproportionally or has to shell out RL money for the remap.

The old player just buys as many remaps as necessary to get optimal training speed (via PLEX bought with ISK) without affecting his overall wealth significantly.

So the old player always trains at optimal speed while the new one only trains that fast if he has a training plan tailored to reduce the number of remaps or spends RL cash.

How does this benefit the new player?




I disagree with this. An older player is much more likely to have his attributes already optimised, and will going down a training route that does not mean much changes to those attributes. Certainly not that often anyway training level V.

The new player is more likely to get them wrong, or to want to change the direction they are going. The leveling system allows newer players to play catch up, they will never reach the older players, but they can get close enough.

Remapping will not allow the older player to pull ahead of the newer player fast enough to change this fact, they will always catch up.

It will however mean the new player can get into a carrier quicker, or into t3 manufacturing quicker, or whatever. Sure from an SP per hour point of view, the older player will be getting further away, but this is already the case due to implants, but from a % of things accomplished in game, it will make little difference.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.11.24 22:44:00 - [370]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 24/11/2010 22:44:58
Edited by: Malcanis on 24/11/2010 22:44:38
Originally by: Malcanis

I look forward to your passionate and poorly typed refutation of the concept of being able to play for free being equivalent to free to play.



Originally by: Iosue
Originally by: Malcanis
I'm playing EVE and I'm not paying any money. So it's free for me to play. So, not so much "bull****" as "the literal truth".

Lets see if I can make this any easier to understand....

You have to do something to keep your EVE account in good standing so you can continue to play. This is achieved is by purchasing PLEX with isk. You have to obtain the isk somehow. Whether that be thru mining, missioning, PI, collecting and selling datacores, pirating or setting up a lotto on the forums, you must spend some amount of time doing something. Your time has value; even the bum on the corner asking for a hand out values his time. That time/value is what you spend to play the game, thus the game is not free to play because you spend something of great value in exchange for the ability to play: your time. I say great value because once you use up all your time, you die. End of story. Now if you don’t value your limited time on this earth, then you don’t value your life. If this is the case then you should just kill yourself now and stop posting in this thread.

Note: if you argument is that EVE is free to play on this basis, you are also arguing that minerals from mining are free. The only thing needed to obtain minerals from mining is time. You don’t even have to buy a ship because the free noob ship comes with a mining lazer on it.

Now, take League of Legends for example. I can start the game and begin playing by pressing the “Play” button. I don’t have to do anything to keep my account in good standing except pressing the “Play” button. This is literally free to play. Nothing is required to keep my account in good standing. Not the same as buying PLEXs and using them for game time.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.11.24 22:49:00 - [371]
 

Originally by: Narkhana
Originally by: Malcanis
PLEX for remaps gives a concrete in-game advantage that is not available any other way.


That is a false statement. If a remap allows character "X" to get to a ship in (for example) 1/2 the amount of time than without the remap, and character "Y" spends 25 billion on a new character who can fly that same ship, who has the actual advantage? The person with more ISK. As well, Y also has the added advantage of not having to pay for his subscription (assuming Y doesn't spend it all on the new character.)




Why dont you do that instead of complaining about not getting remaps then? If they're just the same, I mean, why worry that you can have one and not the other?


Or maybe they're not quite so similar after all...?

Morar Santee
Posted - 2010.11.24 23:57:00 - [372]
 

Originally by: Malcanis

I look forward to your passionate and poorly typed refutation of the concept of being able to play for free being equivalent to free to play.



CCP receives 15$ for each active account for providing their service. That, by definition, means it is a paid service, as opposed to a free service. No matter how much of a moron you are, you can not argue that because you did not pay for a service with your own dollars, the service is free. On the same note you could argue buying a car costs nothing because you bought it with your mommy's credit card and did not have to pay yourself.

So is there any chance, any chance at all, you will stop this ******ed pretense of having an argument?

Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
Posted - 2010.11.24 23:58:00 - [373]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Edited by: Malcanis on 24/11/2010 22:44:58
Edited by: Malcanis on 24/11/2010 22:44:38
Originally by: Malcanis

I look forward to your passionate and poorly typed refutation of the concept of being able to play for free being equivalent to free to play.



Originally by: Iosue
Originally by: Malcanis
I'm playing EVE and I'm not paying any money. So it's free for me to play. So, not so much "bull****" as "the literal truth".

Lets see if I can make this any easier to understand....

You have to do something to keep your EVE account in good standing so you can continue to play. This is achieved is by purchasing PLEX with isk. You have to obtain the isk somehow. Whether that be thru mining, missioning, PI, collecting and selling datacores, pirating or setting up a lotto on the forums, you must spend some amount of time doing something. Your time has value; even the bum on the corner asking for a hand out values his time. That time/value is what you spend to play the game, thus the game is not free to play because you spend something of great value in exchange for the ability to play: your time. I say great value because once you use up all your time, you die. End of story. Now if you don’t value your limited time on this earth, then you don’t value your life. If this is the case then you should just kill yourself now and stop posting in this thread.

Note: if you argument is that EVE is free to play on this basis, you are also arguing that minerals from mining are free. The only thing needed to obtain minerals from mining is time. You don’t even have to buy a ship because the free noob ship comes with a mining lazer on it.

Now, take League of Legends for example. I can start the game and begin playing by pressing the “Play” button. I don’t have to do anything to keep my account in good standing except pressing the “Play” button. This is literally free to play. Nothing is required to keep my account in good standing. Not the same as buying PLEXs and using them for game time.



Wow, its not very often that you see people highlight their logical short-comings on internet forums.

Kudos to you!

wr3cks
Reliables Inc
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.11.25 00:35:00 - [374]
 

Originally by: Dacil Arandur
I would bet that fixing the bugs and bad design decisions in EVE, and updating things like the UI would do a lot more for your revenue stream than adding microtransactions for vanity items. Are people really going to want to spend extra money for things that are likely to be broken anyway?

Having microtransactions is seriously terrible. It works for games like League of Legends because it is free to play and I buy skins to voluntarily show them that I appreciate their effort. For EVE, I'm paying you a monthly fee (actually three) to provide a service. If EVE were running great, without massive or annoying bugs that last for YEARS, with an updated intuitive pleasant UI, and with REGULAR balance fixes (like EVERY OTHER MMO) I would consider spending a little extra to show that I appreciate your effort. As it stands right now I have to ask: Where is the effort?


This guy from the first page is exactly right. Your core product is aging and flawed. How many people try the game and quit within two weeks because of the UI? How does that lost revenue compare to your expected income from microtransactions? How many people get tired of the game and leave because you don't keep up with balance and bugfixes?

Your business strategy is For Real Too Stupid.

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2010.11.25 01:12:00 - [375]
 

Originally by: wr3cks
Your business strategy is For Real Too Stupid.


Actually, their business strategy is: You Can Fool Some of the People All of the Time.

Narkhana
Gallente
Infinium Trading Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.25 06:30:00 - [376]
 

Edited by: Narkhana on 25/11/2010 06:31:16
Originally by: Malcanis

Why dont you do that instead of complaining about not getting remaps then? If they're just the same, I mean, why worry that you can have one and not the other?

Or maybe they're not quite so similar after all...?


The end result is similiar for both EXCEPT that the remap would still require me to time training. Buying a character wouldn't add that additional time requirement. Sure, it will have taken me time to accumulate the initial capital to buy the character, however after a few good scams it is possible. So if going the route of stealing isk from other players (maybe the same ISK they got from a PLEX) is a valid way to gain skill points, then logically buying a remap requires more time, is less detrimental to other players, and gets CCP money. You complain that just plex for remap gives an unfair advantage? The above scenario gives no unfair advantages, plus CCP gets let money. (Just a disclaimer that I don't actually scam people.) Very Happy

Tiger's Spirit
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.25 07:47:00 - [377]
 

Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 25/11/2010 07:47:58
Originally by: ceaon
Originally by: Malcanis


EVE already has a free to play option.

that is bull**** go and play world of tanks and tell me if you need to farm ingame money to pay your subscription


Bullsh*t ? No, that's true, i would look at it if CCP deleting Plexes, how you would starting to crying.

Lallante
Reikoku
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2010.11.25 09:11:00 - [378]
 

Edited by: Lallante on 25/11/2010 09:12:23
Miracle of Miracles. 2 Well-PRd and well played moves by CCP in a row (first being patch delay).

Is this the old CCP of 2003 We knew and love (and may only have existed in our bittervet imaginations?)???

Congrats CCP on an excellent decision. SHC as a community is collapsing now the bittervets have so little to complain about.

Obligatory: WHY ARE YOU BLOGGING ABOUT MICROTRANSACTIONS WHEN YOU COULD BE FIXING LAG?


PS: Overhaul of UI should definitely be your next big project. Its definitely the most dated element of eve right now.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.11.25 09:30:00 - [379]
 

CCP got trolled hard on this one. Laughing

Layla
Our Lord Jesus
Posted - 2010.11.25 11:24:00 - [380]
 

Edited by: Layla on 25/11/2010 11:24:52
I am in favour of this approach and look forward to buying some of the vanity items.

I hope there will be a large variety.

Eve is a large enough Universe and game to support a range of different gaming styles. Vanity items are entirely optional, dont affect game-play and are fun.

I like fun!

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.11.25 12:23:00 - [381]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 25/11/2010 12:49:06
Originally by: Lallante
Miracle of Miracles. 2 Well-PRd and well played moves by CCP in a row (first being patch delay).


We're at 3 now. Count rising... and I'm not talking about Count von Count here.

Originally by: Lallante
Congrats CCP on an excellent decision. SHC as a community is collapsing now the bittervets have so little to complain about.


It's really becoming scary over there... Next to everyone's happy... That's depressing... Neutral

Zardock
Reikoku
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2010.11.25 13:49:00 - [382]
 

Isk for remap.

leaderp
Posted - 2010.11.25 14:47:00 - [383]
 

i have to think the implications of this through - but this means plex prices will rise significantly - right?

Harrigan VonStudly
Original Sin.
Underworld Excavators
Posted - 2010.11.25 15:51:00 - [384]
 

Eve is one fascinating and absolutely awesome game. Imo I say let Eve stand on the merits that has made it into the awesome game that it is today. Continue to build and prove upon what is already in place. The merits that make this game ridiculously fantastic are enough for it to survive. There's no need for this "other" stuff to inject income streams in manners that are questionable. If it (Eve) doesn't survive, well, the way of the world and economies currently are going to take us all and everything we know down the drain anyhow.

Vaffel
Posted - 2010.11.25 15:52:00 - [385]
 

Edited by: Vaffel on 25/11/2010 15:59:57
The day you can buy sp for $ is the day I resign my three accounts, simple as that.

Dmoney3788
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.11.25 16:10:00 - [386]
 

Originally by: Vaffel
Edited by: Vaffel on 25/11/2010 15:59:57
The day you can buy sp for $ is the day I resign my three accounts, simple as that.

Same here. However, plex for remap is not the same as buying SP.

ChaoticDemon
Posted - 2010.11.25 16:20:00 - [387]
 

I wouldn't mind seeing plex used for things that can be bought for real money now such as character transfers or portrait changes but other then that no!

KurnKuku
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.25 17:01:00 - [388]
 

Originally by: ChaoticDemon
I wouldn't mind seeing plex used for things that can be bought for real money now such as character transfers or portrait changes but other then that no!


You can now use plex to sell characters.

Khadann
Caldari
Sense of Serendipity
Echoes of Nowhere
Posted - 2010.11.25 18:01:00 - [389]
 

"If we don‘t react to the wishes of the market we will simply become the dinosaurs of the industry. And everyone knows what happens to dinosaurs. God makes them disappear. Through MAGIC."


I think SOE thought exactly the same when they killed Star Wars Galaxies, the best Sandbox at the time...

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.11.25 19:17:00 - [390]
 

Originally by: Morar Santee
Originally by: Malcanis

I look forward to your passionate and poorly typed refutation of the concept of being able to play for free being equivalent to free to play.



CCP receives 15$ for each active account for providing their service. That, by definition, means it is a paid service, as opposed to a free service. No matter how much of a moron you are, you can not argue that because you did not pay for a service with your own dollars, the service is free. On the same note you could argue buying a car costs nothing because you bought it with your mommy's credit card and did not have to pay yourself.

So is there any chance, any chance at all, you will stop this ******ed pretense of having an argument?



"Free" means "someone else pays". That's what it means. When you get a free hamburger in a "buy one get one free!" offer, it was paid for directly by the hamburger shop, and indirectly by the extra stuff bought by the additional customers buying more stuff. The burger didn't suddenly pop in to existence. "Free" does not mean "defies the laws of thermodynamics". It just means that you don't pay for it, not that it wasn't paid for by anyone.

in normal F2P games the freeloaders are indirectly paid for by the people who pay for premium accounts, or who buy stuff from the cash shop.

In EVE, the freeloaders are more directly paid for by the buyers, but that's the only difference. It's not a significant one.

EVE has a F2P option, QED. I know because I'm using it. I'm playing for free because 26 guys who wanted 300 million ISk more than they wanted 30 days of play time sold me a PLEX.


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