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CCP Fallout

Posted - 2010.11.22 16:31:00 - [1]
 

CCP Zulu's new dev blog discusses the concerns players have had regarding neural remapping that was recently found on Singularity, the future of PLEX, and how EVE Online will move forward. You can read it all here.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.22 16:35:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Trebor Daehdoow on 22/11/2010 16:42:14
I am very pleased (both as a CSM and a player) about this decision. IMHO, restricting MT to vanity items avoids the risk that they could destabilize the game by giving in-game advantages.

PS: IBC

Astald Ohtar
AtlantiA French Corp
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2010.11.22 16:36:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Astald Ohtar on 22/11/2010 16:38:01
NOES !

Edit : i've just read it YEAH !

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.11.22 16:39:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Virtuozzo on 22/11/2010 16:46:33
Falling prey to thoughts of becoming the dinosaurs of the industry is understandable, but irrational. CCP is different, you are far enough from the industry to escape its excess, and close enough to dominate the markets you hold.

To quote someone else from a recent discussion:

EVE as an IP and CCP as a company has an effective monopoly on the sandbox MMO marketplace, a good ecological niche that is reasonably protected from predators. It is better to be the biggest minnow in the puddle than a big fish in the sea, because you are at the top of a restricted food chain. You may not get huge, but you will never get eaten.

Get to that point first, while preparing ventures to conquer further puddles and seas. Without forgetting the puddle that feeds.

Fear of big fishes, is only rational if you swim in their sea, and they are too big to enter yours.


Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
Posted - 2010.11.22 16:41:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Terranid Meester on 22/11/2010 16:43:17
Quote:
If we don‘t react to the wishes of the market we will simply become the dinosaurs of the industry. And everyone knows what happens to dinosaurs. God makes them disappear. Through MAGIC.


What is this mysterious market you refer to? Have the EvE Online portion of the market actively wished for virtual goods sales? Will creating vanity items cut down of the real changes that EvE needs to keep its players? The metaphorical meteorite is not lack of virtual goods for sale but stale and badly thought out gameplay. Not that I am against vanity items but I don't pay a subscription for the sale of virtual goods.

egegergergsdgedgege
Posted - 2010.11.22 16:43:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: egegergergsdgedgege on 22/11/2010 16:43:31
Quote:
There is a constantly decreasing number of MMO‘s out there that don‘t incorporate virtual goods sales at some level. - games that aren't responding to this trend are dying out.


There is a constantly decreasing number of MMOs out there that don't incorporate open pvp. Games that aren't responding to this trend are dying out.

Confused

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.11.22 16:43:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 22/11/2010 16:47:01
I still believe that CCP - as the company that prides itself on doing things differently - should not just follow the microtransaction crowd, and I would prefer to see eve stay completely microtransactionless (with PLEX being the only exception because of their effectiveness against harmful RMT).

That said, restricting microtransactions to vanity items only is the lesser of two (or more) evils, so I guess it's not too bad...

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.11.22 16:54:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Mynxee on 22/11/2010 17:05:53
This topic--as the Minutes from the October meeting made clear--has been hotly debated between CSM and CCP for awhile now. It's gratifying that CCP decided not to offer neural remap for PLEX; CSM made a very consistent argument against it. Thank you CCP Zulu for staying engaged in the microtransactions and PLEX for neural remap discussion since the October meeting.

I still question whether microtransactions--even for vanity items--is a good idea for EVE. While I understand the motivations for a company seeking to add income streams, I have to ask two questions:

Is CCP working on a solid, tangible well-researched vision and strategy for implementation of microtransactions (for example, will vanity items be destroyable? Tradable? Sellable?) or are you just running after the herd assuming they're all headed in the right direction?

Why has CCP not pursued the strategy of licensing third party apps related to the EVE IP? Allowing developers to monetize apps (e.g., the now defunct Capsuleer or EVE-Metrics) is a win-win-win situation...CCP gets paid, third party developers get paid, and players get a lot more options for neat tools, EVE IP mini games, and other cool stuff.

Also, IBC. \o/

iP0D
Posted - 2010.11.22 16:54:00 - [9]
 

Such a shame that Incarna has so little time to go and is looking so empty. You could have been awesome and taking the EVE principle of "player driven events" to "player driven content" and built on that to stand way above anyone else.

But ok.



Vincent Athena
Posted - 2010.11.22 16:57:00 - [10]
 

The idea of PLEX for vanity items has me a little concerned. The idea that I need a PLEX to get a set of new clothes seems... excessive. Clothes cost as much as half a dozen battleships? For the cost of a PLEX I should be able to buy a complete wardrobe for all my pilots on all my accounts and completely furnish all their quarters on all the stations they stay at.

Many of the vanity items have a value far smaller than the value of a PLEX. You almost need to be able to break up a PLEX in a million parts, microPLEXes, and use them to buy stuff.

Manfred Rickenbocker
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2010.11.22 16:57:00 - [11]
 

If you are indeed going to micro-transactions for vanity items, I presume that means you are going to break plex up into smaller increments or enable their conversion to points or hopefully an alternative trade item. Microtransactions take place with values around 1$ or less, and a plex is way more valuable.

Stealth Edit: I hope I wont have to use a microtransaction to get toga clothing in the new character creator. As an Intaki, I am going to miss my toga Sad

Dacil Arandur
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:00:00 - [12]
 

I would bet that fixing the bugs and bad design decisions in EVE, and updating things like the UI would do a lot more for your revenue stream than adding microtransactions for vanity items. Are people really going to want to spend extra money for things that are likely to be broken anyway?

Having microtransactions is seriously terrible. It works for games like League of Legends because it is free to play and I buy skins to voluntarily show them that I appreciate their effort. For EVE, I'm paying you a monthly fee (actually three) to provide a service. If EVE were running great, without massive or annoying bugs that last for YEARS, with an updated intuitive pleasant UI, and with REGULAR balance fixes (like EVERY OTHER MMO) I would consider spending a little extra to show that I appreciate your effort. As it stands right now I have to ask: Where is the effort?

Palovana
Caldari
Inner Fire Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:00:00 - [13]
 

I'm just glad I didn't shoot my wad early and remap on TQ under the assumption I could remap again in six months.

dead grape
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:04:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: dead grape on 22/11/2010 17:05:28
I think this is a sad revelation. I for one support PLEX for remap, and even PLEX for skill points.

I took a break from EvE for 9 months, I don't think it would invalidate or unbalance anything to allow me to purchase SP to make up for missed subscription time. Simply limit the purchases so you can never buy SP to bring your total to more than what you would have if you'd been training at 2100 sp/hr since character creation.

People loose subscription for a variety or reasons in real life, when they are able to come back to the game allowing them to purchase back time seems perfectly reasonable.

(of course CCP wasn't touching PLEX for SP with a 10 foot pole, they were doing PLEX for remaps, and people were scared of the slippery slope.)

Edit: Not to mention with the buying and selling of characters there is already a very real trade of real money to isk to skill points.

Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
The Black Armada
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:06:00 - [15]
 

IBC and Thank god!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

iP0D
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:08:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Mynxee

Why has CCP not pursued the strategy of licensing third party apps related to the EVE IP? Allowing developers to monetize apps (e.g., the now defunct Capsuleer or EVE-Metrics) is a win-win-win situation...CCP gets paid, third party developers get paid, and players get a lot more options for neat tools, EVE IP mini games, and other cool stuff.



Business development bandwidth, and IP management vision. They have not had the time in heavy growth to stop and breathe, a lot of processes and interactions (personal and business alike) have gotten stretched, segmented and segregated. So it is not a surprise.

I agree btw. CCP could have turned the cash cow - without compromising it or running that risk - into something not just grand, but even more rewarding for customers and them alike, leaving the rest of the industry standing and wondering.

These days CCP gets industry peer awards because deep down their peers are simply jealous of CCP's independance, unlike they themselves, in being different and standing without control from suits or publishers. It is a bit of a shame that CCP did not see the potential, and could have turned that into something awesome.

But, there is hope. This cannot have been easy, this blog, nor the thoughts and discussions that went into it. So, it is good to see that, and to see the show back again on the road.


Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:10:00 - [17]
 

I heard logos on ships! If they implement THIS UI CHANGE then I can't wait!

Also, can we spend PLEX on strippers for our pod-pad? Laughing

Rustpunk
Minmatar
No-Mercy
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:14:00 - [18]
 

Good decision, although I do hope we're not going to end up having to pay RL $ to change our appearance. 1 PLEX for, say, 10 "re-design credits" or something would work. But requiring $10 every time I decide I want my character to change shirts or shave? No thanks.

egegergergsdgedgege
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:19:00 - [19]
 

Hello CCP

So basically you are investing a major portion of our subscription money to implement a 3D chat client where we can buy virtual clothes with even more money. Confused

You can do so, but don't expect me to renew my subscription.

Evil or Very Mad

Mr LaForge
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:20:00 - [20]
 

In before Chribba.

This is good news imo.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:21:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Dacil Arandur
I would bet that fixing the bugs and bad design decisions in EVE, and updating things like the UI would do a lot more for your revenue stream than adding microtransactions for vanity items. Are people really going to want to spend extra money for things that are likely to be broken anyway?


This is a valid concern, and one that I think the CSM will keep an eye on. As long as MT vanity items don't get in the way of "regular" EVE development (in other words, they would be profitable as an independent business unit, with its own {additional} staff), then I don't think there is cause for complaint.

OTOH, if (to give an absurd example), the entire of Team Gridlock was re-assigned to create sexy underwear for Incarna, then that would be another thing entirely.

As a CSM, I (and I suspect, most of my fellow delegates) will push CCP to monitor the effects of MT on both the game and the development of the game, and CCP should be prepared to demonstrate to us (so we can confirm to you) that regular development isn't getting parasitized.

That said, for CCP to want to diversify their income model a bit is not an unreasonable thing; it may well provide some risk-reduction on income streams, which makes the future of the game more stable. But again, this needs to be monitored.

One particular concern I have is that if PLEX are used for these microtransactions, then this may increase the demand for PLEX more than it does the supply, leading to an increase in the ISK value of PLEX. This is why I have suggested a second currency for MT (µPLEX if you will) that is divorced from the ISK--PLEX connection (though if vanity items are tradable, this becomes a route to ISK).

Crazy Vania
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:24:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Crazy Vania on 22/11/2010 17:25:34
I've read that thing. There is nothing that can come of this that is good. Eve doesn't need this, and that road is just a bad road. For example, if they restrict the amount of clothing I will be able to put on my character based on how much dollars/euros I send to them, then the character creation tool sucks. I don't want it anymore.

What's more, they are trying to sugar coat this with a ridiculous activision/blizzard speech of "we're not doing it for the money, we do it for you, our dearest customer ! we're advancing with the new technologies !" I hate that kind of speeches. Blizzard wasn't like this before, and then they started talking like this, and now they are starting to suck. Starcraft 2 is already showing signs of bad gameplay due to their greed. Like inability to play with people in other world regions. Like being able to choose your name only once, and having to pay for a new one. Battle.net 2.0 is restricting lots of choices you had in battle.net 1.0, and it's all in the name of "moving with the times, giving more choices to our customers"

Don't let CCP follow the same path. If you're introducing micro-transactions because you need the money to expand, be honest about why you're doing it at least. Be honest with your customers in general, in every decision you take. Don't say " there has been concerns with affecting gameplay, so we're affecting cosmetic items only ! Yay for you, customers, see how nice we are ! " that is just a white lie. The concerns were with cosmetic items too. You have CSM members who left to point that out. I wouldn't mind this change so much if it wasn't for the dishonesty.

And yeah, I agree, remapping with a PLEX is less worse to me than character creation being hampered by real life money situations, but that's just a side note. I still don't want microtransactions in Eve. Notice how the whole blog post is EXTREMELY careful about not saying that word by the way ? That's the kind of lack of honesty I'm talking about.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:25:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Zagdul on 22/11/2010 17:27:40
Originally by: Virtuozzo
Edited by: Virtuozzo on 22/11/2010 16:46:33
Falling prey to thoughts of becoming the dinosaurs of the industry is understandable, but irrational. CCP is different, you are far enough from the industry to escape its excess, and close enough to dominate the markets you hold.

To quote someone else from a recent discussion:

EVE as an IP and CCP as a company has an effective monopoly on the sandbox MMO marketplace, a good ecological niche that is reasonably protected from predators. It is better to be the biggest minnow in the puddle than a big fish in the sea, because you are at the top of a restricted food chain. You may not get huge, but you will never get eaten.

Get to that point first, while preparing ventures to conquer further puddles and seas. Without forgetting the puddle that feeds.

Fear of big fishes, is only rational if you swim in their sea, and they are too big to enter yours.


I really wish the forums had an "Upvote" button. This summarizes so much I wanted to say.

@CCP, Please look into ways where people can use new items, not PLEX's. If you want to create a "cash shop" and truely introduce micro transactions for Vanity Items, you will directly effect the game if you use PLEX as the currency. Many people who play EVE rely on the PLEX to keep their accounts going. If you change the value of PLEX, you'll make it difficult for some people to play EVE.

In other words, you'll need a Vanity Token you can buy that can be bought and sold on the market. Please don't use PLEX's.

Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:25:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu

It‘s important to clarify that virtual goods sales isn‘t an arbitrary - or particularly greedy - decision. There is a constantly decreasing number of MMO‘s out there that don‘t incorporate virtual goods sales at some level. - games that aren't responding to this trend are dying out. Diversifying the business model allows us to offer our players the services and features they desire in ways that are conducive to how they wish to spend their entertainment dollars. The result is that we provide a wider range of options to our subscribers which, in turn, leaves us better positioned to react to future seismic shifts in the market.

If we don‘t react to the wishes of the market we will simply become the dinosaurs of the industry. And everyone knows what happens to dinosaurs. God makes them disappear. Through MAGIC.




On the contrary - consumers trying EVE Online after trying other MMO's where they have to pay for everything, will be pleasantly surprised at all they get for free. We see it all the time in my job field of Aviation - passengers hate being "nickle & dime'd" to death with tack on fees. Granted - there are some consumers that go along with it but there are some that just see it as a hassle. In summary there is a market for both.

I am sure this doesn't solve your problem of trying to diversify and increase revenue completely but I just want to point out that their is a silver lining. Also - your temporary (permanent?) solution seems to be a good one struck out of necessity IMHO. You guys are great at listening to players and I think you really nailed it down with your solution to make it "non-competetive advantage" items only. Granted we will have to come up with bigger and better vanity items but with Incarna and having your own shops/bars I don't think that will be a problem. Players will gladly pay plex/cash to have better "advertising" in game to set themselves apart from the competetion. Don't you think? Not to mention the awesomeness that is your logo on your ship (drools over my future Macharial looking like my forum signature). OR having floating billboards in space!

Cheers CCP for putting the breaks on and coming up with a creative WIN-WIN solution! This is why I play EVE.

Rikki Sals
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:28:00 - [25]
 

Thanks for the blog. ugh

HyperZerg
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:29:00 - [26]
 

So CPP wants us to pay double and don't call it greedy. Why do we pay a monthly fee atm ? That we may pay more ?

Mark726
Gallente
Inquest
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:34:00 - [27]
 

I'm happy to see that CCP is taking player and CSM concerns into account. Well done, and thanks!

iP0D
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:34:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: egegergergsdgedgege
Hello CCP

So basically you are investing a major portion of our subscription money to implement a 3D chat client where we can buy virtual clothes with even more money. Confused

You can do so, but don't expect me to renew my subscription.

Evil or Very Mad


Well, if they let people make their own clothes, and sell or license those, at least there will be fun stuff and stories to tell like husbands whining about their wives emptying their wallets on shoes now in EVE too Very Happy


Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:36:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: HyperZerg
So CPP wants us to pay double and don't call it greedy. Why do we pay a monthly fee atm ? That we may pay more ?


Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I got the impression that vanity items can be purchased both with Real Life Money, with PLEX, or with ISK of the equivalent value. You won't be paying twice as much unless you don't want to spend the ISK that you earned in-game.

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.11.22 17:48:00 - [30]
 

While I still detest any kind of microtransaction (this game is so classy without them, it's one of the reasons I joined and stuck around so long) the fact that you are limiting them to items that do not affect performance in any fashion is tolerable.

Sorry to hear you need to go down this path at all, but thanks for the compromise.


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