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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari
Deep Space Nomads Corp
Posted - 2010.11.21 08:42:00 - [1]
 

So according to the chronicle all 4 empires declared war on the Sansha nation, because of the experiments at creating "True slaves". But the motivations seems odd, why go to such lengths while Amarrs have real live slave population. It's like "Restaurant at the end of the universe" where genetically modified animals want to be eaten. Isn't it better to have "True slaves" than real slaves, isn't a willing slave preferable to unwilling. I, for one, think that Sansha was onto something great.

Umega
Solis Mensa
Posted - 2010.11.21 09:23:00 - [2]
 

Yes.. but imagine this perspective..

You are the leader of an Empire. Someone in a different, growing Nation created something that allowed for willing and improved quality soldiers. This creates two seperate issues..

One - Their army is going to get bigger and better the longer you sit around and watch.

Two - Don't you want that for yourself?

Can't exactly tell the media, we want what he is having.. well, besides Amarr. Evenly slightly tear at the fabric of 'Free Will' and people are going to ***** fit, especially the Gallente and Minmatar. So.. you create an illusion for the public before going to get the prize.

Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari
Deep Space Nomads Corp
Posted - 2010.11.21 09:56:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Umega
Yes.. but imagine this perspective..

You are the leader of an Empire. Someone in a different, growing Nation created something that allowed for willing and improved quality soldiers. This creates two seperate issues..

One - Their army is going to get bigger and better the longer you sit around and watch.

Two - Don't you want that for yourself?

Can't exactly tell the media, we want what he is having.. well, besides Amarr. Evenly slightly tear at the fabric of 'Free Will' and people are going to ***** fit, especially the Gallente and Minmatar. So.. you create an illusion for the public before going to get the prize.


1. Amarrs funded Sansha research. There's no reason for them to get involved in this conflict.
2. Caldari don't really care about slavery, they just need to beat gallente. As long as sansha is an enemy of gallente, they would ally themselves with sansha.

Esna Pitoojee
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2010.11.21 15:40:00 - [4]
 

The thing you're missing is that for many Amarrians, the point of slavery is to build a slave force who learn through hardship/serve God through hardship/serve God in general. For these people, having an entirely oblivious slave force ruins the point - how can they learn/serve/whatever if they're not even really there, but run by a machine instead.

Others disagree with this, and more agree with what you are saying: This is why you have people who like to use Transcranial Microcontrollers (a technology that, if I remember correctly, is based on the True Slave implants) to make slavery "easier" on the slaves (and of course the possibility of a revolt much less likely).

Sarell Ensa
Posted - 2010.11.21 15:56:00 - [5]
 

I always thought the issue behind the war was that Sansha's Nation was becoming a threat to the stability of the other empires and they basically made a preemptive strike...

Markus Reese
Caldari
New Eden Weekly Sentinel
Posted - 2010.11.21 16:24:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Sarell Ensa
I always thought the issue behind the war was that Sansha's Nation was becoming a threat to the stability of the other empires and they basically made a preemptive strike...
That is one of the probable reasons as well. Some felt that Kuvakei's black science was an abomination needing to be purged. Others such as the caldari probably saw a threat to stability. The amarr were believed to have been supportive of Sansha, but would have sided with the alliance to avoid being ahnililated as well.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2010.11.21 23:18:00 - [7]
 

The fiction makes clear that the Amarrians declared war on Sansha for political reasons. Just like in real life, BS humanitarian or ethical justifications for wars get cooked up after nations decide war is in their Realpolitik interest.

Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari
Deep Space Nomads Corp
Posted - 2010.11.22 07:59:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Emperor Cheney
The fiction makes clear that the Amarrians declared war on Sansha for political reasons. Just like in real life, BS humanitarian or ethical justifications for wars get cooked up after nations decide war is in their Realpolitik interest.

Political reasons? I just don't see how could Amarrs gain anything from it, they are slavers after all.

anduz
Posted - 2010.11.22 13:48:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Political reasons? I just don't see how could Amarrs gain anything from it, they are slavers after all.


I'm sorry but I think it's pretty obvious why the Amarrians would have a conflict of interests with a guy who enslaves true Amarrs, has made up his own crazy religion and thinks of himself as the messiah. :p

Sure they're slavers themselves but why would that keep them from attacking him?

Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari
Deep Space Nomads Corp
Posted - 2010.11.22 15:45:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: anduz
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Political reasons? I just don't see how could Amarrs gain anything from it, they are slavers after all.


I'm sorry but I think it's pretty obvious why the Amarrians would have a conflict of interests with a guy who enslaves true Amarrs, has made up his own crazy religion and thinks of himself as the messiah. :p

Sure they're slavers themselves but why would that keep them from attacking him?

He enslaved true amarrs? I though he only did it with minmatar slaves.

Mister Screwball
Minmatar
True Slave Foundations
Posted - 2010.11.22 16:16:00 - [11]
 

From what i can remember Amarr was one of the last empires to join the war and they only did it because they were left with little choice. I think it was sort of a your either against Nation or with them

Anyura
Posted - 2010.11.22 18:32:00 - [12]
 

A link to a very old, very detailed bit of info on the Nation:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=703000/

....and before anyone says "It's not canon", it damn well should be.

Cmdr Baxter
The Synenose Accord
Celestial Imperative
Posted - 2010.11.23 03:31:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Anyura
A link to a very old, very detailed bit of info on the Nation:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=703000/

....and before anyone says "It's not canon", it damn well should be.

The grammar itself, and wording in numerous places, clearly indicate that the document was written as some sort of pro-Nation propaganda piece. While interesting, I hesitate to accept it as "undisputed canon."

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2010.11.23 03:55:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
The fiction makes clear that the Amarrians declared war on Sansha for political reasons. Just like in real life, BS humanitarian or ethical justifications for wars get cooked up after nations decide war is in their Realpolitik interest.

Political reasons? I just don't see how could Amarrs gain anything from it, they are slavers after all.


To not look bad while the other 3 empires declare war on Sansha for more-or-less humanitarian and self defense needs. Amarr sees themselves as being in a vulnerable position.

Potential derail: aside from game balance, there's no reason for Amarr and Caldari to be aligned. We have 3 free trading empires, and the guys who value free trade over all else align to the religious wackos? And it's not like Amarr has some sort of future-oil to explain why anyone would want to be buddy-buddy with them.

mjolnir feaw
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.23 11:38:00 - [15]
 

Gallente's and Minmatar's reasons were probably ethical as well as realpolitik (especially Gallente)

For the Empire, it seems to me it was more like a war of religion: Sansha claims to be the messiah. But amarrian religion dictates that only the emperor is the bridge between God and Mankind. So Sansha is an heretic, so to speak.

State's reason to go to war looks a little more cloudy... Economic/territory threat? favor to an ally? Preemptive strike? Something else that we never heard about and never will? I'd go for the first one but your guess as good as mine.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2010.11.26 10:14:00 - [16]
 

I think when all is said and done, there is going to be a lot more to the relationship between Sansha, the Amarr, these wormholes, and the "super weapon".

I would not call the Amarr and Sansha enemies, but I won't call them friends.



GIGAR
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.26 13:10:00 - [17]
 

It's actually pretty simple.

The Empires were scared of the Sansha Nation.
At it's peak, Sansha Nation could rival any of the 4 Empires (and possible have a *very* good chance of winning) if a war would erupt.

Considering the rather large growth of the Nation, I can imagine it would be very possible for the Nation to, at one point, rival all of the Empires in Union, creating a Fifth Empire, far bigger than any of the previous.
The reasons why the 4 Empires wanted to avoid this is rather obvious.

The Amarr weren't really opposed to the Nation as far as I've understood - it was just the pressure from the Gallante, Minmatar and Caldari Empires that were too big.

IF the Amarr had joined up with the Nation, it's entirely possible that the outcome would have favored the Nation - Nation DID pose a CONSIDERABLE amount of resistance (lasting several months before succumbing), considering that the 4 Empires waged an all-out war on them.

Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari
Deep Space Nomads Corp
Posted - 2010.11.27 10:41:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: GIGAR
It's actually pretty simple.

The Empires were scared of the Sansha Nation.
At it's peak, Sansha Nation could rival any of the 4 Empires (and possible have a *very* good chance of winning) if a war would erupt.

Considering the rather large growth of the Nation, I can imagine it would be very possible for the Nation to, at one point, rival all of the Empires in Union, creating a Fifth Empire, far bigger than any of the previous.
The reasons why the 4 Empires wanted to avoid this is rather obvious.

The Amarr weren't really opposed to the Nation as far as I've understood - it was just the pressure from the Gallante, Minmatar and Caldari Empires that were too big.

IF the Amarr had joined up with the Nation, it's entirely possible that the outcome would have favored the Nation - Nation DID pose a CONSIDERABLE amount of resistance (lasting several months before succumbing), considering that the 4 Empires waged an all-out war on them.


Then why didn't Amarr ally themselves with sansha? Caldari could have allied with them too. Only Gallente and Minmatar had ethical and political reasons to fight against sansha. Caldari or Amarr would have benefited, probably winning a war against the other empires. After all, the current Caldari/Amarr alliance is not one of friendship, but rather hatred of Gallente.

KaiserSoze434
Posted - 2010.11.29 07:08:00 - [19]
 

The Amarr are a fundamentally religious people. A flawed religion, but they are fanatics. Sansha proclaimed himself a living God. Surely you see that conflict was inevitable? Not to mention that Sansha's Nation was, and is, ravenous in its expansion. Do you think the Amarr, no matter how initially sympathetic, could possibly fail to see that as well?

Of course there is also the supremely practical reason. If you helped create what is viewed as perhaps the greatest monstrosity in known space wouldn't it be in your interest to insure that what you have wrought is eliminated as completely as possible to hide the full extent of your own involvement? What better way to do so, and prove your own "outrage" than by joining the crusade?

GIGAR
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.29 09:12:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Then why didn't Amarr ally themselves with sansha? Caldari could have allied with them too. Only Gallente and Minmatar had ethical and political reasons to fight against sansha. Caldari or Amarr would have benefited, probably winning a war against the other empires. After all, the current Caldari/Amarr alliance is not one of friendship, but rather hatred of Gallente.

What the Sansha Nation stands for goes against the basic principles of the Caldari State - GREED.
Should they support Sansha, the States entire political structure could collapse, which would (probably) be bad in the eyes of certain State leaders.

The Amarr Empire had to chose a side, and they chose to join the 3 other Empires - I'm guessing due to the (probably not very minor) trade going on between the Empires.


Originally by: KaiserSoze434
The Amarr are a fundamentally religious people. A flawed religion, but they are fanatics. Sansha proclaimed himself a living God. Surely you see that conflict was inevitable? Not to mention that Sansha's Nation was, and is, ravenous in its expansion. Do you think the Amarr, no matter how initially sympathetic, could possibly fail to see that as well?

Of course there is also the supremely practical reason. If you helped create what is viewed as perhaps the greatest monstrosity in known space wouldn't it be in your interest to insure that what you have wrought is eliminated as completely as possible to hide the full extent of your own involvement? What better way to do so, and prove your own "outrage" than by joining the crusade?

It is important to note that Sansha Kuvakei did NOT view himself as a God, but merely a Messiah. One person to show the way to the Promised Land, so to speak.
While I'm not very educated in the cultural shades of the Amarr, I would say that it's certainly not impossible that the Amarr could accept a guide; The only opposition could be the Royal Amarr Heir, but given their support... Well.

The Sansha "monstrosities" is only a matter of perspective.
The effectiveness of True Slaves can certainly not be questioned.
There is only one, ONE single question that is relevant in the case of the Sansha Nation:

Did the people leave when they heard of the True Slaves, or did they leave when the 4 Empires invaded the Sansha Nation?

Roga Dracor
Caldari
Mental Disorders Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.29 16:10:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Roga Dracor on 29/11/2010 16:12:08
The Emperess is the first slave of God, not Sansha Kuvakei.

Interestingly enough, Sansha is not the first charismatic, utopian dreaming sociopath that the Jove have had an interest in. If the Jove have an interest, it is quite likely the Empires do, as well.

From Forsaken Ruins;

Until this day, the fate of Sebastien Moreau had been unknown. By blind luck, Mattias had unwittingly stumbled
across the final piece of the puzzle, and Veniel would have paid handsomely for it had the bounty hunter's
situation been any less dire. He explained that Moreau's corpse held enormous scientific value to the Jovians.
Sebastion Moreau founded a Utopian Society in Immensea, became megalomaniac and was apparently assassinated after two attempts. Venial turned the 69 Immensea stations, very technologically advanced, over to Concord. Did they strip them? Very reminiscent of Sansha's Nation.

The Amarrians living within this society were slaughtered for their religious beliefs.

There could be other reasons the Amarr oppose Nation.


 

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