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Gimboid
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.20 17:22:00 - [1]
 

Here's an idea to allow us to effectively solve the 'learning skills' problem that also covers several of the aspects not brought up by other posters.

The Problems
  • Learning Skills are Boring

  • New players do not enjoy spending weeks training them

  • Simply removing them would require a skill reimbursement to all current players

  • Removing them and increasing base attributes would make it easier for character abuse, such as RMT users (being able to train viable characters much faster/cheaper), abusive characters (such as for exploitation, too easy to create 'trade alts' 'cyno alts' industrial alts etc etc). More people would do this than buy secondary accounts, and would also impact the sale of characters, things that all ultimately impact CCP's profit


Solution
Remove the blank 'Learning' Skills, incorporate its bonus into base Attributes. Change all of the current learning skills into new, ultra-passive skills that instead display on the attributes screen.

When your character trains an Intelligence/Memory skill, They at the same time train the Intellect/Memory learning skill at a far-reduced rate.

When you train enough of an INT/MEM skill that you fully train the base skills, you will automatically begin to train the advanced version as well.

This means:
The current bonus of learning skills remains exactly the same. Current players still fully benefit from the previous time they have invested in training their learning skills.

New players get to train the skills they want to and will enjoy training, whilst slowly over time passively increasing the speed in which they train those skills

The Emphasis is still on time investment, the rate at which the new passive learning skills train can be tuned so that they effectively give the same benefit as players who train learning skills now.

Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari
Deep Space Nomads Corp
Posted - 2010.11.20 17:25:00 - [2]
 

I like this idea.

VE3DVY
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.20 17:25:00 - [3]
 

This sounds like a "Features and Ideas Discussion" sort of thing to me.

Best of luck with your idea, OP.

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2010.11.20 17:32:00 - [4]
 

optional skills are optional

no one is forced to :

- fly dramiels
- train for titans
- undock in hulks
- train learning skills

sure you can chose this things, but it is a sandbox and no shotguns are held to your head to do such

there really isn't a problem here. I'd like to see t3 type learning skills added to to speed up regaining skills lost when your ship pops.


Cobalt Sixty
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.11.20 17:45:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Gimboid
  • Removing them and increasing base attributes would make it easier for character abuse, such as RMT users (being able to train viable characters much faster/cheaper), abusive characters (such as for exploitation, too easy to create 'trade alts' 'cyno alts' industrial alts etc etc). More people would do this than buy secondary accounts, and would also impact the sale of characters, things that all ultimately impact CCP's profit


... notsureifserious.jpg (too lazy to link the appropriate image)

Kaalen
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.20 17:50:00 - [6]
 

Learning skills are not optional. They're just not.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.20 17:50:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Cobalt Sixty
Originally by: Gimboid
  • Removing them and increasing base attributes would make it easier for character abuse, such as RMT users (being able to train viable characters much faster/cheaper), abusive characters (such as for exploitation, too easy to create 'trade alts' 'cyno alts' industrial alts etc etc). More people would do this than buy secondary accounts, and would also impact the sale of characters, things that all ultimately impact CCP's profit


... notsureifserious.jpg (too lazy to link the appropriate image)

I'm heavily anti-learning skills, but he does have a point; When you make training easier (which learning skill removal and attribute replacement does), then that goes for everybody, not just the newbies. You'd probably see a rise in utility alts.

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2010.11.20 17:54:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 20/11/2010 17:54:49
Originally by: Spurty
optional skills are optional

no one is forced to :

- fly dramiels
- train for titans
- undock in hulks
- train learning skills

sure you can chose this things, but it is a sandbox and no shotguns are held to your head to do such

there really isn't a problem here. I'd like to see t3 type learning skills added to to speed up regaining skills lost when your ship pops.




Good thing none of that addresses any of the problems the OP listed. The fact that you don't percieve that as a problem doesn't remove the very real affects they have on peoples behavior. Behaviour that is constantly reducing the amount of newish players that subscribe to EVE. If you feel there is some benefit they provide for EVE, that couldn't be achieved by more new player friendly and less boring and time consuming ways, feel free to post your views.

True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
Posted - 2010.11.20 18:01:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: True Sight on 20/11/2010 18:01:11
gief

Gimboid
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.20 18:03:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Spurty
optional skills are optional

no one is forced to :

- fly dramiels
- train for titans
- undock in hulks
- train learning skills



You're right, but new players are disadvantaged if they don't train them like everyone else, just like a miner would be disadvantaged if he didn't train for a hulk. Ultimately lots of people feel the same way, as ever since CCP added the functionality to reimburse skillpoints en-masse, people have been begging for it.


Originally by: Cobalt Sixty
... notsureifserious.jpg (too lazy to link the appropriate image)


Totally, you have to look at everything from more than your own personal perspective, sure you would personally like to train your own cyno alts faster etc, maybe you'd even like to save paying isk to buy a freighter alt off the character Bazaar, CCP is ultimately a business, out to make money and the more profit they make the more they can afford to support us, game changes that reduce the desire of paid service = bad.

Cobalt Sixty
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.11.20 18:03:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: Cobalt Sixty
Originally by: Gimboid
  • Removing them and increasing base attributes would make it easier for character abuse, such as RMT users (being able to train viable characters much faster/cheaper), abusive characters (such as for exploitation, too easy to create 'trade alts' 'cyno alts' industrial alts etc etc). More people would do this than buy secondary accounts, and would also impact the sale of characters, things that all ultimately impact CCP's profit


... notsureifserious.jpg (too lazy to link the appropriate image)

I'm heavily anti-learning skills, but he does have a point; When you make training easier (which learning skill removal and attribute replacement does), then that goes for everybody, not just the newbies. You'd probably see a rise in utility alts.

And surely, EVE will die

( Sarcasm ^ )

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.20 18:13:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Cobalt Sixty
And surely, EVE will die

( Sarcasm ^ )

Not the point.

You should always take into account and acknowledge both sides of the argument. There's hard facts, and then there's opinions. The trick comes from separating the two. I may share the belief that removing learning skills won't kill Eve, but that doesn't mean I should turn a blind eye to the consequences of doing so.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.11.20 18:16:00 - [13]
 

tl;dr getting obsessed with what others are doing is never healthy.

Jennifer Starling
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.20 18:20:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 20/11/2010 18:25:03
Originally by: Kaalen
Learning skills are not optional. They're just not.

/agreed. It's as optional as learning to speak, read and write.

Originally by: Gimboid
Solution
Remove the blank 'Learning' Skills, incorporate its bonus into base Attributes. Change all of the current learning skills into new, ultra-passive skills that instead display on the attributes screen.

When your character trains an Intelligence/Memory skill, They at the same time train the Intellect/Memory learning skill at a far-reduced rate.

When you train enough of an INT/MEM skill that you fully train the base skills, you will automatically begin to train the advanced version as well.


It's an ok idea. As long as it doesn't make training even slower than it already is.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.11.20 18:25:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: Kaalen
Learning skills are not optional. They're just not.

/agreed. It's as optional as learning to speak, read and write.


Well I'm sorry but they ARE optional. I'm training up a hauler alt (JF5,JDC5 etc). What does he need Charisma or Memory for?

The mistake most people make is that training up one character per account is the best plan. In the first 12 months it isn't, so THINK about what you want a character to do and if its not your main then it doesn't need all the learning skills trained.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.20 18:26:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: Cobalt Sixty
Originally by: Gimboid
  • Removing them and increasing base attributes would make it easier for character abuse, such as RMT users (being able to train viable characters much faster/cheaper), abusive characters (such as for exploitation, too easy to create 'trade alts' 'cyno alts' industrial alts etc etc). More people would do this than buy secondary accounts, and would also impact the sale of characters, things that all ultimately impact CCP's profit


... notsureifserious.jpg (too lazy to link the appropriate image)

I'm heavily anti-learning skills, but he does have a point; When you make training easier (which learning skill removal and attribute replacement does), then that goes for everybody, not just the newbies. You'd probably see a rise in utility alts.


Well with that logic you can add a month period in which you cannot train skills after making a new character. Since it hurts everyone it probably also hurt those who deserve to be hurted...


This 'solution' isnt in any way better than the standard solution, except for those who only train skills in a very narrow area, which is pretty much exclusively done by alts.

Jennifer Starling
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.20 18:29:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Othran
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: Kaalen
Learning skills are not optional. They're just not.

/agreed. It's as optional as learning to speak, read and write.


Well I'm sorry but they ARE optional. I'm training up a hauler alt (JF5,JDC5 etc). What does he need Charisma or Memory for?

The mistake most people make is that training up one character per account is the best plan. In the first 12 months it isn't, so THINK about what you want a character to do and if its not your main then it doesn't need all the learning skills trained.

Where did I say you can't live without being able to understand language?

Charisma is kind of an odd one out (although most chars use it) and alts is not what people play the game for, they're exceptions.

Gimboid
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.20 18:34:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Othran
Well I'm sorry but they ARE optional. I'm training up a hauler alt (JF5,JDC5 etc). What does he need Charisma or Memory for?


Ok, so you've just completely contradicted the entire point. The learning skills are still effectively compulsory, even for your hauler alt, you have to spend time training boring learning skills over actually training the skills you want to.

Its compulsory as much as inputting your entire plan into evemon says "260 days" then when you optimise with learning skills comes down to "200 days".

Brian Ballsack
Posted - 2010.11.20 19:26:00 - [19]
 

Quote:
The Problems


I got this far, there is no problem.

Gimboid
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.20 20:43:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Brian Ballsack
I got this far, there is no problem.


And this is of course fact, and not just your single small minded troll opinion, because you of course know everything.

Memorya
Posted - 2010.11.20 22:10:00 - [21]
 


CCP:

Make this happen!

Betty Boom
Caldari
SPECTRE Syndicate
Posted - 2010.11.20 23:28:00 - [22]
 

I would do a bit diffent :

ArrowRemove all learing skills.
ArrowAdd all earlier leraning skills to the standard attribute points.

ArrowGive for every skill point learn in learning 2 skillpoints to learn fatser by 100% means if i have 5 millions sp in Learning i get 10 million sp on 100%. Refund the removed skills with npc price of Insurance (skill lost)

Two sides are happy. New players learn only usefull skills and old vet can learn something useful for the 5,25 Million SP. I think it is not acceptble for new players that they need to learn several month only attribute skills.


Running missions
Posted - 2010.11.20 23:33:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Gimboid
Here's an idea to allow us to effectively solve the 'learning skills' problem that also covers several of the aspects not brought up by other posters.

The Problems
  • Learning Skills are Boring

  • New players do not enjoy spending weeks training them

  • Simply removing them would require a skill reimbursement to all current players

  • Removing them and increasing base attributes would make it easier for character abuse, such as RMT users (being able to train viable characters much faster/cheaper), abusive characters (such as for exploitation, too easy to create 'trade alts' 'cyno alts' industrial alts etc etc). More people would do this than buy secondary accounts, and would also impact the sale of characters, things that all ultimately impact CCP's profit


Solution
Remove the blank 'Learning' Skills, incorporate its bonus into base Attributes. Change all of the current learning skills into new, ultra-passive skills that instead display on the attributes screen.

When your character trains an Intelligence/Memory skill, They at the same time train the Intellect/Memory learning skill at a far-reduced rate.

When you train enough of an INT/MEM skill that you fully train the base skills, you will automatically begin to train the advanced version as well.

This means:
The current bonus of learning skills remains exactly the same. Current players still fully benefit from the previous time they have invested in training their learning skills.

New players get to train the skills they want to and will enjoy training, whilst slowly over time passively increasing the speed in which they train those skills

The Emphasis is still on time investment, the rate at which the new passive learning skills train can be tuned so that they effectively give the same benefit as players who train learning skills now.

why is the solution to learning skills in the problem section, remove them give us base stats, its like they were never there. its a good thing people will be making alts, and dont forget many people would probably make PVP alts, so the lowsec yartards will quit crying about lack of targets, not to mention, more pvp = more ship loss = more sinks for minerals


TL;Dr remove the skills add to attributes reimburse everyone for training the worst skillset in eve.

Lost Greybeard
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.21 00:52:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Kaalen
Learning skills are not optional. They're just not.


Even if the skills aren't optional (and I'd debate that, I've met players with no learning trained at all that seem to be perfectly happy), wasting loads of time on them are not.

The difference between 5/5 training speed and 4/3 training speed is something like 5 to 10%, for instance: useful, but hardly game-breaking. And getting 4/3 on an attribute only takes two to three days even outside of the 100% boost period.

The only reason I could ever see for going 5/5 on everything is if you don't know how to use remap, in which case you have no business playing Eve.

Jennifer Starling
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.21 01:17:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Lost Greybeard
Originally by: Kaalen
Learning skills are not optional. They're just not.


Even if the skills aren't optional (and I'd debate that, I've met players with no learning trained at all that seem to be perfectly happy), wasting loads of time on them are not.

The difference between 5/5 training speed and 4/3 training speed is something like 5 to 10%, for instance: useful, but hardly game-breaking. And getting 4/3 on an attribute only takes two to three days even outside of the 100% boost period.

The only reason I could ever see for going 5/5 on everything is if you don't know how to use remap, in which case you have no business playing Eve.

Oh get lost, ye old Greybeard! Wait .. you already are .... Cool

Well with 0/0 in all learning skills you get 7-8 million SP a year .. I can't imagine people will be very happy when they still fly their crappy t1 cruiser while the rest missions L4s in a T2 fit battleship or roams in their fully T2 fit HAC?

I fully agree 5/5 is by no means neccessary, especially if you're not sure whether you're going to play long enough to make it count. 4/3 though is pretty much a no-brainer. So yes, 5/5 is optional but no learning skills at all is pretty much serious self-gimping.

Arakash Mond
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2010.11.21 01:59:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Arakash Mond on 21/11/2010 02:00:41
I've got a few questions for all the folks that keep whining about learning skills.
What if CCP gave all starting players 19 in each attribute and kept the learning skills so that the new training max would be 29?
Would new players still need to learn the new max learning skills to be able to compete or would 19 in each attribute be enough? Would all the new players that keep leaving Eve because of learning skills stay because they have 19 in all their attributes? Or would they leave because now they don't have 29 at day one in each attribute?
Arakash

Gimboid
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.21 17:03:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Gimboid on 21/11/2010 17:06:52
Originally by: Running missions
why is the solution to learning skills in the problem section, remove them give us base stats, its like they were never there. its a good thing people will be making alts, and dont forget many people would probably make PVP alts, so the lowsec yartards will quit crying about lack of targets, not to mention, more pvp = more ship loss = more sinks for minerals


TL;Dr remove the skills add to attributes reimburse everyone for training the worst skillset in eve.


How do you bold something, stating its the solution that points out multiple issues? Do you really think that when making decisions like these, CCP Don't have to consider things like how it would impact RMT? simply put, its not as easy as just removing the learning skills and making everyone train as fast as if they already had them, it would make new characters, especially with the 100% bonus far too potent.

Reducing interesting in character trading/selling, or buying additional accounts is ultimately against CCP's wishes, good luck convincing them to spend time and developer dollars on a feature that will make them less immediate money.


Originally by: Arakash Mond
Edited by: Arakash Mond on 21/11/2010 02:00:41
I've got a few questions for all the folks that keep whining about learning skills.
What if CCP gave all starting players 19 in each attribute and kept the learning skills so that the new training max would be 29?
Would new players still need to learn the new max learning skills to be able to compete or would 19 in each attribute be enough? Would all the new players that keep leaving Eve because of learning skills stay because they have 19 in all their attributes? Or would they leave because now they don't have 29 at day one in each attribute?
Arakash


Thats a difficult one, you would have to consider how that would impact skill training as a whole, thats an insane training increase, your talking about changing 60+ day titan skills into ~40 days. Ultimately it wouldn't change people from 'having' to train learning skills

- Create new account, get EVEmon, decide what you want to do
- Build a skillplan for what you want
- It will tell you that it will take 260 days, but if you train learning skills to 5/4 or whatever, it will only take 185 days.
- Thus, player is once again left sitting there training boring and unfun skills.

KaarBaak
Minmatar
Seatec Astronomy
Posted - 2010.11.21 17:40:00 - [28]
 

Easiest solution to this perceived problem: remove the skill books from the game. Make no other changes.

Going forward, all players on equal footing and vets have perma training bonus. Win-win for minimal effort on CCPs part.

KB

Brian Ballsack
Posted - 2010.11.21 18:24:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Gimboid
Originally by: Brian Ballsack
I got this far, there is no problem.

because you of course know everything.


thanks :)
Cataclysms out soon, you can toddle off back there.

Gimboid
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.21 20:49:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Gimboid on 21/11/2010 20:50:48

Originally by: Brian Ballsack
thanks :)
Cataclysms out soon, you can toddle off back there.


Its a good job people like you really don't get to make the decisions as you don't have a clue. tbh, I think all the WoW public wow haters are just like other people with stupid prejudices, you've probably played a lot more WoW than I ever did

p.s. I've probably been playing eve and been around longer than you. look at this crappy alts creation date for example and tell me you've got a better understanding of this game :)


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