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Alain Octirant
Gallente
Federal Nationalist Party
Posted - 2010.11.17 20:59:00 - [1]
 

|The following message will begin appearing in paid advertisements in Viriette media markets concurrent to this GalNet posting.|

When a people are reduced to a situation wherein everything they hold dear is at stake, it is not only acceptable, but noble, for an individual to offer to the public anything they may think has a chance to ward off the impending danger. They should neither be restrained by fear that what they offer may be unpopular any more than a doctor is restrained from prescribing a salutary medicine for fear that it will be unpalatable to his patient.

Some have been made to believe that nothing short of attempting the life of the President or fighting the Federal military can amount to high treason or rebellion. If you are one of those, I beg you to apply to a good lawyer and ask him what kind of offense it is for a body of men to assemble and forcibly obstruct the course of justice or the conduct of the Federation Navy. Ask what sort of offense it is to conspire in hidden places with foreign agents who would tear down all liberty in the name of their collective profit. Ask what sort of offense it is for a number of men to take arms and march with the professed design of opposing the Union and establishing, without authority, sovereign government where before there existed the rule of law under and an oath of unity. Ask, and if perchance you are one to have been active in such things, his answer will harrow your soul.

I wish these things were consigned to history, but alas they are upon us as we speak. The shaft is already sped and the utmost exertion is necessary to prevent the blow. You already feel the effects of anarchy. Confidence, affection, peace, the sweetness of human life, is replaced by mistrust, hatred, and uproar. The prosperous sciences of industry are neglected for cabaling and cries for secession. The capsuleer "front" purchased to safeguard your skies is primed to turn against the flag of Union and aid its enemies, as it has already done before. I suspect many of you have been induced to join in these measures, or to keep your opposition quiet, out of a belief that the Federation would or could not exert itself sufficiently to subdue Intaki.

Consider, however closely you may cling to the opinion that the Senate has no right to legislate for you, the other people represented by that body believe the contrary just as firmly. Can you indulge now a moment's thought that the Union would consent to entire constellations dismembering themselves from its body and becoming distinct states? For what did we lavish our best blood and treasure in the liberation of Placid? Was it to raise up a rival state and empower our enemies? Will you consider in the aftermath that had you been prudent enough to confine your opposition within certain limits, you might have stood a chance of succeeding once more?

I mention these things, my friends, that you may know how people reason upon the subject in Villore, and to convince you that you are much deceived if you believe the Federation will accede to the claims of the secessionists. Those who would speak for you and profess to speak with all your voices have bid the Union defiance, and the longest sword must carry it, unless you change your measures.

Associations are now forming in several parts of Viriette in support of the Federation government and mutual prosperity. Whenever you see the eagle banner raised, flock to it. For has not the Union been as mild and equitable in Intaki as in other parts of its extensive territory? Has she not been a nursing mother to you from the days of your infancy as a spacefaring people? Has she not been indulgent to a fault? And will future generations not be amazed when they are told that this present distraction took its rise from the fame-hungry philosopher Hawke's offense at the exercise of my party's right to petition?

Syyl'ara
Gallente
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2010.11.18 00:48:00 - [2]
 

If you have evidence of a treasonous conspiracy for collective profit, please do share it.

Because you wouldn't dare engage in libel or other kinds of slander, right?

Belfelmalak
Posted - 2010.11.18 08:09:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Belfelmalak on 18/11/2010 08:11:11
Such is the hypocrisy of the so called democratic peoples. The speak of such things as liberty and freedom, daring to look down their noses even at such an ancient civilization as the Empire and claim to be superior due to their egalitarian society.

But what happens to their belief in liberty and self determination when it conflicts with their own self serving interests? Were the Caldari free to find their own way? Are the Intaki?


No, they are labeled as rebels, traitors and terrorists and threatened with treason for following the basic tenants of their own philosophy.

Such nations are built on a weak foundation of half truths and lies and will slowly fracture and split as each world realizes that it shares no common purpose with the next.

We in the Empire share a strong conviction in our Faith and our Empress, whether we are of Amarrin blood, Khanid or even Ammatar is less important than our shared belief. It is just such beliefs that make us strong and the lack of it that is tearing this Federation apart one system at a time.

James Syagrius
Gallente
Advent Ltd.
Posted - 2010.11.18 20:25:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Belfelmalak
Edited by: Belfelmalak on 18/11/2010 08:11:11
Such is the hypocrisy of the so called democratic peoples. The speak of such things as liberty and freedom, daring to look down their noses even at such an ancient civilization as the Empire and claim to be superior due to their egalitarian society.

But what happens to their belief in liberty and self determination when it conflicts with their own self serving interests? Were the Caldari free to find their own way? Are the Intaki?


No, they are labeled as rebels, traitors and terrorists and threatened with treason for following the basic tenants of their own philosophy.

Such nations are built on a weak foundation of half truths and lies and will slowly fracture and split as each world realizes that it shares no common purpose with the next.

We in the Empire share a strong conviction in our Faith and our Empress, whether we are of Amarrin blood, Khanid or even Ammatar is less important than our shared belief. It is just such beliefs that make us strong and the lack of it that is tearing this Federation apart one system at a time.



Dear Mr. Belfelmalak.

I propose a test!

I will call the President of the Federation a fool and a lair publicly, even though I donít necessary think its trueÖ

You do the same in your ever so benevolent Empire about the Clone Queen... ohh I mean the Emperess of course...

Then letís see who gets shot by the authorities firstÖ

Syn Callibri
Minmatar
21st Eridani Lighthorse
Posted - 2010.11.18 20:43:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Belfelmalak
Edited by: Belfelmalak on 18/11/2010 08:11:11
Such is the hypocrisy of the so called democratic peoples. The speak of such things as liberty and freedom, daring to look down their noses even at such an ancient civilization as the Empire and claim to be superior due to their egalitarian society.

But what happens to their belief in liberty and self determination when it conflicts with their own self serving interests? Were the Caldari free to find their own way? Are the Intaki?


No, they are labeled as rebels, traitors and terrorists and threatened with treason for following the basic tenants of their own philosophy.

Such nations are built on a weak foundation of half truths and lies and will slowly fracture and split as each world realizes that it shares no common purpose with the next.

We in the Empire share a strong conviction in our Faith and our Empress, whether we are of Amarrin blood, Khanid or even Ammatar is less important than our shared belief. It is just such beliefs that make us strong and the lack of it that is tearing this Federation apart one system at a time.



An Amarrian loyalist talking about someone else's hypocrisy? Now THAT is funny! Laughing



Saxon Hawke
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2010.11.18 22:20:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Alain Octirant
|The following message will begin appearing in paid advertisements in Viriette media markets concurrent to this GalNet posting.|


Interesting that you plan to advertise throughout the Viriette Constellation, but address your message only to the people of Intaki Prime. Why not also to the colonies of Dubaana, Lagaana, Sajha, Rohaanar, Ud'har, Duureanta, Kapda and Maatrukaanan?

Perhaps it is an attempt to sow discord amongst the Placid Intaki? Are the Nationalists trying to set us against one another?

Originally by: Alain Octirant
When a people are reduced to a situation wherein everything they hold dear is at stake, it is not only acceptable, but noble, for an individual to offer to the public anything they may think has a chance to ward off the impending danger.


So you agree then, that the Intaki living in the Placid Region have grievances? Then why not address those issues rather than carry on with all this pomp?

Originally by: Alain Octirant
I beg you to apply to a good lawyer and ask him what kind of offense it is for a body of men to assemble and forcibly obstruct the course of justice or the conduct of the Federation Navy.


I donít recall that anyone has used force to obstruct anything. The Intaki Assembly exercised its just authority in denying the Navy access to a system under its control. The Assembly also asked for a ceasefire that was willingly agreed to by pilots of the FDU. In neither case was force applied.


Originally by: Alain Octirant
Ask what sort of offense it is for a number of men to take arms and march with the professed design of opposing the Union and establishing, without authority, sovereign government where before there existed the rule of law under and an oath of unity.


I would remind you that the Intaki were an independent, space-faring and colonizing people BEFORE the foundation of the Gallente Federation. The Intaki joined as a free people and as a free people they have the inalienable right to withdraw from such unions as no longer provide for their best interests.

Originally by: Alain Octirant
The capsuleer "front" purchased to safeguard your skies is primed to turn against the flag of Union and aid its enemies, as it has already done before.


The Intaki people know well enough whom we seek to aid. You may try to paint us in a false light, but they know the ILF (and by extension the Intaki Prosperity Initiative) have created a prosperous trade hub, sponsored a relief effort collecting much needed supplies for planetary populations and continue to operate an orbital shipyard employing thousands of Intaki.

Originally by: Alain Octirant
Those who would speak for you and profess to speak with all your voices have bid the Union defiance, and the longest sword must carry it, unless you change your measures.


Everyone should note here that it is only you, Chairman, that rattles the saber. Your message becomes clear: Obey or be beaten into submission. Slaves are made in such ways, not allies.

Originally by: Alain Octirant
And will future generations not be amazed when they are told that this present distraction took its rise from the fame-hungry philosopher Hawke's offense at the exercise of my party's right to petition?


In joining with the Gallente in their vision of a unified Federation, the Intaki gave up most, but not all, of their sovereignty. And when our leaders exercise what little self-determination they have remaining, you jealously pounce on them and try to wrest that power away. Yours was not a petition, sir, but a usurpation and an act which is an intolerable affront to a free people.

Alain Octirant
Gallente
Federal Nationalist Party
Posted - 2010.11.18 22:46:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Saxon Hawke
denying the Navy access to a system under its control

An action denounced by patriotic Gallenteans everywhere as is within their right as free people and as was proportionate to the offense. In reaction, you would declare independence from the Union. Surely, that is also a proportionate response...

Originally by: Saxon Hawke
I would remind you that the Intaki were an independent, space-faring and colonizing people BEFORE the foundation of the Gallente Federation.


I would remind you that the Intaki became an independent, space-faring and colonizing people AFTER the arrival of the Gallente.

Originally by: Saxon Hawke
the inalienable right to withdraw from such unions as no longer provide for their best interests


You truly are an anarchist. You treat the Union as if it were a teenager's tryst, and the parties are free to go their separate ways once they've become bored of the affair. To you the Federal Charter was merely a bashful kiss, a temporary note of affection, easily forgotten when a new partner courts. When in fact it was the binding marriage of many great peoples into a single body nobler and stronger than the sum of its parts. Should that the people of the Intaki Assembly worlds suffer divorce from that body for your lack of fidelity.

Vendrin
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2010.11.18 22:50:00 - [8]
 

The problem with giving people the freedom to choose their government, is they may very well choose a different government.
It seems the Federation so vaunted freedom only lasts as long as you make choices they approve of, as shown by their recent responses and the responses that led to the first war between the Caldari and Federation.

Alain Octirant
Gallente
Federal Nationalist Party
Posted - 2010.11.18 22:59:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Vendrin
The problem with giving people the freedom to choose their government, is they may very well choose a different government.
It seems the Federation so vaunted freedom only lasts as long as you make choices they approve of, as shown by their recent responses and the responses that led to the first war between the Caldari and Federation.

Your understanding of political freedom and democratic government is vacuous, Mr Latanis, but this is understandable as I imagine you were educated by the State.

The people of the Federated Union are free to choose a different government or even a different form of government by means of our vast electoral system. A single party within that Union, or any portion under a majority of the whole, however, is not free to cleave itself from the greater portion and establish its own government. That is not an act of democracy, it is an act of rebellion.

Saxon Hawke
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2010.11.18 23:00:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Alain Octirant
I would remind you that the Intaki became an independent, space-faring and colonizing people AFTER the arrival of the Gallente.


And for this we are forever beholden to our Gallente overlords? I should think not.

Originally by: Alain Octirant
You truly are an anarchist.

There is a saying among the Sahjan colonists that "there's no government like no government." I, however, do not subscribe to that notion and entrust my governance fully into the capable hands of the duly elected Intaki Assembly.

Originally by: Alain Octirant
You treat the Union as if it were a teenager's tryst,... when in fact it was [a] binding marriage.


An interesting analogy, Chairman. Let me ask you this, should your wife tell you that she wished a divorce from you, would you raise your hand to her and threaten her with the sword for her dissent from your rule as her rightful master? Should your children tell you that they wish to leave your home to make their own fortunes, would you call them enemies and see them bloodied for their ingratitude?

Alain Octirant
Gallente
Federal Nationalist Party
Posted - 2010.11.18 23:26:00 - [11]
 

My family life has as much to do with this matter as your own, Hawke. That is, nothing at all.

Mammal Tafren
Gallente
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2010.11.19 01:02:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Alain Octirant
My family life has as much to do with this matter as your own, Hawke. That is, nothing at all.


By blithely pretending that you don't understand the metaphorical significance of the Suresha's question, Chairmain Octirant, you have neatly avoided having to acknowledge the superiority of his argument.

Well done.

Belfelmalak
Posted - 2010.11.19 01:08:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: James Syagrius
Originally by: Belfelmalak
Edited by: Belfelmalak on 18/11/2010 08:11:11
Such is the hypocrisy of the so called democratic peoples. The speak of such things as liberty and freedom, daring to look down their noses even at such an ancient civilization as the Empire and claim to be superior due to their egalitarian society.

But what happens to their belief in liberty and self determination when it conflicts with their own self serving interests? Were the Caldari free to find their own way? Are the Intaki?


No, they are labeled as rebels, traitors and terrorists and threatened with treason for following the basic tenants of their own philosophy.

Such nations are built on a weak foundation of half truths and lies and will slowly fracture and split as each world realizes that it shares no common purpose with the next.

We in the Empire share a strong conviction in our Faith and our Empress, whether we are of Amarrin blood, Khanid or even Ammatar is less important than our shared belief. It is just such beliefs that make us strong and the lack of it that is tearing this Federation apart one system at a time.



Dear Mr. Belfelmalak.

I propose a test!

I will call the President of the Federation a fool and a lair publicly, even though I donít necessary think its trueÖ

You do the same in your ever so benevolent Empire about the Clone Queen... ohh I mean the Emperess of course...

Then letís see who gets shot by the authorities firstÖ




The act of hypocrisy is one of espousing ideas and beliefs that one does not hold true for themselves. As we in the Empire do not profess to believe that the individual is above the State or the Faith, we would not be being hypocritical in shooting a traitor to the Empress.

We pride ourselves in our understanding of the Truth and our loyalty to out leaders while The Federation claims to value individual freedoms. Under the current circumstances, itís the Federation acting hypocritically.

It would be refreshing for them to be able to admit their own flaws with the same vigor they use to indict others for not sharing their beliefs.

Alain Octirant
Gallente
Federal Nationalist Party
Posted - 2010.11.19 02:32:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Belfelmalak
We pride ourselves in our understanding of the Truth and our loyalty to out leaders while The Federation claims to value individual freedoms. Under the current circumstances, itís the Federation acting hypocritically.

I'll not impeach your understanding of "Truth", but your understanding of freedom and certainly of the Federation is somehow more flawed than Mr Latanis'. This is not a matter of individual freedoms, however much the Rebel Hawke would like to pretend it is an extension of them, and the Federation is not acting in any way at all--yet. Its people are speaking. I understand that where you're from the people do not have a voice, so this must be strange for you.

Vikarion
Caldari
State Trade Consortium
Posted - 2010.11.19 06:07:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Vikarion on 19/11/2010 06:07:18
Mr. Octirant...

Do you practice this sophistry, evasion, and emotional misdirection? Or does it come to you naturally? It's definitely a gift.

Well. Let me qualify that.

It's a gift unless your readers have a smidgen of intelligence. I suppose this does make you quite talented indeed in the Federation. However, as they say, a "protip" for you - some capsuleers are smarter than that.

Vendrin
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2010.11.19 06:59:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Alain Octirant
Originally by: Vendrin
The problem with giving people the freedom to choose their government, is they may very well choose a different government.
It seems the Federation so vaunted freedom only lasts as long as you make choices they approve of, as shown by their recent responses and the responses that led to the first war between the Caldari and Federation.


The people of the Federated Union are free to choose a different government or even a different form of government by means of our vast electoral system. A single party within that Union, or any portion under a majority of the whole, however, is not free to cleave itself from the greater portion and establish its own government. That is not an act of democracy, it is an act of rebellion.


So people are free to choose as long as they choose the parties and propositions that make it onto the government approved ballot? When a government exists to self perpetuate itself and not the people it is supposed to represent, then those it claims governance over it no longer owe it any allegiance.

I left the State when I realized that the far greater aspect of it's promises were lies, and I can not help but wish those Intaki who hope for separation the best as we have both been betrayed those we once gave our allegiance.

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2010.11.19 08:36:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Vendrin
I left the State when I realized that the far greater aspect of it's promises were lies....


Having tried several different times and ways over the last hour, I don't seem to have words enough to adequately express the sheer sense of shame and rage at those words, Vendrin.

You and Gorion Wassenar were two of the first capsuleers I ever looked up to. I have come a long way since, and by many measures fallen far, but even if I am simply a damaged and dishonored human, I have this much still: I have never been a traitor.

What you have made of yourselves fills my mouth with bitterness. I had thought you were stronger than I was.

Better.

Well, life's full of little disappointments. I suppose we'd both better get used to them.

Vendrin
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2010.11.19 08:49:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
Originally by: Vendrin
I left the State when I realized that the far greater aspect of it's promises were lies....


Having tried several different times and ways over the last hour, I don't seem to have words enough to adequately express the sheer sense of shame and rage at those words, Vendrin.

You and Gorion Wassenar were two of the first capsuleers I ever looked up to. I have come a long way since, and by many measures fallen far, but even if I am simply a damaged and dishonored human, I have this much still: I have never been a traitor.


What else were we Aria when we removed ourselves from the State's jurisdiction? When we became more concerned with our own ideas and ideals then the State's laws? When we decided that my... that our decisions were more valid then the State that raised and provided us for us?

We were traitors to the State the moment we left it's fold. And long since proven that in our attacks against State assets, among others.

I'm sorry I'm not the man you looked up to, but he died a long time ago, probably before you even met him.



Vikarion
Caldari
State Trade Consortium
Posted - 2010.11.19 09:34:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Vikarion on 19/11/2010 09:35:23
Edited by: Vikarion on 19/11/2010 09:34:42
Originally by: Vendrin
What else were we Aria when we removed ourselves from the State's jurisdiction? When we became more concerned with our own ideas and ideals then the State's laws? When we decided that my... that our decisions were more valid then the State that raised and provided us for us?

We were traitors to the State the moment we left it's fold. And long since proven that in our attacks against State assets, among others.

I'm sorry I'm not the man you looked up to, but he died a long time ago, probably before you even met him.


Oh, that's hardly true. By that standard, a Caldari trading in Amarr space becomes a traitor.

Loyalty isn't just blindly following and agreeing with an institution. It is trying to do what is best for that institution. And loyalty is not necessarily a categorical value - one can take actions in one's own interest without being disloyal. If one could not, then the logical conclusion for loyal older Caldari would be to turn over their pension investments to the megacorps before taking their own lives, which, while it might considered oddly noble by some, would also be considered silly by all.

One need not be a Hethite to be loyal, or a Provist to be Caldari. One need not serve a specific megacorporation to serve the Caldari people. One can choose to walk a general road or a specific one in service to the State, or to anyone. A desire to not show loyalty to a specific component of a multi-faceted institution does not mean one must abandon all. Nothing is perfect, and not all promises can be kept, but the Caldari State is worth preserving. We may be, by your reckoning, stumbling through the darkness half-blind with a dim candle, but that does not mean that you should blow the candle out.

And even if one does not have loyalty, one is not necessarily a traitor. Aria may be a bit...naughty...at times, but she has never sought the destruction of the State. It is well known that even criminals, in prison, given the opportunity, will beat a betrayer. There is a difference. And Aria has fought for the State, and has refused to take up arms against it. What standard of loyalty do you hold her to, and by what right? Is she a traitor for not running missions in Motsu? For not taking a plex a day in the combat zones? Two plexes a day? Tell us, oh arbiter of what we must do to be loyal capsuleers, how many and what manner of sacrifices must we make to be considered "loyal enough"?

But I digress.

Don't try to justify your actions by reducing the values of others to warped caricatures. If you are empty of compassion, drained of loyalty, inhuman and self-interested...admit it. If you have stripped away all other human characteristics, why do you still hold ego sacrosanct? And if not, consider that perhaps ego has overwhelmed the better angels of your nature, and that you are too ashamed to admit that, even to yourself.

Hussain
Gallente
Azure Horizon Federate Militia
Posted - 2010.11.19 09:55:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Saxon Hawke

Perhaps it is an attempt to sow discord amongst the Placid Intaki? Are the Nationalists trying to set us against one another?



Again the usual Illusions of Grandeur.

If there was a really unity and will for the "Placid Intaki" (a term made by you Mr. Hawke and that again proves your xenophobia and your will to divide the Intaki people) to secede by now the only body with legitimacy (the Intaki Assembly) to do so would have taken steps in that direction.

Do not confuse the will of ILF with the will of the Intaki people or the Intaki Assembly, fortunately for us all they are a lot wiser than you and manage in times of war to have both the benefits of Federation Government and Caldari Trade.

Originally by: Saxon Hawke

Interesting that you plan to advertise throughout the Viriette Constellation, but address your message only to the people of Intaki Prime. Why not also to the colonies of Dubaana, Lagaana, Sajha, Rohaanar, Ud'har, Duureanta, Kapda and Maatrukaanan?



And again the dream of a Greater Intaki and "vital space" reappear http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1193982&page=1.

Maybe this are the colonies (and I must admit that I didnít found any records of some of the them even on ILFs archives) from which Intaki Prime would get labour force provided of course they were re-educated with your principles:

Originally by: Saxon Hawke

The educational system can be redesigned to be rigorous and intensive, with emphasis on immediately practical, rather than intellectual, applications, such as on technical sciences as opposed to political discussion or philosophy. A large portion, around one-fifth of Intakiís budget, should be devoted to education to facilitate a large and competent workforce upon graduation.

Another problem facing Intaki is the loss of national identity and unity among most of the population. Many ethnic Intaki are born in foreign lands and identify themselves in terms of planet of origin, rather than being Intaki. This poses possible problems of loyalty, reliability and the possibility of racial riots.

In order to resolve racial tension, a policy to restore national identity through education in schools should be implemented. This must be constantly re-emphasized within the curriculum and "National Education", a compulsory program of which the main goal is to inculcate students with a sense of "national fraternity."


Mr. Hawke, honestly stop the rabble-rousing speech and continue to do what you have done for the economy of Intaki, if ever the Intaki Assembly will decide to secede for the Federation I hope it will be in less trouble time as now it would only bring disaster.

Vendrin
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2010.11.19 10:29:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Vikarion
Edited by: Vikarion on 19/11/2010 09:35:23
Edited by: Vikarion on 19/11/2010 09:34:42
Originally by: Vendrin
What else were we Aria when we removed ourselves from the State's jurisdiction? When we became more concerned with our own ideas and ideals then the State's laws? When we decided that my... that our decisions were more valid then the State that raised and provided us for us?

We were traitors to the State the moment we left it's fold. And long since proven that in our attacks against State assets, among others.

I'm sorry I'm not the man you looked up to, but he died a long time ago, probably before you even met him.


Oh, that's hardly true. By that standard, a Caldari trading in Amarr space becomes a traitor.

I don't quite see where you got that from my above quote. Obviously you can sell and trade in the Empire without being a traitor to the State.

Quote:
And even if one does not have loyalty, one is not necessarily a traitor. Aria may be a bit...naughty...at times, but she has never sought the destruction of the State. It is well known that even criminals, in prison, given the opportunity, will beat a betrayer. There is a difference. And Aria has fought for the State, and has refused to take up arms against it. What standard of loyalty do you hold her to, and by what right? Is she a traitor for not running missions in Motsu? For not taking a plex a day in the combat zones? Two plexes a day? Tell us, oh arbiter of what we must do to be loyal capsuleers, how many and what manner of sacrifices must we make to be considered "loyal enough"?

How about not killing those who still serve the State? I am quite certain she has destroyed her fair share of ships that fly under State colors, and I know for certain the corporation and alliance she helped found and is still a member of has. You can't destroy those who fly under the banner you once claimed allegiance too and not be anything but a traitor. No she hasn't called outright for the destruction of the State, but then again, neither have I. I'm still a traitor though, both my own decisions and by the fact of who my current employer is.

Quote:
Don't try to justify your actions by reducing the values of others to warped caricatures. If you are empty of compassion, drained of loyalty, inhuman and self-interested...admit it.

I don't think I've ever denied it. Though I am not absent of loyalty. I just choose those I give my loyalty to, with much more care.

Quote:
If you have stripped away all other human characteristics, why do you still hold ego sacrosanct? And if not, consider that perhaps ego has overwhelmed the better angels of your nature, and that you are too ashamed to admit that, even to yourself.


Don't lecture me on the follies of pride Captain. I know them personally and far to well. And I am willing to admit I am wrong when I see evidence before me. I may be a traitor to the State, but in the end, I am true to myself, and I can exist with that.

Hooch Flux
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.19 12:45:00 - [22]
 

Some people never learn...

Why don't you just leave the Intaki alone to make up there own mind what they want to do?

If they don't want to be apart of the Federation or State, let them.

Syyl'ara
Gallente
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2010.11.19 14:36:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Hussain
Originally by: Saxon Hawke

Perhaps it is an attempt to sow discord amongst the Placid Intaki? Are the Nationalists trying to set us against one another?



Again the usual Illusions of Grandeur.


I think you mean DElusions.

Quote:
If there was a really unity and will for the "Placid Intaki" (a term made by you Mr. Hawke and that again proves your xenophobia and your will to divide the Intaki people) to secede by now the only body with legitimacy (the Intaki Assembly) to do so would have taken steps in that direction.


Good job moving the goalposts. Usually people hammer on Saxon for being overbroad, they accuse him of trying to lay claim to every system with an Intaki inhabitant in it at all, sometimes. Now you go after him for being more precise, how convenient.

Also, it does not follow that just because the Assembly could have voted on this that their not doing so means exactly whatever you interpret it to mean. The Senate hasn't voted to condemn the ILF, therefor they must be on board with us, hey fair's fair.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, I guess.

Quote:
Do not confuse the will of ILF with the will of the Intaki people or the Intaki Assembly, fortunately for us all they are a lot wiser than you and manage in times of war to have both the benefits of Federation Government and Caldari Trade.


It is partly true that it is through the ILF that they receive both of those benefits. Without the insights provided on criminal activity in the area, for example, I doubt Ishukone's developments would be coming online so soon.

Quote:
And again the dream of a Greater Intaki and "vital space" reappear http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1193982&page=1.

Maybe this are the colonies (and I must admit that I didnít found any records of some of the them even on ILFs archives) from which Intaki Prime would get labour force provided of course they were re-educated with your principles


If you mean "their elected representatives will make every effort to achieve employment for every citizen who wants it" then sure, a task the Federation has failed at for several generations, now.

Coming from a would-be tyrant, its amusing to hear you hurl negative, fascist imagery onto others. Do you have evidence of this desired "labour force" or that "re-education" camps are being prepared somewhere or are you just being used as a tool of deception by your government puppeteers?

Quote:
Mr. Hawke, honestly stop the rabble-rousing speech and continue to do what you have done for the economy of Intaki, if ever the Intaki Assembly will decide to secede for the Federation I hope it will be in less trouble time as now it would only bring disaster.


It is entirely possibly to continue the mission of economic relief while occasionally making a statement, they are not mutually exclusive.

There's always a convenient excuse at the ready for not loosening the iron-fisted grip on power.

Saxon Hawke
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2010.11.19 16:02:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Saxon Hawke on 19/11/2010 16:03:27
Originally by: Hussain
If there was a really unity and will for the "Placid Intaki" (a term made by you Mr. Hawke and that again proves your xenophobia and your will to divide the Intaki people) to secede by now the only body with legitimacy (the Intaki Assembly) to do so would have taken steps in that direction.


http://www.arcadianewsnetwork.net/?p=402

Originally by: Hussain
Maybe this are the colonies (and I must admit that I didnít found any records of some of the them even on ILFs archives)


http://www.ilfcorp.com/colonies-origin.html

Originally by: Saxon Hawke

The educational system can be redesigned to be rigorous and intensive, with emphasis on immediately practical, rather than intellectual, applications, such as on technical sciences as opposed to political discussion or philosophy. A large portion, around one-fifth of Intakiís budget, should be devoted to education to facilitate a large and competent workforce upon graduation.

Another problem facing Intaki is the loss of national identity and unity among most of the population. Many ethnic Intaki are born in foreign lands and identify themselves in terms of planet of origin, rather than being Intaki. This poses possible problems of loyalty, reliability and the possibility of racial riots.

In order to resolve racial tension, a policy to restore national identity through education in schools should be implemented. This must be constantly re-emphasized within the curriculum and "National Education", a compulsory program of which the main goal is to inculcate students with a sense of "national fraternity."


I stand by this short-term plan, which would be a necessity to provide the stable foundation from which a strong and independent Intaki state could grow. These programs would help to counteract centuries of work on the part of Federation to convince the Intaki to surrender their culture and their heritage for some misguided view that doing so makes them better citizens.

Hussain
Gallente
Azure Horizon Federate Militia
Posted - 2010.11.19 16:58:00 - [25]
 

[A big parenthesis here is need, If all the news someone would like to write were true by now the EVE universe would be a very different place, it is not possible to have a discussion with someone fabricating "the facts" and "the truth" as they are needed by his arguments I am truly sorrowful that this is the only way some people seem to think will get their ideas ahead but I do refuse to discuss things in those terms its beyond ridiculous.]

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2010.11.19 18:26:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Vendrin
You can't destroy those who fly under the banner you once claimed allegiance too and not be anything but a traitor. No she hasn't called outright for the destruction of the State, but then again, neither have I.


In fact I've consistently defended it in word and deed, whether I claimed direct loyalty to it or not. But you're quite right that I am a pirate, though not one who has turned against State interests.

I am guri, Vendrin, a "naughty person." A criminal. That is the title the Caldari loyalists call me by, and I am at peace with that.

Quote:
I'm still a traitor though, both my own decisions and by the fact of who my current employer is.


Indeed. You traded an imperfect, functioning society for something unworkable, you and Wassenar both. Stimulus may stand for no single specific cause, but it does, in the aggregate, stand for anarchy-- a hopeless, pointless dream, Vendrin, as you well know.

Or if you don't, you're more of a fool than I ever would have imagined.

Vendrin
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2010.11.19 21:46:00 - [27]
 

I guess I've always had a more black and white picture of things then you Aria. Maybe it's just me, but back when I was a loyalist I always thought former loyalists who had become pirates were traitors. You can't serve two masters at ends with one another. The Angels attack State shipping lanes almost as much as the Guristas. But I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

AS for entropy, the rubble and corrupt wreckage of what is left of the State has to be moved aside before anything new can be built Aria.

Alain Octirant
Gallente
Federal Nationalist Party
Posted - 2010.11.19 22:34:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Saxon Hawke
http://www.arcadianewsnetwork.net/?p=402

How many assembly members can the ILF buy? Not enough, I'll wager.

Originally by: Saxon Hawke
centuries of work on the part of Federation to convince the Intaki to surrender their culture

Please, I have a stunning touch sculpture in my office not four meters away from where I'm sitting. Intaki culture forms a part of the broader Gallente zeitgeist, Hawke, and it continues to evolve just as do the other cultures of our great country. Far from stifled, that which is particularly Intaki has been uplifted and enriched.

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2010.11.20 02:49:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Vendrin
I guess I've always had a more black and white picture of things then you Aria.


You're far from alone in that. Idealists are commonplace-- and because they lack the courage to accept that the universe itself is morally silent, they tend to be either profoundly naive or deeply frustrated.

With your "blow it all up" rhetoric, it looks like you'd be the latter.

Quote:
Maybe it's just me, but back when I was a loyalist I always thought former loyalists who had become pirates were traitors.


That's because you were playing at law enforcement. We all were. That was what brought the Fraction down on us, remember? In hindsight, they needn't have bothered. Antipiracy is one of New Eden's more basically doomed undertakings.

Quote:
You can't serve two masters at ends with one another. The Angels attack State shipping lanes almost as much as the Guristas.


I'm not sure whether that view is charmingly old-fashioned or just obtuse. The Angel Cartel operates in the shadows of the four empires; we're active pretty much everywhere, and piracy is one of our activities. It's nothing "personal"; it's not a sign of any diplomatic opposition or even incompatibility. The Cartel is simply the force that gives order to what would exist anyway: empire society's illicit underbelly.

You know, that underbelly that not one society in the history of humankind has ever been able to do away with?

What the empires cannot provide, we provide. Those the empires have no use for can come to us. Filling in the cracks: the eternal function of the black market.

I don't serve an enemy of the State, Vendrin. I'm part of the mortar that covers the gaps in the system. The State and Empire seem to understand this better than most: yes, they fight us, as law-abiding societies must, but check their formal diplomatic standings towards us.

Neutral. Both of them. Very practical.

The Gallente Federation and Minmatar Republic, now, those two consider us a major problem and are making more than a token effort to be rid of us.

Quote:
AS for entropy, the rubble and corrupt wreckage of what is left of the State has to be moved aside before anything new can be built Aria.


You won't be able to construct anything that will suit you better, Vendrin. You saw what the Caldari people chose to put in power, given the chance: a reactionary arch-traditionalist. Why? Because the Caldari people believe in the Caldari way of life. They just didn't care for the greed-driven fools at the top.

Even if you somehow manage to do what the entire Federation continuously fails at, you will not like what emerges from the ashes. And if you try to force the issue as King Vendrin?

Ha. You are easily as ill-suited to lead a nation of humans as I am; gods grant you are not fool enough to try.

Syyl'ara
Gallente
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2010.11.20 04:23:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Syyl''ara on 20/11/2010 05:08:16
Originally by: Alain Octirant
How many assembly members can the ILF buy? Not enough, I'll wager.


If you have evidence of a treasonous conspiracy to corrupt the Assembly, please do share it.

Because you wouldn't dare engage in libel or other kinds of slander, right?

Also, please capitalize the A in assembly when referring to "The Intaki Assembly", you're a politician, please show some institutional respect and statesmanship when referring to an aligned governmental body.

Quote:
Please, I have a stunning touch sculpture in my office not four meters away from where I'm sitting. Intaki culture forms a part of the broader Gallente zeitgeist, Hawke, and it continues to evolve just as do the other cultures of our great country. Far from stifled, that which is particularly Intaki has been uplifted and enriched.


So because some Gallente usurp the Intaki people's culture to use as a fad every few years as with many other cultures, the Intaki are now committed to an eternal pact with them? Has it occurred to you that cultural exchange can still take place without those cultures existing under the same government?

Also, anyone who speaks otherwise will be labeled a traitor, a rebel, an insurgent, a collaborator with evil, and it will be adamantly suggested that they not be invited to family holiday events until they act "properly".

Finally, whether a given cultural trait is "enriched" or "diluted" is an entirely subjective matter, but its not surprising that you presume anything+Gallente=better than it was without Gallente.


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