open All Channels
seplocked Skill Discussions
blankseplocked I believe this whole skill points thing is a load of [email protected]
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic

Diosas
Posted - 2010.11.17 11:59:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Diosas on 17/11/2010 12:08:57
After playing eve for some years, I have always wondered about the true value of skill points and whether its just one big scam.
The reason I say this is that on many many occasions and even tested in sisi, I have found people with much less skillpoints and say even a 4 year age different ( and yes combat trained each type of ppl) can utterly own the much more older character.
Even if the experienced guy has much more gunnery skills, compensation skills etc etc.

for example i tested this with a friend on sisi, how can a 2009 player in a tengu, beat quite easily a 2003 player in say a BS with uber pvp/tanking etc skills, t2 guns/ammo/hardners t2 drones the lot? We just simply did a target and shoot example.

Yes you may say well the cruiser was faster blah de blah and that with certain mods it has high resistances all that stuff, but this then i based on the ship not the skills, is it not? again this is just an expalmple of a tengu v BS, there are more other examples of t1 v t1, t2 v t2 etc

This is just one example.

I really thinking skillpoints really count for nothing in this game. Its really about the using the right ship. However i still dont believe in the example above a 2009 player should anywhere near beat a 2003 player, especially one with uber pvp skills.

It was an interesting exercise either way



Camdelma
Gallente
In Bacon We Trust
Posted - 2010.11.17 12:09:00 - [2]
 

BAWWW a noob killed me so I'm going to whine about it on the forums.

If you're that old, get a supercarrier, so it takes two hundred noobs to kill you.

Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
Posted - 2010.11.17 12:10:00 - [3]
 

To test your theory you would have to have the two players in identical ships. I would then hope that the player with the highest amount of SP would come out on top.

Combat in Eve is based on the rock/paper/scissors model. If your opponent brings the correct ship to the fight it will be very difficult to beat him. A t3 cruiser against a BS would be one such fight.

Intigo
Amarr
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.11.17 12:11:00 - [4]
 

Holy smokes - you do not have the faintest idea what you are talking about, Diosas.

Props!

Diosas
Posted - 2010.11.17 12:11:00 - [5]
 

so you agree that its about the ship NOT skill points?, thats all im stating

Diosas
Posted - 2010.11.17 12:13:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Intigo
Holy smokes - you do not have the faintest idea what you are talking about, Diosas.

Props!


please enlighten me with you wisdom? .

iP0D
Posted - 2010.11.17 12:13:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Diosas
so you agree that its about the ship NOT skill points?, thats all im stating


You don't *get* EVE.


Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.17 12:15:00 - [8]
 

The brains and experience of the player are more important than the skillpoints of the character.

Diosas
Posted - 2010.11.17 12:16:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: iP0D
Originally by: Diosas
so you agree that its about the ship NOT skill points?, thats all im stating


You don't *get* EVE.




Guys stop trolling lol, at least back up your statement with explanations

Gladys Pank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
Posted - 2010.11.17 12:16:00 - [10]
 

lol, clueless people in my eve?

Diosas
Posted - 2010.11.17 12:18:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
The brains and experience of the player are more important than the skillpoints of the character.


I would agree to part of that, however in our tests we merely targetted and shoot nothing more.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.11.17 12:20:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Diosas

Guys stop trolling lol, at least back up your statement with explanations


What they're saying is that you have no clue at all about "PvP". Simply training the skills and pressing buttons doesn't make you "uber", it usually makes you dead.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.11.17 12:20:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 17/11/2010 12:21:50
Originally by: Diosas
for example i tested this with a friend on sisi, how can a 2009 player in a tengu, beat quite easily a 2003 player in say a BS with uber pvp/tanking etc skills, t2 guns/ammo/hardners t2 drones the lot? We just simply did a target and shoot example.

Yes you may say well the cruiser was faster blah de blah and that with certain mods it has high resistances all that stuff, but this then i based on the ship not the skills, is it not? again this is just an expalmple of a tengu v BS, there are more other examples of t1 v t1, t2 v t2 etc
It's not a question of skill in your example because you chose not to include it in the testing like you say, you "just simply did a target and shoot".

Moreover, it's not really a matter of ship, so much as it is a matter of class and purpose. Fit any ship against its predator and it will be at a severe disadvantage, and since any (non-overpowered) ship will have a counterpart that is more or less specifically designed to kill it, the ship itself isn't really a part of the equation either. Rather, it's the rock-paper-scissors-style choice that becomes important. Yes, in a sense it comes down to "pick the right ship to get a (significant) advantage", but exactly what qualifies as "the right ship" is always up in the air.

Finally, there's the matter of meta-gaming skill: fitting nice-sounding stuff is good and all. Fitting it in useful combinations and being able to match and counter-act some particular fit on the opposing side, given some particular situation, is far more important. In your case, a specifically-tanked repping fit on any ship can sooner or later overcome a general-tanked buffer because, for all intents and purposes, the repping fithas infinite HP once it reaches a certain level. Infinite is better than even the most hardy buffer.

What matters is choice. Did you pick the appropriate ship to counter what the other guy would bring? Did you pick the right modules to put on it? Did you make these selections in a way that matches your flying style? etc. etc. etc. A huge part of any battle takes place long before the two ships even appear in the same system.

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2010.11.17 12:21:00 - [14]
 

Honestly, you must be trolling. Not very good trolling, actually, but trolling nevertheless.

In short: games where new players cannot catch up with veterans are doomed to FAIL.

If everything came down to skillpoints, EvE would not exist.

If a T3 cruiser by a younger character HAS to die to a BS piloted by a veteran, EvE would be Rock-Scissors-Paper with a fancy interface.

Kthxbye.

Thorian Vorski
Posted - 2010.11.17 12:23:00 - [15]
 

gratz diosas. Many ppl have bought into your epic troll about a completely stupid topic. Nice.

Diosas
Posted - 2010.11.17 12:30:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 17/11/2010 12:21:50


What matters is choice. Did you pick the appropriate ship to counter what the other guy would bring? Did you pick the right modules to put on it? Did you make these selections in a way that matches your flying style? etc. etc. etc. A huge part of any battle takes place long before the two ships even appear in the same system.


This is the 64million dollar question isnt it, you can never fit the right ship for every possible occasion its just impossible. This again comes to my point skillpoints really dont matter.

I dont understand all the trolling, its weird that people get so upset, its just a discussion, have you something missing in your lives? perhaps happiness? or you need to seek anger management Twisted Evil

Gladys Pank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
Posted - 2010.11.17 12:33:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Diosas
I dont understand all the trolling

There's clearly a lot you don't understand.

No one is getting upset except you. Everyone else is just pointing out how inept you are.

Dani WH
Posted - 2010.11.17 12:43:00 - [18]
 

Skill points are a bonus

Like it has been said, this is a rock/scissors/paper game. You can't expecto to beat a Tengu on an Osprey Laughing even if you have 100m SP.

Experienced players already have much advantage, for example financially they can replace expensive ships much easier than a noob that barely earns 50m ISK a week.

Shasz
Angels of Anarchy
Posted - 2010.11.17 12:46:00 - [19]
 

If you want to test whether skill points matter, then eliminate the other variables (ship classes, types of weapons, etc) and THEN run your test.

Your test is the equivalent of putting a new driver with a fresh license in an automatic, traction-controlled Corvette in a drag race against Jensen Button (or any other championship race driver) in a truck, and then saying driving skill doesn't matter when the Corvette wins.

Of course a Tengu is going to kill a battleship. It is T3, has potentially fantastic shield tanking, and a small signature radius versus a battleship's guns and/or missiles so that it'll take less damage in the first place.

Lily Fair
Posted - 2010.11.17 12:51:00 - [20]
 

So wait, you found out that the eve universe is fair by terms that a new player can beat an old player and not vice versa by default?

And you think the results of your research on the matter were thread worthy, in other words surprising and worth sharing?

And you disagree with the working-as-intended mechanic?


You honestly believe that you should win, just because you have been playing longer? No seriously?

CCP StevieSG

Posted - 2010.11.17 12:54:00 - [21]
 

Moved to Skill Discussion from EVE General.

Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari
Deep Space Nomads Corp
Posted - 2010.11.17 13:00:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Diosas
Edited by: Diosas on 17/11/2010 12:08:57
After playing eve for some years, I have always wondered about the true value of skill points and whether its just one big scam.
The reason I say this is that on many many occasions and even tested in sisi, I have found people with much less skillpoints and say even a 4 year age different ( and yes combat trained each type of ppl) can utterly own the much more older character.
Even if the experienced guy has much more gunnery skills, compensation skills etc etc.

for example i tested this with a friend on sisi, how can a 2009 player in a tengu, beat quite easily a 2003 player in say a BS with uber pvp/tanking etc skills, t2 guns/ammo/hardners t2 drones the lot? We just simply did a target and shoot example.

Yes you may say well the cruiser was faster blah de blah and that with certain mods it has high resistances all that stuff, but this then i based on the ship not the skills, is it not? again this is just an expalmple of a tengu v BS, there are more other examples of t1 v t1, t2 v t2 etc

This is just one example.

I really thinking skillpoints really count for nothing in this game. Its really about the using the right ship. However i still dont believe in the example above a 2009 player should anywhere near beat a 2003 player, especially one with uber pvp skills.

It was an interesting exercise either way




So what you are saying is that because I joined later than you, I should lose every single time, no matter what our ships are. Sure that makes perfect sense.

Flapje
Posted - 2010.11.17 13:02:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Flapje on 17/11/2010 13:02:17
Originally by: Diosas
Originally by: Rodj Blake
The brains and experience of the player are more important than the skillpoints of the character.


I would agree to part of that, however in our tests we merely targetted and shoot nothing more.


... that's where you went wrong... 1 fit ships against each other would never have realistic results.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.11.17 13:10:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Diosas
This is the 64million dollar question isnt it, you can never fit the right ship for every possible occasion its just impossible. This again comes to my point skillpoints really dont matter.
Depends on what you mean by "matter".

SP will never make you win. More SP is not automatically better than less SP.
They can, however, give you choices that you could put to use in order to win.

Cyprus Black
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.11.17 13:22:00 - [25]
 

I actually like the idea that a year old character stands a chance to win against a six year old character.

To me it means that, although SP has an impact, the more important factors are location/ship types/damage types/tactics/situational awareness/fitting/the element of surprise/and a host of other smaller factors.

If a newbie challenged a vet to a fight on X day at X location, that vet will come prepared and will no doubt win of course. But if that vet doesn't know a fight is coming he may be caught with his pants down as I believe what happened with the OP.

In the situation presented, the noob in the Tengu obviously has a clear advantage over the battleship. That noob took full advantage of the scenario and won. The OP doesn't seem to understand that it's not SP that wins battles.

Things are fine as is.

Nazriel
Caldari
Monks of War
DarkSide.
Posted - 2010.11.17 13:38:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Dani WH

Like it has been said, this is a rock/scissors/paper game. You can't expecto to beat a Tengu on an Osprey Laughing even if you have 100m SP.


You just haven't met a pro Osprey pilot.

Niclas Solo
Amarr
Love n Peace
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2010.11.17 15:33:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Diosas

This is the 64million dollar question isnt it, you can never fit the right ship for every possible occasion its just impossible. This again comes to my point skillpoints really dont matter.


That is why Minmatar/angel ships are so good, if they don't have the right fit for that fight they can most of the times just leave.

SP give you more option in what to fly and fit and let you use the fitting to its maximum. But if you don't know how to fit a ship or know what fight you can win then of course your SP can't save you.

Dasquirrel715
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2010.11.17 18:18:00 - [28]
 

Herp derp herp derp. Thats all I heard in your post please l2eve

Zan Shiro
Posted - 2010.11.18 03:53:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Zan Shiro on 18/11/2010 03:56:02
Edited by: Zan Shiro on 18/11/2010 03:54:42
BS vs non bs....usually ends up bad for the bs no matter sp's involved. BS' are not solo ships. Get over it.

Not even a skill points issue. Tengu average skills (4 propulsion sub, 4 navi skills, RF AB) is 598 m/s, mine is anyway. More than enough speed to speed tank large guns. Missiles don't have tracking issues...if painting the drone they release or rigored, they will hit decent with hml (can't speak for HAM performance, haven't used much).

BS guns don't hit small targets, you release drones. While drones out...you have 2 choices. Hope drones kill target. Or attacker loses point while kiting the drones as he pops them. Loses point....gtfo now. Its you chance to leave and safe up. If all drones lost, he just speed tank orbits, high grade ammo and pop goes the bs if you have no backup incoming.

Really is a shame your 2003 player in 7 years of playing has not realized that BS aren't solo ships. Hope this a troll cause that is just friggin sad otherwise.

Mike Voidstar
Posted - 2010.11.19 07:06:00 - [30]
 

Skills and equipment go hand in hand.

In the above example with a Frigate holding a Battleship--

In most Battleships, this is going to go fairly badly for the Battleship pilot as drones won't do damage fast enough before they get popped.

However, an experianced Dominix Pilot is going to have several things helping him: Drone Bonuses from the Domi, probably good drone skills (especially drone durability for this), and enough Drone Bay for several replacement flights of drones. Attempting to kite and kill the drones will have a much higher chance in killing or running the Frigate off his point than in other ships.

It's not just the raw SP, it's where you spent those SP, and the choices those SP afford you. At the end of the day, the 5 year character isn't going to significantly better than a 2 year character in any given ship---but the 5 year character won't be limited to that particular ship like the 2 year probably will be. Both characters will be equally skilled using their tools, but the more experianced character will have more tools available.


Pages: [1] 2

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only