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EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.11.30 16:51:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: irion felpamy
Argueing for a buff to the speed and range people can drop supers in eve's current enviroment is just plain crackers.

What will you ask for next nerfs to the bounty office?

Hey I covered that exact complaint in the post directly above yours.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.11.30 20:56:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Father Thug
Edit. On the note of CCP liking blobs. It may look that way. But that's just a consequence of lack of affinity due to distance from experiencing these things directly, and well, lack of vision and maybe a little willpower to deal with such things. It's perfectly possible to deal with things, but that is a totally different debate ...


Look at the trend for the scale of battles in Eve (only tracked the battles where people were able to shoot each other). CCP puts a lot of effort into making these ever increasingly larger battles happen. They report these battles as indirect pats on their backs. Their advertising focuses on these giant battles. They call it a Massive Multiplayer for a reason, the more people involved, the better.

Anyway, this bonus would likely cause a different thing to happen. Smaller, faster, more spontaneous fights. The faster things can move around in Eve, the less time people have to build up fleets, the smaller the blobs.

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.11.30 21:20:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Originally by: Father Thug
Edit. On the note of CCP liking blobs. It may look that way. But that's just a consequence of lack of affinity due to distance from experiencing these things directly, and well, lack of vision and maybe a little willpower to deal with such things. It's perfectly possible to deal with things, but that is a totally different debate ...


Look at the trend for the scale of battles in Eve (only tracked the battles where people were able to shoot each other). CCP puts a lot of effort into making these ever increasingly larger battles happen. They report these battles as indirect pats on their backs. Their advertising focuses on these giant battles. They call it a Massive Multiplayer for a reason, the more people involved, the better.

Anyway, this bonus would likely cause a different thing to happen. Smaller, faster, more spontaneous fights. The faster things can move around in Eve, the less time people have to build up fleets, the smaller the blobs.


Holy **** this link is fantastic. Thank you Bagehi.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.11.30 21:27:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Holy **** this link is fantastic. Thank you Bagehi.


No problem Ed.

Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.12.01 01:24:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 01/12/2010 01:23:50
Not supported, because imo capitals can move too fast around eve as it is atm.
I do however think the current bonuses are crap and support anything more useful.

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.01 04:34:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 01/12/2010 01:23:50
Not supported, because imo capitals can move too fast around eve as it is atm.
I do however think the current bonuses are crap and support anything more useful.

And making them faster will somehow make them overpowered or harder to combat?

irion felpamy
Minmatar
Assisted Genocide
Unprovoked Aggression
Posted - 2010.12.01 10:49:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Originally by: irion felpamy
Argueing for a buff to the speed and range people can drop supers in eve's current enviroment is just plain crackers.

What will you ask for next nerfs to the bounty office?

Hey I covered that exact complaint in the post directly above yours.


Quote:
1st) A fleet looking to hotdrop a target past the edge of their unbuffed range would have to gather in one system. I know nothing of you or any alliance you may play for but I am in the habit of supercaps logging into different systems and even different constellations with the target in mind so they are harder to track and lock down.


Only ships who start furter away from the first jump point need to be in the sansha staging system and only then ones who required a range buff in the first place, the rest of your post was waffling about blobs. My point remains you are asking for a buff to the ability of supercarriers to project power not because they need it but because it sounds like a cool bonus, this is silly.

EdFromLogistics
Posted - 2010.12.01 12:42:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: EdFromLogistics on 01/12/2010 12:48:30
Originally by: irion felpamy
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Originally by: irion felpamy
Argueing for a buff to the speed and range people can drop supers in eve's current enviroment is just plain crackers.

What will you ask for next nerfs to the bounty office?

Hey I covered that exact complaint in the post directly above yours.


Quote:
1st) A fleet looking to hotdrop a target past the edge of their unbuffed range would have to gather in one system. I know nothing of you or any alliance you may play for but I am in the habit of supercaps logging into different systems and even different constellations with the target in mind so they are harder to track and lock down.


Only ships who start furter away from the first jump point need to be in the sansha staging system and only then ones who required a range buff in the first place, the rest of your post was waffling about blobs. My point remains you are asking for a buff to the ability of supercarriers to project power not because they need it but because it sounds like a cool bonus, this is silly.


Funny, every supercap pilot I have talked to seems to like it. Being a supercap pilot myself I like it. You dont even seem to own or operate a capital, let alone a supercap. Opinion noted that you view this as silly.


edit: Woops wrong account

irion felpamy
Minmatar
Assisted Genocide
Unprovoked Aggression
Posted - 2010.12.01 14:14:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: irion felpamy on 01/12/2010 14:16:10
Of course super cap pilots like it, ask a ishkur pilot if he would like the abiltiy to fit a DDD, thats some terrible logic there. Also I don't own a supercap but if hypotheticaly I did it would not be on my main.


EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.01 14:47:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: irion felpamy
Edited by: irion felpamy on 01/12/2010 14:16:10
Of course super cap pilots like it, ask a ishkur pilot if he would like the abiltiy to fit a DDD, thats some terrible logic there. Also I don't own a supercap but if hypotheticaly I did it would not be on my main.



So you put forth that giving a supercarrier the proposes ability would be as overpowering as giving the ishkur a doomsday?

This isn't my main either :) But I am sure that when you join the might Unprovoked Aggression supercap fleet it will be with a well trained alt

irion felpamy
Minmatar
Assisted Genocide
Unprovoked Aggression
Posted - 2010.12.01 14:56:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Originally by: irion felpamy
Edited by: irion felpamy on 01/12/2010 14:16:10
Of course super cap pilots like it, ask a ishkur pilot if he would like the abiltiy to fit a DDD, thats some terrible logic there. Also I don't own a supercap but if hypotheticaly I did it would not be on my main.



So you put forth that giving a supercarrier the proposes ability would be as overpowering as giving the ishkur a doomsday?

This isn't my main either :) But I am sure that when you join the might Unprovoked Aggression supercap fleet it will be with a well trained alt


No what I am saying is that supercap pilots may not (let us be honest here and say won't) give you an objective opinion. The reason is important not the amount.

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.01 16:15:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: irion felpamy
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Originally by: irion felpamy
Edited by: irion felpamy on 01/12/2010 14:16:10
Of course super cap pilots like it, ask a ishkur pilot if he would like the abiltiy to fit a DDD, thats some terrible logic there. Also I don't own a supercap but if hypotheticaly I did it would not be on my main.



So you put forth that giving a supercarrier the proposes ability would be as overpowering as giving the ishkur a doomsday?

This isn't my main either :) But I am sure that when you join the might Unprovoked Aggression supercap fleet it will be with a well trained alt


No what I am saying is that supercap pilots may not (let us be honest here and say won't) give you an objective opinion. The reason is important not the amount.

And a person with zero capital experience whatsoever is able to give an educated objective opinion?

Killerhound
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.12.01 16:57:00 - [73]
 

I actually like the idea. Actually it should only give bonus to Supercapitals, since oterwhise a Carrier could jump horribly far and Jump Freighters would gain additional Logistical Powers.

I think programming work won't be any big deal since there are already ships that can influence a whole gang. That capability should be put togehter with a wyvern ressistance bonus and a nyx DPS then remove DCU +1 and the ship would be a great sight in any fleet.

Fly safe

irion felpamy
Minmatar
Assisted Genocide
Unprovoked Aggression
Posted - 2010.12.02 08:57:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Originally by: irion felpamy
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Originally by: irion felpamy
Edited by: irion felpamy on 01/12/2010 14:16:10
Of course super cap pilots like it, ask a ishkur pilot if he would like the abiltiy to fit a DDD, thats some terrible logic there. Also I don't own a supercap but if hypotheticaly I did it would not be on my main.



So you put forth that giving a supercarrier the proposes ability would be as overpowering as giving the ishkur a doomsday?

This isn't my main either :) But I am sure that when you join the might Unprovoked Aggression supercap fleet it will be with a well trained alt


No what I am saying is that supercap pilots may not (let us be honest here and say won't) give you an objective opinion. The reason is important not the amount.

And a person with zero capital experience whatsoever is able to give an educated objective opinion?


What on earth made you think I have no capital experience? All I have said is I do not own a supercap or are you basing all your information on a five second google of the posting characters name?

When assesing a change for balance and gameplay implications the criteria should not be as you appear to be using if the people who will directly benefit like the sound of it.

While I may have not proved to you that I can give an educated objective opinion you have shown that you cannot.

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.02 09:25:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: irion felpamy

What on earth made you think I have no capital experience? All I have said is I do not own a supercap or are you basing all your information on a five second google of the posting characters name?

When assesing a change for balance and gameplay implications the criteria should not be as you appear to be using if the people who will directly benefit like the sound of it.

While I may have not proved to you that I can give an educated objective opinion you have shown that you cannot.

And yet you bring no argument proving your capital experience.

You realize how flawed it is that those with experience with the ship shouldn't be allowed input because they are biased right? Supercaps are unlike any other ship in Eve. Flying a supercap is unlike any other ship in Eve. If you haven't flown one or dealt with them extensively the odds of you fully understanding them are minimal.

But it's nice to know you basically chose to compare apples to oranges instead of answering anything in my post ^_^

irion felpamy
Minmatar
Assisted Genocide
Unprovoked Aggression
Posted - 2010.12.02 13:14:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Originally by: irion felpamy

What on earth made you think I have no capital experience? All I have said is I do not own a supercap or are you basing all your information on a five second google of the posting characters name?

When assesing a change for balance and gameplay implications the criteria should not be as you appear to be using if the people who will directly benefit like the sound of it.

While I may have not proved to you that I can give an educated objective opinion you have shown that you cannot.

And yet you bring no argument proving your capital experience.

You realize how flawed it is that those with experience with the ship shouldn't be allowed input because they are biased right? Supercaps are unlike any other ship in Eve. Flying a supercap is unlike any other ship in Eve. If you haven't flown one or dealt with them extensively the odds of you fully understanding them are minimal.

But it's nice to know you basically chose to compare apples to oranges instead of answering anything in my post ^_^


I never claimed that people with experience should not be allowed input thats something you have made up. I replied to your post you replied by attacking my me. You asked for a ship you consider underpowered (I am not trying to argue that point) to be buffed with a bonus that would buff the power projection and mobility of all capital fleets with access to one.
Quote:

Funny, every supercap pilot I have talked to seems to like it. Being a supercap pilot myself I like it. You dont even seem to own or operate a capital, let alone a supercap. Opinion noted that you view this as silly.


I raised a concern that you were buffing something that did not need buffing and you replied by tell us that the people getting buffed liked the idea. I don't see how this justifies the boost.

People with supercaps can have input but their enthusiasm for a change cannot be used as critera for acceptance.




EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.02 15:16:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: irion felpamy

I raised a concern that you were buffing something that did not need buffing and you replied by tell us that the people getting buffed liked the idea. I don't see how this justifies the boost.


So you think a faction ship that costs an extreme amount more than its t1 counterparts should be worse in literally every way? That has no need of a buff? With stats as is this ship is less useful than a hel. Hel's are not only the least useful supercarrier by a very long shot they are actively discouraged in fleets because they are so bad. You propose that a ship worse than a Hel doesn't need a buff?

What is your reasoning for this?

iP0D
Posted - 2010.12.02 15:52:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Originally by: irion felpamy

I raised a concern that you were buffing something that did not need buffing and you replied by tell us that the people getting buffed liked the idea. I don't see how this justifies the boost.


So you think a faction ship that costs an extreme amount more than its t1 counterparts should be worse in literally every way? That has no need of a buff? With stats as is this ship is less useful than a hel. Hel's are not only the least useful supercarrier by a very long shot they are actively discouraged in fleets because they are so bad. You propose that a ship worse than a Hel doesn't need a buff?

What is your reasoning for this?


That's not what he said. But, you are well aware of this.

Honestly man, I'm starting to wonder, all you do is selectively engage on argumentation. Every time someone actually comes up with an argument, concern or statement, all you do is twist the angle on both topic and quote so you can sidestep the hot potato and jump back on your own horse as if everything is well on track. Can't you at least take this Assembly Hall a little bit more seriously? It's not a lobby for Congress you know. Give it a little credit, less reflexive behaviour, give people room because everybody is different and allow for discussion from different perspectives without slapping, twisting or sidestepping. Come on, you have it in you.

At this rate you'll have more succes picking up the social engineering stick again.


Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.12.02 19:18:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Bagehi on 02/12/2010 19:19:03
Originally by: iP0D
That's not what he said. But, you are well aware of this.


This was the original argument:

Originally by: irion felpamy
Argueing for a buff to the speed and range people can drop supers in eve's current enviroment is just plain crackers.

What will you ask for next nerfs to the bounty office?


The ship will cost a lot more than a Nyx but be on par or worse than a Hel. That doesn't make sense. Increased range means increased agility of fleets. Look at the fast-moving fleets and tell me if they are bigger or smaller than the slow moving blobs? You want smaller fleets to be more useful? Let them move around faster.

Also, irion is the one who started the troll behavior with the bounty office comment.

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.02 22:36:00 - [80]
 

I would respond to you ipod but bagehi did it for me. It became clear almost immediately that he was arguing just to argue. So as I said several posts ago I let him just to keep the thread bumping. He stopped bringing anything new or even countering my actual relevant points long ago.

Stephanie Broadchest
Posted - 2010.12.03 03:57:00 - [81]
 

CRAP looks; crap bonuses. CCP is screwing with us. AGAIN.

This vote is for all 5 of my accounts.
For a fleet command type ship it sucks.
Let me guess when the poo releases gas it heals all ships within 200km 50%.

Great now all we have to do is wait for a fart..... LOL








Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2010.12.03 07:16:00 - [82]
 

The sansha mothership stats changed. You might want to check out the most recent post from CCP Ytterbium.

irion felpamy
Minmatar
Assisted Genocide
Unprovoked Aggression
Posted - 2010.12.03 08:40:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Edited by: Bagehi on 02/12/2010 19:19:03
Originally by: iP0D
That's not what he said. But, you are well aware of this.


This was the original argument:

Originally by: irion felpamy
Argueing for a buff to the speed and range people can drop supers in eve's current enviroment is just plain crackers.

What will you ask for next nerfs to the bounty office?


The ship will cost a lot more than a Nyx but be on par or worse than a Hel. That doesn't make sense. Increased range means increased agility of fleets. Look at the fast-moving fleets and tell me if they are bigger or smaller than the slow moving blobs? You want smaller fleets to be more useful? Let them move around faster.

Also, irion is the one who started the troll behavior with the bounty office comment.


That was not a troll that was what I thought was a pretty simple way of comparing buffing something strong to nerfing something weak. I still do not understand why the apparent weakness of an individual hull should justify a boost to capital power projection as a whole?

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.03 13:14:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: EdFromHumanResources on 03/12/2010 13:23:03
While I like some of the changes its still completely awful. They gave it a nid like bonus to energy and shield transfer without increasing the range. Giving this ships remote logistics the exact same problem as t3. ****ty range makes it worthless

So that anyone can comment and easily see the new set of stats we are now discussing here is the post by CCP Chronotis
Originally by: CCP Ytterbium

After reviewing this thread and discussing this matter further, we have decided to modify the Revenant to account for the constructive points expressed so far.


Slot layout: +1 low, from 7/7/4 to 7/7/5
Shield: +20k HP, from 980k to 1m
Armor: -20k HP from 610k to 590k
Drone bandwidth: decreased from 13k to 7.5k
Dronebay: decreased from 250k to 200k


Ship bonuses have been changed to the following:

Pirate bonus:
* 100% bonus to fighter, fighter-bomber damage and hitpoints

Amarr carrier:
* Can fit 1 additional Warfare Link module per level
* 10% bonus to fighter and fighter-bomber max velocity per level (which refers to top MWD speed here, not orbit velocity)

Caldari carrier:
* Can deploy 1 additional fighter or fighter-bomber per level
* 50% bonus to capital energy and shield transfer per level

Role bonuses:
* Unchanged

The main reason behind such a move was to more closely follow the Sansha's Nation ship building philosophy, while providing advantages that would make this vessel unique, and not necessarily overshadowing its regular counterparts.


We would like to thank you for your help and feedback on this particular matter.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.03 17:52:00 - [85]
 

It's... weird. I'm on back-of-the-napkin level math here, but this means that it has a Thanny's drone limit while it will do twice the DPS of a Nyx. Its fighters/bombers will also be hugely more survivable and much easier to recall. All of which points to a combat role... but it's shield tanked and doesn't have the ability to fit an effective RR Shield setup. Hell, its shield rep range is so low that it can't even rep POS shields on a large. Its gang link suite makes it able to rock a bunch of links, but it's still hugely eclipsed by any titan fielding links and, indeed, by any command ship or T3.

I just don't get it.

What is its role supposed to be, exactly?

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.12.04 22:34:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
It's... weird. I'm on back-of-the-napkin level math here, but this means that it has a Thanny's drone limit while it will do twice the DPS of a Nyx. Its fighters/bombers will also be hugely more survivable and much easier to recall. All of which points to a combat role... but it's shield tanked and doesn't have the ability to fit an effective RR Shield setup. Hell, its shield rep range is so low that it can't even rep POS shields on a large. Its gang link suite makes it able to rock a bunch of links, but it's still hugely eclipsed by any titan fielding links and, indeed, by any command ship or T3.

I just don't get it.

What is its role supposed to be, exactly?



I will agree with CCP, it follows the same logic of most of the Sansha ships: a lot of interesting bonuses, but a general "worse than" theme.

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.05 17:28:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
It's... weird. I'm on back-of-the-napkin level math here, but this means that it has a Thanny's drone limit while it will do twice the DPS of a Nyx. Its fighters/bombers will also be hugely more survivable and much easier to recall. All of which points to a combat role... but it's shield tanked and doesn't have the ability to fit an effective RR Shield setup. Hell, its shield rep range is so low that it can't even rep POS shields on a large. Its gang link suite makes it able to rock a bunch of links, but it's still hugely eclipsed by any titan fielding links and, indeed, by any command ship or T3.

I just don't get it.

What is its role supposed to be, exactly?


It can pop out 15 drones doing the damage of 30 fighter bombers max. Drone bandwith actually stops it from using that 6th DCU to pop out 16 FB. Kinda funny eh? To get a role bonus your ship can't ****ing use.

Abramul
Gallente
StarFleet Enterprises
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.12.08 22:47:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
It's... weird. I'm on back-of-the-napkin level math here, but this means that it has a Thanny's drone limit while it will do twice the DPS of a Nyx. Its fighters/bombers will also be hugely more survivable and much easier to recall. All of which points to a combat role... but it's shield tanked and doesn't have the ability to fit an effective RR Shield setup. Hell, its shield rep range is so low that it can't even rep POS shields on a large. Its gang link suite makes it able to rock a bunch of links, but it's still hugely eclipsed by any titan fielding links and, indeed, by any command ship or T3.

I just don't get it.

What is its role supposed to be, exactly?


It can pop out 15 drones doing the damage of 30 fighter bombers max. Drone bandwith actually stops it from using that 6th DCU to pop out 16 FB. Kinda funny eh? To get a role bonus your ship can't ****ing use.

It looks like the +1 DCU and +30% jump range bonuses were dropped (the 'unchanged' role bonus covers remote ECM, ewar immunity, and warfare link CPU), which leaves you with a supercarrier with tough drones, especially against AoE weapons, and the repping ability of a triaged carrier, but not the range. Alternately, you can have slightly more damage than a non-Nyx with DCUs.

Of course, if the conventional wisdom is right, you do still end up with an inferior tank compared to other supercarriers. I assume it is; I've not had a chance to use supercarriers outside of EFT.

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.12.11 03:47:00 - [89]
 

Actually without DCU's it does non nyx damage. With 5 DCU's it does more damage than a nyx.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.11 06:25:00 - [90]
 

Ah, yeah, my math was ****ed up.


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