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Reidsol
Blood Covenant
Posted - 2010.11.16 17:31:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Narisa Bithon
super carriers are too overpowered

they can sit at a hostile pos with a jump bridge and tank the guns all day while killing anything that jumps thru cos the neuts and ewar doesnt work on them.

a fix would be to allow only pos ewar mods work on them


Another Super Carrier expert ...

FYI U can neut a SC. U can't fit jump bridge on a SC.

Doppleganger
Minmatar
Band of Builders Inc.
Sodalitas XX
Posted - 2010.11.16 19:29:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Reidsol
Originally by: Narisa Bithon
super carriers are too overpowered

they can sit at a hostile pos with a jump bridge and tank the guns all day while killing anything that jumps thru cos the neuts and ewar doesnt work on them.

a fix would be to allow only pos ewar mods work on them


Another Super Carrier expert ...

FYI U can neut a SC. U can't fit jump bridge on a SC.


If you read that right he was saying a SC can sit at a hostile's pos that has a jump bridge anchored outside of it and kill the hostile's ships coming through the pos's jumpbridge.

Taharqua10
Posted - 2010.11.16 20:26:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Reidsol
Originally by: Taharqua10


They are currently the ultimate carrier killer & nothing will stand in the way of multiples of these. You need a massive fleet to kill a dozen super caps which are often fielded.




Another " we are lack of effort / creativity / organistion to kill a SC so nerf them " thread.

What makes u stop using stealth bombers against it's FBs ? What makes u not using squads to shoot down it's Fbs ? U guys are just too lazy to come up wih anything else than F1 F2 F3.

One SC won't kill ur shiny chimera in 30 seconds nor two, or u got low skill or lol fit. Actualy it takes some minutes if u got hotdroped by solo SC if by multiple then it's 60-80-100 bil against ur 600 mil ?

Here comes that part when u say u can't bomb in low sec. Well that is pretty cool coz if u remember those times when sensor boosted dreads played docking warriors. Those SC owners who are droping theirs left and right without a thought, they will end up on eve-kill getting their crap fit loled.

SCs are just fine no probs with them.


If you read my post you will see that I'm not complaining about super caps. I'm asking the question are fighter bombers too powerful? I have tested all manner of fits from Triage through to faction tanks & they all die fast. My skills are adequate Linkage so I don't see the need to prove it to you but others will confirm that carriers die pretty fast to a swarm of bombers.Crying or Very sad

Xituqtra
Posted - 2010.11.16 20:31:00 - [34]
 

a nyxputs out 10k dps a triage carrier can tank more then that.

ofcourse it changes a bit if he uses some neuts on you but you can tank one SC with a triage carrier

Makko Gray
Pheno-Tech Industries
Crimson Wings.
Posted - 2010.11.16 20:33:00 - [35]
 

Fairly sure CCP have already announced they're nerfing fighter bombers to reduce their effectiveness on smaller targets. From what I recall they're making the missile fauz missiles so that actually they use the gun mechanics (in part to reduce lag) and using sig radius and tracking to make them more poo vs non capital ships.

Think they'll probably still kill a carrier as quick but the win button won't be quite so giant.

Tom Sasaki
Posted - 2010.11.16 20:34:00 - [36]
 

As was proved back when CO2 & DT lost a couple of titans and a bunch of other capitals a while back. A decentsized well coordinated support fleet can negate the supercarrier DPS.

Stainwagon & friends did that and once those bombers were gone the remaining capfleet in that battle was sitting ducks.

Ofc supers are not easy to counter by small numbers, but if you start getting a decent tackle on them the very eveish way of "supercaps to kill" and killmail *****s means you tend to have the numbers to bring em down decently fast.

Which is also why most larger alliances or coalitions deploy them rarely.

Ofc exceptions are when you are the side with overwhelming numbers and bring in the supercaps to add DPS for killing speed, or as part of a trap

Grog Barrel
Posted - 2010.11.17 03:44:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Aingelluss
You could whine, or you could increase your ****ing income and buy one yourself.
Eve isnt imbalanced, we all have the equal opertuneties when we start out.
SC arent overpowered just because you cant afford one.

How do you think 30 carriers would do vs one supercarrier?


Yeah, how do you think it would do a myrmidon against 30 exequror!11eleven

The escalation from carrier to super is just near to absurd. Nobody is telling these ships should perform the same, but it's pretty obvious, that the jump from a carrier to a SC is as overwhelming as reading how the Jovian ass****d the Amarr fleets.

Last but not least, if you think something is balanced because everyone could afford it by getting enough isk, then you might be missing the meaning of the word balance. Hint: Role.

Lemmy Kravitz
Minmatar
Rebirth.
Posted - 2010.11.17 07:34:00 - [38]
 

not so much super caps but fighter bombers.

Fighter Bombers should go down like watery dog poo when being attacked by fighters. But they don't. There is no good counter to fighter bombers.

Haseo Arashi
Posted - 2010.11.17 07:48:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Haseo Arashi on 17/11/2010 07:49:44
On sisi recent I had the pleasure of going toe to toe in my chimera with two super carriers.

Now idk if the new fb workings nerfed anti standard cap dps. But it took them two about 2.5 minutes to get me into armor.

Granted I was overheating and had improved blue pill active.

Im fine that this is how it was. If I had a support fleet with me there would have been plenty of time to get rr on me.

HOWEVER in the situations where this would occur in tranq. There would be lag (from fleet fight obviously). So rrs might not make it. So a slight nerf maybe. What I would like to see is an ab_fit BS be able to midigate FB damage so effective spider or rr could make the BS FLEET a useful formation again when you know supers are involed

On a side note, I would like to see fighterbombers removed from lowsec. So there is atleast someplace for people not in alliances to play with their caps.

For RP fluff , if I was a major empire I wouldn't want the overwhelming power of fighterbombers in my space…

GeekAlot
Posted - 2010.11.17 08:18:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Taharqua10
I have spent more than 3 years training to fly most capital ships with a reasonable degree of competence.

A Nyx with a swarm of fighter bombers, irrespective of tank or Triage, will kill your carrier in seconds if you don't have a support fleet. The old adage don't fly what you can't afford to loose has never been more true.

I see super caps with bombers as the Eve "I win button". This appears to be unbalanced. I expect to die in my Chimera or other carrier if I'm up against a super cap but I don't expect to die in seconds particularly when your tank has in the region of 85% Omni resists. The hurt pushed out by the Nyx with 20 plus bombers is outrageous & get 2 sets on you & blink & your gone. I had 4 smart bombs on the test server & they barely cycled twice before I was dead from 40 bombers.

There is an argument that a 20 billion ISK ship should decimate all in its path but what about the players who don't have the 20 plus billion to compete on an even keel?

Super caps in my opinion are the nearest thing to an Eve I win button & I wonder if that is a good thing?

Your comments are appreciated but please don't troll. I'm looking through the eyes of a player who can equip a carrier competently then loose it to a super cap in under a minute.Sad
So couse you cant afford an SC you are feeling but hurt, that a SC can kill your carrier with it hehe. Nyx 20 bill thana 1bill ofcouse it should be able to pown your puni ship.

Desya Dak'ann
Caldari
No Ducks Allowed
Posted - 2010.11.17 09:57:00 - [41]
 

Carriers are support vessels, SCs are Support **** vessels. Your supposed to spider tank your Carrier with other carriers to prevent your self getting fisted by two SCs.
In my opinion, SCs are underpowered 2 DDs and its ****ed.
And if you think they are overpowered look at Eve-kill.net recent capital losses.

Jim Tudeski
Posted - 2010.11.17 10:09:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Jim Tudeski on 17/11/2010 10:09:55
Originally by: Desya Dak'ann
Carriers are support vessels, SCs are Support **** vessels. Your supposed to spider tank your Carrier with other carriers to prevent your self getting fisted by two SCs.
In my opinion, SCs are underpowered 2 DDs and its ****ed.
And if you think they are overpowered look at Eve-kill.net recent capital losses.

lolwut. A T2 fit Hel with T1 Rigs would take 6 DD's to get popped without overheating. Over exaggerating is bad, mm'kay?

Aylara
Posted - 2010.11.17 10:33:00 - [43]
 

Capital Energy Neutralizer I

Taharqua10
Posted - 2010.11.17 18:26:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: GeekAlot
Originally by: Taharqua10
I have spent more than 3 years training to fly most capital ships with a reasonable degree of competence.

A Nyx with a swarm of fighter bombers, irrespective of tank or Triage, will kill your carrier in seconds if you don't have a support fleet. The old adage don't fly what you can't afford to loose has never been more true.

I see super caps with bombers as the Eve "I win button". This appears to be unbalanced. I expect to die in my Chimera or other carrier if I'm up against a super cap but I don't expect to die in seconds particularly when your tank has in the region of 85% Omni resists. The hurt pushed out by the Nyx with 20 plus bombers is outrageous & get 2 sets on you & blink & your gone. I had 4 smart bombs on the test server & they barely cycled twice before I was dead from 40 bombers.

There is an argument that a 20 billion ISK ship should decimate all in its path but what about the players who don't have the 20 plus billion to compete on an even keel?

Super caps in my opinion are the nearest thing to an Eve I win button & I wonder if that is a good thing?

Your comments are appreciated but please don't troll. I'm looking through the eyes of a player who can equip a carrier competently then loose it to a super cap in under a minute.Sad
So couse you cant afford an SC you are feeling but hurt, that a SC can kill your carrier with it hehe. Nyx 20 bill thana 1bill ofcouse it should be able to pown your puni ship.


The issue is not ISK- it's again the question are fighter bombers too powerful?

Aiwha
Caldari
101st Space Marine Force
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.11.17 18:49:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Aylara
Capital Energy Neutralizer I


You just blew my mind.


Desya Dak'ann
Caldari
No Ducks Allowed
Posted - 2010.11.17 19:17:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Taharqua10
Originally by: GeekAlot
Originally by: Taharqua10
I have spent more than 3 years training to fly most capital ships with a reasonable degree of competence.

A Nyx with a swarm of fighter bombers, irrespective of tank or Triage, will kill your carrier in seconds if you don't have a support fleet. The old adage don't fly what you can't afford to loose has never been more true.

I see super caps with bombers as the Eve "I win button". This appears to be unbalanced. I expect to die in my Chimera or other carrier if I'm up against a super cap but I don't expect to die in seconds particularly when your tank has in the region of 85% Omni resists. The hurt pushed out by the Nyx with 20 plus bombers is outrageous & get 2 sets on you & blink & your gone. I had 4 smart bombs on the test server & they barely cycled twice before I was dead from 40 bombers.

There is an argument that a 20 billion ISK ship should decimate all in its path but what about the players who don't have the 20 plus billion to compete on an even keel?

Super caps in my opinion are the nearest thing to an Eve I win button & I wonder if that is a good thing?

Your comments are appreciated but please don't troll. I'm looking through the eyes of a player who can equip a carrier competently then loose it to a super cap in under a minute.Sad
So couse you cant afford an SC you are feeling but hurt, that a SC can kill your carrier with it hehe. Nyx 20 bill thana 1bill ofcouse it should be able to pown your puni ship.


The issue is not ISK- it's again the question are fighter bombers too powerful?


The answer is no. You obviously can't fit you Chimera right :P

Taharqua10
Posted - 2010.11.17 19:42:00 - [47]
 

Please share your fit. I would be interested to see. Then I will take your fit onto the test server & see how well it hold ups. I will record the action for you.

Mitsune Konno
Posted - 2010.11.18 03:37:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Taharqua10
Please share your fit. I would be interested to see. Then I will take your fit onto the test server & see how well it hold ups. I will record the action for you.

i'm guessing he already knows how that fit is going to fail, since he's whining about it here.

Narisa Bithon
Caldari
The Motley Crew Reborn
Posted - 2010.11.18 12:29:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Reidsol
Originally by: Narisa Bithon
super carriers are too overpowered

they can sit at a hostile pos with a jump bridge and tank the guns all day while killing anything that jumps thru cos the neuts and ewar doesnt work on them.

a fix would be to allow only pos ewar mods work on them


Another Super Carrier expert ...

FYI U can neut a SC. U can't fit jump bridge on a SC.


i never said u can fit a jumpbridge on an sc......... i said u can sit at a pos WITH a jump bridge and kill whatever jumps thru, dummy

True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
Posted - 2010.11.18 13:45:00 - [50]
 

Thinking about the whole thing in general though, its not that easy to solve. I agree that right now, I think they are too powerful, specifically not of their capacity to kill, but rather how quickly they are at doing it.

The problem is in the nerf, if you reduce their damage (ROF, torp speed, torp damage, no. of drones, flight speed, whatever), you reduce the value of someone risking their Super Carrier on the field in the first place, and they'll end up as the never-seens that titans used to be.

Mutant Caldari
Caldari
Percussive Diplomacy
The Phoenix. Consortium
Posted - 2010.11.18 13:49:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Narisa Bithon
Originally by: Reidsol
Originally by: Narisa Bithon
super carriers are too overpowered

they can sit at a hostile pos with a jump bridge and tank the guns all day while killing anything that jumps thru cos the neuts and ewar doesnt work on them.

a fix would be to allow only pos ewar mods work on them


Another Super Carrier expert ...

FYI U can neut a SC. U can't fit jump bridge on a SC.


i never said u can fit a jumpbridge on an sc......... i said u can sit at a pos WITH a jump bridge and kill whatever jumps thru, dummy

You also stated that neuts don't work on Super Caps which just shows your in-game knowledge on such things. Neutral

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.11.18 17:22:00 - [52]
 

Just wait until lag is fixed.

When alliances start pvp'ing with 100 or more Supes and these things start going pop, you'll see individuals start shying away from deploying them. AND THEN, you'll see FB's becoming 'balanced' (cause no one wants to fly a super)

Larry Wickes
Posted - 2010.11.18 18:25:00 - [53]
 

One time after a Home Defense fleet we decided to go for a roam. We knew of a location where a Super Carrier usually was and decided we'd try and kill it. The FC was in dire need of Scorpion pilots. Naturally, I volunteered.

I was invited into a channel lead by another FC just for the Scorpion pilots. He linked a killmail and told us to fit our Scorpions in a similar manner. The fit consisted of an ECM Burst, Shield tank, armour tank, and smart bombs.

Then, we were given another link. It was to a screenshot. It showed an EVE Dev replying. Saying that because ECM Burst is not a form of direct Ewar (I.E you don't lock targets and hit only one, it's an AoE ability) that Super Carriers are not immune to them. No, I do not have the screen shot and you can call me a troll all you want, it was some time ago and I have lost the screen shot since then. I'm just giving an anecdote of what took place one time in a fleet.

In total we had six Scorpion pilots when we set out. The tactic was that we would use an ECM Burst every five seconds, and hoping that we could permajam the Super Carrier. A Scorpion pilot with maxed skills will have a 15.75 strength vs a Super Carriers 150, but with enough doing it we can jam him. (10% chance per ECM Burst.)

When our scout arrived at the system we unfortunately found out that the Super Carrier pilot was not there. We refit/reshiped out Scorpions and continued the roam.

So, yes, we didn't get to try this tactic but if it true as said in the screen shot that an ECM Burst can indeed jam a Super Carrier. Well, a small Scorpion gang could permajam it. I'm sure someone has the ability to test this if they wanted to. With an 18km Optimal and 12km Falloff, it could be effective.

Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2010.11.18 18:44:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Bartholomeus Crane on 18/11/2010 18:44:59
Can I just point out the blatantly obvious again: Carriers, indeed all capital ships, are no supposed to be solo-pwn mobiles, not matter how much they cost. Without a proper support fleet they should die quickly to a well-setup opponent. That this happens doesn't make fighterbombers overpowered, it makes the solo carrier honour tanker look stupid. As it should be.

So, if this happens to you, stop blaming everything and everyone but you. You know full well it's your own fault; you should have brought friends. If you don't have any, make some. If you can't make some, you should consider flying something else. It's really that simple.

TSX01
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.18 19:34:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
Here is how I see it.

they wanted Super carriers to be a counter for capital ships.


well ok that's cool.

And carriers have an edge on battleships right? Their fighters tear through battleships.

Allright but wait, what do you use to kill a super cap?

Well according to a dev comment the new missile change makes it so that bombers can barely damage battle cruisers abd below.


So then that means we should bring BCs and smaller to fight a supercarrier?

no that won't work, you'd never break it's tank...

unless they actually pushed forward with...
SUBSYSTEM TARGETING.

If super carriers had weak points with small sig radiuses that only smaller weapons could hit, then the counter for a super carrier could be battlecruisers. and cruiser even for smaller subsystems.

I'm thinking things like


Targeting computer
for cruiser sized ships and lower, disabling this makes it so that the capital ship can not target these smaller ships at all.

Warp engines
Once taken down, it goes into auto repair mode, and the ship can not warp for 5-10 minutes. make it immune to all other versions of Ewarfare.

Other parts to lower its resistances, and so on.

I think it would be awesome if there were shield generators even that as you take down allow you to go in for the kill and hit the ships power generator, which blows up the whole ship, on hp separate from the total hp. Making them all beefy vs titans and dreadnoughts.


then you would need smaller ships to defend your capital ships.

And so on.


Great ideas +1

Taharqua10
Posted - 2010.11.19 22:45:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
Edited by: Bartholomeus Crane on 18/11/2010 18:44:59
Can I just point out the blatantly obvious again: Carriers, indeed all capital ships, are no supposed to be solo-pwn mobiles, not matter how much they cost. Without a proper support fleet they should die quickly to a well-setup opponent. That this happens doesn't make fighterbombers overpowered, it makes the solo carrier honour tanker look stupid. As it should be.

So, if this happens to you, stop blaming everything and everyone but you. You know full well it's your own fault; you should have brought friends. If you don't have any, make some. If you can't make some, you should consider flying something else. It's really that simple.


If you read through the whole post carefully you will see that the question is not about the rights or wrongs of use it is the question of the bomber being too powerful & nothing more. I'm not going down the road of discussing when & how caps should be used.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
Posted - 2010.11.19 23:03:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Taharqua10
I have spent more than 3 years training to fly most capital ships with a reasonable degree of competence.




Ninja super cap character sale thread?

Who knows. Could be. Might try it myself, some time vOv

Mr Epeen Cool

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.11.19 23:19:00 - [58]
 

Increase sig radius of FB's.


Miss President
Caldari
SOLARIS ASTERIUS
Posted - 2010.11.19 23:23:00 - [59]
 

Whoever invests years into training for supercap and isk to buy and fit it deserves such a ship.

Originally by: Taharqua10
...
There is an argument that a 20 billion ISK ship should decimate all in its path but what about the players who don't have the 20 plus billion to compete on an even keel?



Simply, don't stay in super capitals way alone in your carrier. Funny to think that anyone would imagine to do it.

CommmanderInChief
Posted - 2010.11.19 23:55:00 - [60]
 

ok lets be as honest as possible, no bias opinion, cos I do feel alot of opinions are based on people that have SCs and have a please dont nerf me response, so naturally against anything like this.

SCs for 20billion are not overpowered, tbh a carrier is about 5% the cost of a SC, so i would assume it should get owned by a SC, i be ****ed if i sepnt 20 billion and it didnt do much.

However for alot of ppl having a SC is out of reach, training the skills, the cost to get those skills and ofc raising the isk to actually buy a SC, perhaps thats ok, however the problem is how easy it is for alliances to build and make these, The cost is nothing to an alliance, and thats the issue, they can build these for fun. So what if they lose 5,10,20 SCs, they have prob 50 in reserve.
Its crazy how mnay scs, titans there are now. Its the roaming gang now, no more snipe bs, lets bring 30 SCs or more. Is this really how eve is becoming?
People are now even hotdropping a single BS with a SC, just cos they can..Eve is no longer about skill, its about hotdropping SCs, not great IMO
Its blob vs blob and there are no consequence, CCP allow allainces to make so much isk, ts irrelevant and thats what bothers me.




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