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Taharqua10
Posted - 2010.11.15 21:19:00 - [1]
 

I have spent more than 3 years training to fly most capital ships with a reasonable degree of competence.

A Nyx with a swarm of fighter bombers, irrespective of tank or Triage, will kill your carrier in seconds if you don't have a support fleet. The old adage don't fly what you can't afford to loose has never been more true.

I see super caps with bombers as the Eve "I win button". This appears to be unbalanced. I expect to die in my Chimera or other carrier if I'm up against a super cap but I don't expect to die in seconds particularly when your tank has in the region of 85% Omni resists. The hurt pushed out by the Nyx with 20 plus bombers is outrageous & get 2 sets on you & blink & your gone. I had 4 smart bombs on the test server & they barely cycled twice before I was dead from 40 bombers.

There is an argument that a 20 billion ISK ship should decimate all in its path but what about the players who don't have the 20 plus billion to compete on an even keel?

Super caps in my opinion are the nearest thing to an Eve I win button & I wonder if that is a good thing?

Your comments are appreciated but please don't troll. I'm looking through the eyes of a player who can equip a carrier competently then loose it to a super cap in under a minute.Sad

Ur235
Mind Games.
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2010.11.15 21:32:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Ur235 on 15/11/2010 21:35:11

Carriers are meant to be a "support" vessel rewind a few years and people thought a carrier was an "IWIN" button

Only problem I have with super carriers is there stupid tank afterall super carriers are also meant to be a support vessel but on a much bigger scale if they find them by themselves they should be able to die much quicker than they do atm and the ewarfare immunity is completley ******ed I think only titans should have that ability

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.15 22:15:00 - [3]
 

Quote:
I have spent more than 3 years training to fly most capital ships with a reasonable degree of competence.

A titan with a doomsday, irrespective of tank or Triage, will kill your carrier instantly even if you have a support fleet. The old adage don't fly what you can't afford to loose has never been more true.

I see titans with doomsdays as the Eve "I win button". This appears to be unbalanced. I expect to die in my Chimera or other carrier if I'm up against a super cap but I don't expect to die instantly particularly when your tank has in the region of 85% Omni resists. The hurt pushed out by an Avatar with a doomsday is outrageous & get a lock on you & blink & your gone. I had 4 smart bombs on the test server & they barely cycled twice before I was dead from 40 bombers.


I know, I'm verging on trolling here but the point still stands. Everything in the game is expensive to some people and cheap to others. I remember in my first few days when the money to buy a Caracal seemed like big bucks to me. right now, I think carriers are... expensive, but affordable.

Some alliances think titans and supercarriers are cheap.

The nice thing about EVE is that, by and large, you don't have to throw an equivalent amount of money at something to kill it. A couple of HACs can happily bring down a tech3 or a marauder several times more expensive than they are. I've seen vids of dreadnought fleets getting taken apart by a few battleships with a single carrier in support.

yes, you'll lose your carrier quickly against a Nyx. but if you throw enough carriers at it to bring it down, I bet you'll find their combined value of all those carriers is still less than the Nyx cost.

Narisa Bithon
Caldari
The Motley Crew Reborn
Posted - 2010.11.15 22:21:00 - [4]
 

super carriers are too overpowered

they can sit at a hostile pos with a jump bridge and tank the guns all day while killing anything that jumps thru cos the neuts and ewar doesnt work on them.

a fix would be to allow only pos ewar mods work on them

PCaBoo
Ammo and Tag
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2010.11.15 23:04:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: PCaBoo on 15/11/2010 23:06:47
Originally by: Narisa Bithon
super carriers are too overpowered

they can sit at a hostile pos with a jump bridge and tank the guns all day while killing anything that jumps thru cos the neuts and ewar doesnt work on them.

a fix would be to allow only pos ewar mods work on them

Since when did neuts not work on SC's?

edit: and no SC's and FB's are not too powerful. They're easily killed, with some concerted effort. Just because your carrier isn't on the top of the food chain anymore, doesn't mean it's op. By your logic, that would mean battleships should be able to solokill your triage carrier.

TriadSte
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.15 23:05:00 - [6]
 

I suggest they are fine as they are. The saying "You get what you pay for" applies to everything in life and video games it seems.

When paying 20 billion for 1 ship your gonna want it kick some serious a$$. Owning a Nyx should make you feel like a winner.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.11.15 23:14:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: TriadSte
Owning a Nyx should make you feel like a winner.


QFT!

Most people are too embarrassed to be seen in any other mothership.


Lord Evangelian
Gallente
The White Mantle
Malum Exuro
Posted - 2010.11.16 02:32:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: TriadSte
Owning a Nyx should make you feel like a winner.


QFT!

Most people are too embarrassed to be seen in any other mothership.




+1isk, I also agree, I cannot wait till I get my nyx... +1isk. I had a carrier, and that was Okay, without a fleet to fly into battle with, (+1isk) I dont see the point in having one, when I get my wallet back to being what I consider healthy, +1isk, I intend to get back into mthe capital fray, +1isk. Oh, sorry I was counting my moneys. I have enough for 2 rocks of veld and 1 unit of tobaco...whoa, that was an interesting night...remind me never to do boosters again...

Morux
Posted - 2010.11.16 02:51:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: TriadSte
I suggest they are fine as they are. The saying "You get what you pay for" applies to everything in life and video games it seems.

When paying 20 billion for 1 ship your gonna want it kick some serious x. Owning a Nyx should make you feel like a winner.


Gotta agree here to a pretty large extent... carriers take about 1/10 the mineral requirements of a SC. Land 10 normal carriers on the field equiped with moderate remote reps, and a SC will be in trouble. It sucks to know that if you get in the way of a SC and aren't prepared for it, you'll be wiped out, but it's really a similar situation on any battlefield - one battleship against 10 isn't going to last long. Definite sting to lose a carrier but to lose a SC is a much bigger hit to the owner imo - very expensive loss if pulled off. Pitting a carrier against a SC 1 on 1 and you do get a sense that the SC is overpowered... but the cost difference in ships is pretty high between the two.

cpu939
Gallente
Volatile Nature
White Noise.
Posted - 2010.11.16 03:19:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: cpu939 on 16/11/2010 03:20:16
Originally by: Taharqua10

A Nyx with a swarm of fighter bombers, irrespective of tank or Triage, will kill your carrier in seconds if you don't have a support fleet.


are u telling us that a single nyx can kill your chimera in seconds regardless of how you set your tank up?

if that is the case might i say to up your engineering skills

as to the titan would you like the aoe dd back?

removing the aoe dd opened up low cost pvp drake fleets before 1 titan would have wiped out the fleet now it takes a fleet to win not one player

also look at eve kills the killboard site sc are dieing everyday to none cap fleets ....ok weekly


Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2010.11.16 03:44:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Morux
Originally by: TriadSte
I suggest they are fine as they are. The saying "You get what you pay for" applies to everything in life and video games it seems.

When paying 20 billion for 1 ship your gonna want it kick some serious x. Owning a Nyx should make you feel like a winner.


Gotta agree here to a pretty large extent... carriers take about 1/10 the mineral requirements of a SC. Land 10 normal carriers on the field equiped with moderate remote reps, and a SC will be in trouble. It sucks to know that if you get in the way of a SC and aren't prepared for it, you'll be wiped out, but it's really a similar situation on any battlefield - one battleship against 10 isn't going to last long. Definite sting to lose a carrier but to lose a SC is a much bigger hit to the owner imo - very expensive loss if pulled off. Pitting a carrier against a SC 1 on 1 and you do get a sense that the SC is overpowered... but the cost difference in ships is pretty high between the two.


I don't like this at all. Isk should never be an IWIN button, it is against the nature of EVE. I have killed HACs in my t1 cruiser before and a t1 cruiser costs 3-5m compared to a 100m+ HAC. That is more like a factor of 20-30 are you saying that HACs should be boosted to wtfpwn all t1 cruisers in any situation? I say that isk shouldn't matter more than a smart fitting and taking advantage of your ship against the disadvantages of your enemies ship.

Fighter-bombers are obviously overpowered but you can't hear that over the overjoyed supercarrier owners that are once again vaulted to wtfpwnmobile status. The only thing I like about the new supercarriers is that you can kill the carrier RR blobs and thus means more capital and supercapital deaths but what beats a blob of supercarriers?

Culmen
Caldari
Culmenation
Posted - 2010.11.16 04:08:00 - [12]
 

Really super carriers are waaay over powered compared to other ships because they can do high damage to ALL ship types, while simultaneously not limiting mobility.

Compared to the regular carrier:
it's damage is stupidly high. There really is no comparison
Compared to a dreadnought:
The SC can deal almost twice the amount of damage as a Dread.
The dread also has to commit to a 10 minute siege cycle, while the super carrier can move and is immune to warp scramblers to boot.
The dreads gun's can't hit BS sized targets and below that are in close, the SC can launch fighters and kill BS targets close in, or heck unleash a swarm of 20 Warrior IIs and shred interceptors.
The Moros somewhat emulates this, but still relies on guns.

The titan can OMGWTFPWN one target, but only once every 10 minuets.
Or use it's guns, but those track poorly.

So yeah, compared to everything else in the capital game, the SC wins.

Possible fixes: Fighter Bomber Siege Module.
10 minute cycle, can't launch Fighter Bombers while it's not active.
Would remove one of the most overpowered advantages the SC has over dreads.
The SC would still have a DPS and versatility advantage over a dread, but that would be compensated by it's cost

RP fluff it saying it's the command module that allows compact citadel torpedoes to penetrate defenses.
Would also explain why I can't mount one on my Ibis.

Ozmodan
Minmatar
Massively Mob
Posted - 2010.11.16 04:33:00 - [13]
 

Eve has always had a problem, ships like the Nyx are just the crux of the matter. Big ships should never be an I win button without support ships. All capitals, if flown solo, should be a sitting duck for a fleet.


PCaBoo
Ammo and Tag
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2010.11.16 05:04:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Ozmodan
Eve has always had a problem, ships like the Nyx are just the crux of the matter. Big ships should never be an I win button without support ships. All capitals, if flown solo, should be a sitting duck for a fleet.




but they are sitting ducks to a fleet. =\

Atius Tirawa
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.11.16 07:21:00 - [15]
 

The ships are fine, except that the Hel can use a light buff. But yah, fighterbombers are very much overpowered. They need a serious DPS and tracking nurf.

I belive that moms are the premier logistics ships in eve, not a replacement for dreads.

PCaBoo
Ammo and Tag
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2010.11.16 07:37:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Atius Tirawa
The ships are fine, except that the Hel can use a light buff. But yah, fighterbombers are very much overpowered. They need a serious DPS and tracking nurf.

I belive that moms are the premier logistics ships in eve, not a replacement for dreads.

they were re-roled for anti-cap warfare. They lost their ability to use Triage modules. They can't hit control towers (for any appreciable damage compared to a battleship). Everything is fine. People need to stop thinking that a single ship is what's wrong with the game.

Galleter
Posted - 2010.11.16 08:55:00 - [17]
 

you have one good ship in eve worth its price.
stop screaming... just buy it!

Taharqua10
Posted - 2010.11.16 09:14:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Taharqua10 on 16/11/2010 09:18:03
Originally by: cpu939
Edited by: cpu939 on 16/11/2010 03:20:16
Originally by: Taharqua10

A Nyx with a swarm of fighter bombers, irrespective of tank or Triage, will kill your carrier in seconds if you don't have a support fleet.


are u telling us that a single nyx can kill your chimera in seconds regardless of how you set your tank up?

if that is the case might i say to up your engineering skills


as to the titan would you like the aoe dd back?

removing the aoe dd opened up low cost pvp drake fleets before 1 titan would have wiped out the fleet now it takes a fleet to win not one player

also look at eve kills the killboard site sc are dieing everyday to none cap fleets ....ok weekly





These are the skills of my Chimera Pilot- Linkage I believe that these skills are good enough to fly a Chimera & if you come up against a Nyx with 20 bombers or more, even in Triage- you will die irrespective of tanking ability through skills alone. If you do not believe me test the scenario. You will be surprised at how fast you die & that is my point of concern.

Aingelluss
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.11.16 09:33:00 - [19]
 

You could whine, or you could increase your ****ing income and buy one yourself.
Eve isnt imbalanced, we all have the equal opertuneties when we start out.
SC arent overpowered just because you cant afford one.

How do you think 30 carriers would do vs one supercarrier?

True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
Posted - 2010.11.16 09:48:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Taharqua10
I have spent more than 3 years training to fly most capital ships with a reasonable degree of competence.

A Nyx with a swarm of fighter bombers, irrespective of tank or Triage, will kill your carrier in seconds if you don't have a support fleet. The old adage don't fly what you can't afford to loose has never been more true.

I see super caps with bombers as the Eve "I win button". This appears to be unbalanced. I expect to die in my Chimera or other carrier if I'm up against a super cap but I don't expect to die in seconds particularly when your tank has in the region of 85% Omni resists. The hurt pushed out by the Nyx with 20 plus bombers is outrageous & get 2 sets on you & blink & your gone. I had 4 smart bombs on the test server & they barely cycled twice before I was dead from 40 bombers.

There is an argument that a 20 billion ISK ship should decimate all in its path but what about the players who don't have the 20 plus billion to compete on an even keel?

Super caps in my opinion are the nearest thing to an Eve I win button & I wonder if that is a good thing?

Your comments are appreciated but please don't troll. I'm looking through the eyes of a player who can equip a carrier competently then loose it to a super cap in under a minute.Sad


I agree, and I think the important thing people need to note about this is not that people think Super Carriers shouldn't ****, they just shouldn't **** that quickly.

I'm working towards my own Nyx right now, out of interest I had one of my corp mates attack my Thanatos with a full bomber squad, so I know what it would be like if/when it happens in a serious fight, I was quite shocked at how quickly they shredded my armor.

In large cap fleets, strategy goes out the door, if one team has more Super Carriers, they will take out the hostile Capital ships one by one and the last team with a Super Carrier left on the field will kill all other capitals (bar large titan intervention).

It does to some degree fall down to the support craft, since of course its not much good if those remaining super carriers get tackled and ganked, but considering there are only 4 ships in the entire game capable of directly warp scrambling these ships, its a little hard to lock them down unless the enemy is expecting them.

True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
Posted - 2010.11.16 09:53:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: PCaBoo
they were re-roled for anti-cap warfare. They lost their ability to use Triage modules. They can't hit control towers (for any appreciable damage compared to a battleship). Everything is fine. People need to stop thinking that a single ship is what's wrong with the game.


Whilst you're right that they can't help reinforce a control tower, they can and are now often used to super-fast incap everything on them. When one of the older version of Tri were in Pure Blind, they would drop 3 on a jump bridge, incap it and jump out before it was possible for anyone to react.

That 5 minute effort, with very very little risk, causes 4-5 carriers to have to sit around for 20-30minutes, putting themselves a huge risk, as well as hindering the alliances Jump Bridge.

I think in this case though, this isn't the fault of super carriers being Overpowered, more that control towers need a buff.

Neyem Praetorius
Posted - 2010.11.16 10:05:00 - [22]
 

SC are sort of overpowered, basically same DPS and EHP as a titan for a third the cost. WTB nerf, and I say that as a nyx owner.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2010.11.16 10:12:00 - [23]
 

Here is how I see it.

they wanted Super carriers to be a counter for capital ships.


well ok that's cool.

And carriers have an edge on battleships right? Their fighters tear through battleships.

Allright but wait, what do you use to kill a super cap?

Well according to a dev comment the new missile change makes it so that bombers can barely damage battle cruisers abd below.


So then that means we should bring BCs and smaller to fight a supercarrier?

no that won't work, you'd never break it's tank...

unless they actually pushed forward with...
SUBSYSTEM TARGETING.

If super carriers had weak points with small sig radiuses that only smaller weapons could hit, then the counter for a super carrier could be battlecruisers. and cruiser even for smaller subsystems.

I'm thinking things like


Targeting computer
for cruiser sized ships and lower, disabling this makes it so that the capital ship can not target these smaller ships at all.

Warp engines
Once taken down, it goes into auto repair mode, and the ship can not warp for 5-10 minutes. make it immune to all other versions of Ewarfare.

Other parts to lower its resistances, and so on.

I think it would be awesome if there were shield generators even that as you take down allow you to go in for the kill and hit the ships power generator, which blows up the whole ship, on hp separate from the total hp. Making them all beefy vs titans and dreadnoughts.


then you would need smaller ships to defend your capital ships.

And so on.

Taharqua10
Posted - 2010.11.16 10:15:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Aingelluss
You could whine, or you could increase your ****ing income and buy one yourself.
Eve isnt imbalanced, we all have the equal opertuneties when we start out.
SC arent overpowered just because you cant afford one.

How do you think 30 carriers would do vs one supercarrier?


Do you see any whining in my post? I don't. I can buy a super cap if I wish. However my argument is about balance & the question remains- are fighter bombers too powerful?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.11.16 10:34:00 - [25]
 

What are they overpowered against, though?

The only way for a ship to be "properly" overpowered is if it's a rock-proof scissor made out of paper and thus covers all areas. Fighter-bombers, from what (admittedly little) I've seen of them are mainly a problem because they are a little too good at hitting stuff that's smaller than was perhaps originally intended, and it sounds like they're going to address this in Incursion.

On the other hand, there's still the regular fighters for the smaller stuff, so "fixing" FBs alone might not solve that particular problem…

Taharqua10
Posted - 2010.11.16 10:50:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Taharqua10 on 16/11/2010 11:01:01
Originally by: Tippia
What are they overpowered against, though?

The only way for a ship to be "properly" overpowered is if it's a rock-proof scissor made out of paper and thus covers all areas. Fighter-bombers, from what (admittedly little) I've seen of them are mainly a problem because they are a little too good at hitting stuff that's smaller than was perhaps originally intended, and it sounds like they're going to address this in Incursion.

On the other hand, there's still the regular fighters for the smaller stuff, so "fixing" FBs alone might not solve that particular problem…


I can answer that question. A carrier's role is primary a support ship which gives valuable assistance to ships in need. Be it capacitor, shield or armour repair. How can this role be achieved if one super cap could shred a whole Thanatos or Chimera support fleet? They are currently the ultimate carrier killer & nothing will stand in the way of multiples of these. You need a massive fleet to kill a dozen super caps which are often fielded.

Super caps can tank an obscene amount of damage whilst dishing out the hurt & in conflicts they most definitely do not fly alone. If they don't get tackled and the hurt become too much they simply warp away.

I'm not saying that carriers should not die but not die in 30 seconds and that is the prime concern of my post. Carriers do not tank enough against the might of fighter bombers to be effective on the field. What is the point of having to rep your carriers when they should be repairing your combat pilots and not themselves?


Narisa Bithon
Caldari
The Motley Crew Reborn
Posted - 2010.11.16 15:48:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: PCaBoo

Since when did neuts not work on SC's?




neutralising is ewar - sc are immune to all ewar

Aera Aiana
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.16 16:01:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: TriadSte
Owning a Nyx should make you feel like a winner.


By "owning", do you mean possession or dispossession? Very Happy

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2010.11.16 16:21:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Aera Aiana
Originally by: TriadSte
Owning a Nyx should make you feel like a winner.


By "owning", do you mean possession or dispossession? Very Happy


both YARRRR!!

Reidsol
Blood Covenant
Posted - 2010.11.16 17:22:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Taharqua10


They are currently the ultimate carrier killer & nothing will stand in the way of multiples of these. You need a massive fleet to kill a dozen super caps which are often fielded.




Another " we are lack of effort / creativity / organistion to kill a SC so nerf them " thread.

What makes u stop using stealth bombers against it's FBs ? What makes u not using squads to shoot down it's Fbs ? U guys are just too lazy to come up wih anything else than F1 F2 F3.

One SC won't kill ur shiny chimera in 30 seconds nor two, or u got low skill or lol fit. Actualy it takes some minutes if u got hotdroped by solo SC if by multiple then it's 60-80-100 bil against ur 600 mil ?

Here comes that part when u say u can't bomb in low sec. Well that is pretty cool coz if u remember those times when sensor boosted dreads played docking warriors. Those SC owners who are droping theirs left and right without a thought, they will end up on eve-kill getting their crap fit loled.

SCs are just fine no probs with them.


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