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blankseplocked desync is back with a vengence
 
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Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
Posted - 2010.11.16 13:30:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Urgg Boolean
Ya know that odd phenomenon when invoking a tractor beam? At first, the numbers in dicate the target is many times farther away than it is supposed to be. Then it clears and behaves normally. Is this related to the desync problem ?


whats up with the tractor beam and item being targeted very briefely appearing the opposite side of your ship when you activate the module before snapping backto its 'real' position?

CCP GingerDude

Posted - 2010.11.16 13:40:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Urgg Boolean
Ya know that odd phenomenon when invoking a tractor beam? At first, the numbers in dicate the target is many times farther away than it is supposed to be. Then it clears and behaves normally. Is this related to the desync problem ?


No, the tractor beam snapping is unrelated but since you mention it, it got fixed last week in the dev branch. Also rubberbanding when dropping out of warp is also mostly fixed. I'm debugging the desync issue right now. Expect a client patch soon...

Scorpyn
Caldari
Infinitus Odium
Posted - 2010.11.16 13:44:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: CCP GingerDude
...I'm debugging the desync issue right now. Expect a client patch soon...

Shocked

Blasphemour
Posted - 2010.11.16 14:22:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: CCP GingerDude
Originally by: Urgg Boolean
Ya know that odd phenomenon when invoking a tractor beam? At first, the numbers in dicate the target is many times farther away than it is supposed to be. Then it clears and behaves normally. Is this related to the desync problem ?


No, the tractor beam snapping is unrelated but since you mention it, it got fixed last week in the dev branch. Also rubberbanding when dropping out of warp is also mostly fixed. I'm debugging the desync issue right now. Expect a client patch soon...


Not sure if siriuz Shocked

Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2010.11.16 15:04:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: CCP GingerDude
I'm debugging the desync issue right now. Expect a client patch soon...



Rysdan Phar
Posted - 2010.11.16 15:34:00 - [36]
 

good to hear ccp are working on a patch to fix the client desync when bumped.

i just hope those who lost expensive ships because of the client getting desync'd so easily get refunded their ships. its only fair.

Memorya
Posted - 2010.11.16 16:47:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Memorya on 16/11/2010 17:16:01
Edited by: Memorya on 16/11/2010 16:49:06


Originally by: CCP GingerDude
Originally by: Urgg Boolean
Ya know that odd phenomenon when invoking a tractor beam? At first, the numbers in dicate the target is many times farther away than it is supposed to be. Then it clears and behaves normally. Is this related to the desync problem ?


No, the tractor beam snapping is unrelated but since you mention it, it got fixed last week in the dev branch. Also rubberbanding when dropping out of warp is also mostly fixed. I'm debugging the desync issue right now. Expect a client patch soon...


Can you guys also fix how the tractor beam behaves (always grabing the items behind instead of front wiev- visual bug).

Edit: When you salvage, you can't see the salvage beam anymore.

Tnx Smile

ceaon
Posted - 2010.11.16 17:04:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Pesky LaRue
Originally by: TriadSte
I would have thought desync to be a "minor" problem for a good programmer/expert. Considering how difficult it is to create patchs, additional content etc.
Just out of interest, what do you do?

dude just click on face http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=author&p=CCP%20Atropos

Barakkus
Posted - 2010.11.16 17:42:00 - [39]
 

ITT: self proclaimed software engineers telling CCP how to fix their game.Rolling Eyes

ceaon
Posted - 2010.11.16 19:51:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: CCP GingerDude

No, the tractor beam snapping is unrelated but since you mention it, it got fixed last week in the dev branch. Also rubberbanding when dropping out of warp is also mostly fixed. I'm debugging the desync issue right now. Expect a client patch soon...

btw the problem whit ejecting 50 titans from the cargo hold is fixed ? i really want to do that on TQ for Christmas

Troll Bridgington
Incompertus INC
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.11.16 20:04:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: CCP GingerDude
I'm debugging the desync issue right now. Expect a client patch soon...


Shocked Reported for trolling?

Dlardrageth
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Posted - 2010.11.16 20:14:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Troll Bridgington
Originally by: CCP GingerDude
I'm debugging the desync issue right now. Expect a client patch soon...


Shocked Reported for trolling?


Not really, the new CCP-ish definition of "soon" is actually more like "~18 months~" reliable sources tell me... Razz

CCP GingerDude

Posted - 2010.11.16 20:42:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: ceaon
Originally by: CCP GingerDude

No, the tractor beam snapping is unrelated but since you mention it, it got fixed last week in the dev branch. Also rubberbanding when dropping out of warp is also mostly fixed. I'm debugging the desync issue right now. Expect a client patch soon...

btw the problem whit ejecting 50 titans from the cargo hold is fixed ? i really want to do that on TQ for Christmas


Ah, nice reference there ;)

But desync problem found and fixed locally. It has to do with different number of bits between client and server when you orbit something...involves trigonometry and stuff. Deployment of fix (requires client patch) will be sometime within the next two weeks.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2010.11.16 21:41:00 - [44]
 

That's why Ive never seen this bug, I almost never use orbit!

Dev branch? You guys must have a ton of versions of Eve. I'm surprised it has not driven all of you stark raving mad.




.....or has it?

Ervol Libra
Amarr
Pinky and the Brain corp
Posted - 2010.11.16 21:57:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Vincent Athena
That's why Ive never seen this bug, I almost never use orbit!

Dev branch? You guys must have a ton of versions of Eve. I'm surprised it has not driven all of you stark raving mad.




.....or has it?


And then a wrong one gets uploaded to tranq and we have yet another not fully fixing patch Razz

Scorpyn
Caldari
Infinitus Odium
Posted - 2010.11.16 23:12:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: CCP GingerDude
But desync problem found and fixed locally. It has to do with different number of bits between client and server when you orbit something...involves trigonometry and stuff. Deployment of fix (requires client patch) will be sometime within the next two weeks.

Hmm...

I'd be very surprised if it actually turns out that this will fix all desyncs, but it'll be very nice to get that fix Smile

CCP Habakuk

Posted - 2010.11.17 11:59:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: ceaon
btw the problem whit ejecting 50 titans from the cargo hold is fixed ? i really want to do that on TQ for Christmas


This was actually my first test, when trying to reproduce this desync problem - but the titans behaved very well. It got more interesting when checking NPCs, which were orbiting other objects (and colliding with something while orbiting)...

Yon89
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.11.17 12:15:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: CCP Habakuk
Originally by: ceaon
btw the problem whit ejecting 50 titans from the cargo hold is fixed ? i really want to do that on TQ for Christmas


This was actually my first test, when trying to reproduce this desync problem - but the titans behaved very well. It got more interesting when checking NPCs, which were orbiting other objects (and colliding with something while orbiting)...


This is exactly where i saw my dysync rat showed at 45km but sentries refused stating that the target was over 60km. The rat was bumping into a structure on my client.

Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
Posted - 2010.11.17 13:58:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Siiee
How would a precision error cause the server and client simulations to diverge?

Actually if you want to watch precision errors in action just "look at" another ship while warping away (I don't remember exactly how to make the look stick, you might have to use the advanced camera) The points jittering around and model breaking up just before the camera snaps back to your own ship is a classic example of FP precision.


I guess that's "kinda" confirmed now. The server probably uses full precision while the client gets a reduced number of bits over the network and ends up with a wrong/different result when performing the same calculation, or something like that. At least that's how I interpret the CCP answer. Might be even worse than a floating point issue if they use fixed point in network traffic.


Darth Vapour
Posted - 2010.11.17 14:52:00 - [50]
 

Just remove collisions, problem solved and massive performance gained. If my missiles can fly through asteroids why can't I ?

Ogogov
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.11.17 16:59:00 - [51]
 

unrelated note- It's good seeing all the devs posting and interacting in this thread.


Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.11.17 20:51:00 - [52]
 

I think NPCs are forgetting to bump but server still believes they are stuck, typical PvE crap where NPCs are known to get stuck are now not instead are getting desyned, so now while something is 60km away it is showing as 18km.

Morast
Kuiper Belt Industries
Posted - 2010.11.18 04:51:00 - [53]
 

I really am glad that there are now ccp devs that are fully up to speed with the nitty gritty code at the bottom of the software stack.

It means they can actually fix these more contrary bugs quickly.

Or did they finally hire the right person?
One persons impossible is another persons easy. :D

CCP Explorer

Posted - 2010.11.18 08:35:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Pan Crastus
Originally by: Siiee
How would a precision error cause the server and client simulations to diverge?

Actually if you want to watch precision errors in action just "look at" another ship while warping away (I don't remember exactly how to make the look stick, you might have to use the advanced camera) The points jittering around and model breaking up just before the camera snaps back to your own ship is a classic example of FP precision.
I guess that's "kinda" confirmed now. The server probably uses full precision while the client gets a reduced number of bits over the network and ends up with a wrong/different result when performing the same calculation, or something like that. At least that's how I interpret the CCP answer. Might be even worse than a floating point issue if they use fixed point in network traffic.
The issue is slightly different. Both the client and the server are using full precision but obviously the client is using 32 bit math libraries and the server is using 64 bit math libraries (we are using the built-in math libraries in Windows).

It turned out that when operating on 32 bit numbers then the results were almost the same (more on that later) but when operating on 64 bit numbers then some calculations (in particular sin() and cos()) would diverge noticeably quickly. After 64 Bit Inventory then item identifiers can be true 64 bit numbers, in particular the item ID's for NPC's are up in that range.

So, a new problem you may ask? No, this has in fact been a problem since we moved the EVE Server to 64 bit in Quantum Rise. That's when the server starting using different 64 bit math libraries from the 32 bit math libraries that the client uses. The difference, however, was small enough when operating on small numbers (that is while the item identifiers were still 32 bit) that it was not really noticeable. We actually came up with a reproduction case this week for the 32 bit scenario but it requires more than 30 minutes of orbiting while constantly getting bumped.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.11.18 08:42:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Mag''s on 18/11/2010 08:44:16
Originally by: CCP Explorer
The issue is slightly different. Both the client and the server are using full precision but obviously the client is using 32 bit math libraries and the server is using 64 bit math libraries (we are using the built-in math libraries in Windows).

It turned out that when operating on 32 bit numbers then the results were almost the same (more on that later) but when operating on 64 bit numbers then some calculations (in particular sin() and cos()) would diverge noticeably quickly. After 64 Bit Inventory then item identifiers can be true 64 bit numbers, in particular the item ID's for NPC's are up in that range.

So, a new problem you may ask? No, this has in fact been a problem since we moved the EVE Server to 64 bit in Quantum Rise. That's when the server starting using different 64 bit math libraries from the 32 bit math libraries that the client uses. The difference, however, was small enough when operating on small numbers (that is while the item identifiers were still 32 bit) that it was not really noticeable. We actually came up with a reproduction case this week for the 32 bit scenario but it requires more than 30 minutes of orbiting while constantly getting bumped.

So any chance we get a 64bit client option soon, so we can choose to completely avoid these issues?

Scorpyn
Caldari
Infinitus Odium
Posted - 2010.11.18 09:07:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Scorpyn on 18/11/2010 09:16:38
Originally by: CCP Explorer

So, a new problem you may ask? No, this has in fact been a problem since we moved the EVE Server to 64 bit in Quantum Rise.


No, desyncs are a lot older, but maybe you've already fixed the previous issue(s)? I haven't read the patch notes from the last 3 years yet.
Originally by: CCP Explorer

We actually came up with a reproduction case this week for the 32 bit scenario but it requires more than 30 minutes of orbiting while constantly getting bumped.


Which means that I was (probably) right about the server not sending enough info to re-sync once things start going wrong.

I'm guessing it would take less than 30 minutes if using high latency connections.

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2010.11.18 10:47:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Scorpyn
Edited by: Scorpyn on 18/11/2010 09:16:38
Originally by: CCP Explorer

So, a new problem you may ask? No, this has in fact been a problem since we moved the EVE Server to 64 bit in Quantum Rise.


No, desyncs are a lot older, but maybe you've already fixed the previous issue(s)? I haven't read the patch notes from the last 3 years yet.


The old desync was fixed. The ejecting 50 titans are a reference to that, that's how they managed to reproduce the problem so they could diagnose and fix it.
This is a new desync which they apparently solved a lot faster.

gobbybobby
Gallente
Solisk Executive Wing
Test Friends Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.11.18 11:16:00 - [58]
 

Bit off topic but is this why petitions are being very slow at getting answered, I was on 5 day free time and went to get the 60 day deal and transaction failed, filed petition but my account ran dead and I just re subbed with 30 days. When they do get round to it do you think they will let me get the 60 day deal again?? In the 5 days I was playing did a fair few lvl 4 missions in empire space did not notice this de sync issue. Then I salvage after missions in different ship so prob not have noticed anyway.

Milo Caman
Gallente
Anshar Incorporated
Posted - 2010.11.18 11:42:00 - [59]
 

Was still Desyncing when running an Annex with corpmates last night. Wrecks were popping up about 30km away from where the NPCs sploded' and warping out seemed to take *forever* (although that might've been something else)

Assume the fix for this is still ongoing?

Pesadel0
the muppets
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2010.11.18 12:06:00 - [60]
 

Got pawned with a desyinc issue in a local with 5 guys ;) , i told the ship to warp but it didnt, ohh well *** happens glad CCP is working on it .

Is the Fix going to be implemented in the new patch?


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