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Illwill Bill
Svea Crusaders
Posted - 2010.11.12 12:05:00 - [241]
 

A patch with fixes and backlogged changes? But... 18 months?!Shocked

Just kidding, this is excellent news! I'm glad you guys chose quality over quantity.Smile

Lex Striker
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.12 13:29:00 - [242]
 

Edited by: Lex Striker on 12/11/2010 13:30:13
Just want to say thanks for the update. Releasing this next Expansion in waves makes more sense to me anyways... release some, tweak some... release some more... tweak some more... etc... Based on my experience of 24 years working in IT, I can more than support this approach and surprised it is not done more in the online gaming world.

I will have to admit, that I was not impressed with CCP's recent releases, both in the latest Expansion and patches. It 'felt' like things were half cooked and released before they were ready. Not a good thing. This new way of doing business is a step to correcting this... I hope. Make sure something works before taking the next step... always worked for me.

As for the two Expansions a year that was promised? Well, I would rather have one good Expansion over time, then to have two like the last one.

For those nay-sayers who are whining and trashing CCP... what other online gaming company did you say you worked for again?

Khors
El Barco Pirata
Posted - 2010.11.12 13:47:00 - [243]
 

I was figuring it started to look like you had too many features for an expansion, glad you hacked it up, I was getting worried.

Ethersapien
Posted - 2010.11.12 14:00:00 - [244]
 

As a relatively new player, with EVE as my only experience of MMO's and Tyrranis my only experience of an expansion I do not have a great deal to compare this new release to and therefore reserve judgement. However, I would like to reiterate a couple of comments I have noted on this forum, can we please get an update on the arrival of the Noctis and the tweaks to PI.

Thanks for a great experience CCP

Allvan Harl
Posted - 2010.11.12 14:15:00 - [245]
 

No matter how you slice it, we get a better deal than the World of Warcraft players. They have to wait years for new stuff, and pay for it. We get it free, several times a year.

Astenion
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2010.11.12 14:57:00 - [246]
 

Originally by: Lyssa T'Kran
Originally by: Kenpachi Viktor
Originally by: Astenion
What would you add to Eve in another expansion besides station walking and the constant whining about weapon fixes? I'm talking real, no-sh!t new stuff to do that hasn't ever been done...can you think of anything? I surely can't.


Joystick flight



first person flight would certainly be cool.


Holy effing crap that would be awesome! But then again, think about it...would it even be possible? Wouldn't they have to change the entire game engine and physics engine for that? That was really more my point: what could we possibly add to Eve besides station walking without having to completely recode the game? Using what we have to work with right now in the time frame for expansions we have now, what could possibly be added that's not already there besides Incarna, graphical updates, and fixes?

I foresee future Eve expansions becoming mainly fixes and updates with some storyline content. It's a great game as it is, and anything more would have to be Eve 2.

Marcus Druallis
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2010.11.12 15:26:00 - [247]
 

Probes on overview... lol. ****ing bull****.

Tweakalvos
Gallente
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.11.12 15:36:00 - [248]
 

There taking a play from the Hi-Rez playbook for sure good job.

wizard87
Posted - 2010.11.12 15:43:00 - [249]
 

Originally by: Gil Danastre
I think a good yearly release schedule going forward would look something like this;

- 1 substantial expansion a year, released fall/winter.

- During the intervening months, release regular bug/balance patches. No more waiting 6 months for a major imbalance to get "looked at"

- Toss in small content patches throughout. Got a new model for X ship done? Toss it in!

I think ultimately this underscores that the 2 expansions a year thing is starting to hit it's limit. There's so much to EVE now just adding a little thing can break dozens of others. Plus, I think they're starting to run out of content ideas to put in there, hence the steadily decreasing "Wow" factor of all content updates. I mean, just going off of Wikipedias listing of the EVE expansions, we've got;

- Castor
- Tech 2 ships
- Conquerable Outposts in 0.0
- The agent mission running system
- Research Agents

- Exodus
- Deadspace areas
- POS's
- More ships
- Sov claiming

- Cold War
- Level 4 agents
- COSMOS constellations
- Freighters/Dreadnaughts
- Better pirate factions
- Player buildable stations

- RMR
- New bloodlines
- 23 new T2 ships
- Carriers/Titans/Moms

- Rev I
- Scan probes
- Exploration
- Contracts
- T2 Invention
- The drone regions
- New player experience
- Better galaxy map
- Rigs and boosters
- EVE voice

- Rev II
- Overheating
- Bombs
- Level 5 agents
- updating sov/starbases/outposts
- Better tutorials

- Trinity
- totally overhauled graphics engine
- 20 new ships

- EA
- Faction warfare
- black rise

- QR
- certs and medals
- The Orca
- indy ship rebalances
- weapon grouping

- Apocrypha
- Tech 3 ships with 3 of 5 subsystem variations (still waiting on the fifth!)
- wormhole space, ~2200 new systems
- sleepers
- epic arcs
- rig sizes

- Dominion
- major sov changes
- pirate epic arcs
- faction ship rebalances

- Tyrannis
- planetary interaction
- landmarks?
- new scorpion model
- alienware lights?

- Incursion
- Sansha incursions
- new character creator
- new ships (Noctis, sansha SC)

I mean I know Tyrannis has been stated as "what not to do", when you're bullet pointing a single ship model and color coded lights as major features you should rethink what you're doing. 1 expansion a year at the least would put some oomph back into the content side of things.


Best post yet, shows just exactly how (with the exception of Apocrypha) CCP have failed to deliver to their original high standards, and with more CCP employees it is getting worse.

Kenpachi Viktor
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2010.11.12 16:04:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: Astenion
Originally by: Lyssa T'Kran
Originally by: Kenpachi Viktor
Originally by: Astenion
What would you add to Eve in another expansion besides station walking and the constant whining about weapon fixes? I'm talking real, no-sh!t new stuff to do that hasn't ever been done...can you think of anything? I surely can't.


Joystick flight



first person flight would certainly be cool.


Holy effing crap that would be awesome! But then again, think about it...would it even be possible? Wouldn't they have to change the entire game engine and physics engine for that? That was really more my point: what could we possibly add to Eve besides station walking without having to completely recode the game? Using what we have to work with right now in the time frame for expansions we have now, what could possibly be added that's not already there besides Incarna, graphical updates, and fixes?

I foresee future Eve expansions becoming mainly fixes and updates with some storyline content. It's a great game as it is, and anything more would have to be Eve 2.


If the basic movement was handled by the client, (same as clicking in space - with rolling being purely cosmetic) it shouldn't add any extra lag to the server, other than what spam-clicking to move would. Physics should work as per normal.

Viral Effect
Caldari
BRAINDEAD Corp
Posted - 2010.11.12 16:18:00 - [251]
 

Letís hope you have fixed high sec agents sending a disproportionate amount of courier missions to low sec. That needs fixing.

tehSiner
Abnormal Experience
Posted - 2010.11.12 16:23:00 - [252]
 

* Meta-item indicator icons

What does this mean?

Idicious Lightbane
Percussive Diplomacy
Posted - 2010.11.12 16:34:00 - [253]
 

Thank you CCP for taking the time to deliver more polished content, I applaud you Very Happy

M'aak'han
Posted - 2010.11.12 16:46:00 - [254]
 

Thank you CCP for screwing the "data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better" approach and committing to release Excellent features. And for actually listening to the player base.
Kudos ! ugh

Mara Xeno
Posted - 2010.11.12 16:59:00 - [255]
 

* CCP releases expansion, that turns out to be buggy:
Forum Members: Booo! Bugs! You suck! You should have waited!

* CCP delays expansion release to increase quality:
Forum Members: Booo! Slow! You suck! You should release now!

Fun fact: Often the same Forum Members for both statements.

Bottom line: You can't please everyone. And some people are just dumb and impossible to please.

Draco Argen
Posted - 2010.11.12 17:02:00 - [256]
 

Edited by: Draco Argen on 12/11/2010 17:04:49
Ok, Normally don't feed Trolls;

1) I think it goes without saying if they release in Jan and its as bad or worse than normal then there will be crying. Point is hopefully this won't happen because CCP have made a correct decision in release scheduling.

B) CCPs financial resource allocation of profits is ENTIRELY up to them. They can be feeding Icelandic whales and not developing eve at all if they wanted. We just wouldn't be very happy, unless you liked both whales and spaceships.

B-2) NO ONE official has said they are using Eve money for WoD or Dust. It's a reasonable assumption but also stupid to argue about.

IV) I would be TOTALLY happy with a one of this release being entirely bug fixes (admittedly it would preferably include certain feature re-writes like POSes which might be considered "new"). So your not going to convince me personally this move is a bad one.

Apparently a high percentage of others agree this is a good move by the massive positive response thus far.

0101) Have you seen Sisi? From thread posts alone the current build is far from ready. Hangs, reboots, all sorts of issues. If you want that, keep egging for Nov release and you can have Multiplicity all to yourself warts and all.

*Sticks in Sign that reads "DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS*

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2010.11.12 17:03:00 - [257]
 

Originally by: M'aak'han
Thank you CCP for screwing the "data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better" approach and committing to release Excellent features. And for actually listening to the player base.
Kudos ! ugh


They said something like "new features sells better than polishing old content" and this doesn't prove otherwise. What this does show is that broken/bugged content doesn't sell no matter how new it is. Polished new content will still propably sell much better than just polishing old content past a certain point though.

Cajun Style
Posted - 2010.11.12 17:05:00 - [258]
 

Holy ****, so you're saying that instead of giving me content that works you are nerfing scroch? Are you guys ******ed? You post a feature on Sisi, you promise it for a certain day, you let it get all of youtube, then you put it back on sisi except embarrassingly super broken, then you roll back your patch date by multiple months. Wow. And don't anyone tell me "ohai they are going for excllence." They already missed the window on excellent performance on this one. Normally I think that CCP has a masterplan behind what they do and I am like "wow, despite its flaws EVE is pretty ingenious," but with this patch I am genuinely seeing more things that are ******ed than things that are even remotely good. Like the SN supercarrier... I'm sure you all will make it look nice, I'm not *****inga bout that... just the suggested base stats show that whoever you have designing this content is worthlessly incompetent and has never played eve.

Hawk TT
Caldari
Bulgarian Experienced Crackers
Posted - 2010.11.12 17:06:00 - [259]
 

THIS!

Originally by: Zendoren

Please read this book and get back to us!

Thanks,
Zen


I usually give simple example, why scaling a software development team differs from scaling a team digging trenches...

Software Development Scaling

Yep, read the book, or at least the overview in the Wiki article...

Putting more developers onto a late task/job leads to exponential increase of communication & coordination lines, but because we talk about human Devs, not SOL nodes running macro-bots, and human brains have certain limits, the big/fat team ends up with miscommunication and bad coordination. As a result there are more delays, worse quality and screwed up product.
Development and debugging of a live, real-time virtual world simulation is one of the most complex endevours a dev team could take!

Performance of the team deteriorates almost exponentially with increasing the number of the team members working on the task!

Digging Trenches Scaling

This is a job that is several magnitudes easier & scalable - you draw a line on the field, you put N number of people doing very simple task - digging.
The team/party doen not need too much coordination - one Sergeant could coordinate hundreds of diggers. The more diggers you put, the more trenches you could dig for the same amount of time.

Performance of the team increases almost linearly with increasing the number of the members working on the task!


Hawk TT
Caldari
Bulgarian Experienced Crackers
Posted - 2010.11.12 17:14:00 - [260]
 

I have a simple solution for you M'am/Sir - GO PLAY EVERQUEST AND YOU WILL BE HAPPY, SMILING, GETTING WET/HARD ETC...Cool

Originally by: Amida Ta
Each time CCP releases an "Expansion" I get less confident in CCP still showing any notable commitment to EVE.

The truth is there haven't been any Expansion for years now (since Apoc). The terms in the MMO-community are pretty well defined: There are patches, (free) content updates and expansions. One of the feature of EVE was that even the expansions were free. However if you look at what CCP nowaday markets as expansion then its clearly not an expansion. Its a free content update that you get with every MMO. The difference is that others give you this free content updates 4-6 times a year and CCP doesn't even manage to keep up to it's two-per-year ones.

And this incursion crap is only the end of a very long series. Look at what "features" are now supposed to come this year and then compare that to http://everquest2.com/gameinfo/updates/57 or http://everquest2.com/gameinfo/updates/58. Being an Eve-fan will make you cry. And both games are of similar age. Only Eve has a ton more subscribers, so CCP earns at least 5-10 times more money. But still EQ2 puts out free LUs that completely dwarf any of the latest expansions AND puts them out 4-6 times a year. And that although SOE is a pretty greedy company anyways.

Just sad.

LordElfa
Gallente
Golden Lyon Warriors
Posted - 2010.11.12 18:03:00 - [261]
 

I'm not mad actually, huh. This means I get to complete my current training plan before the invasion which is a good thing.

Zeimanov Kalzumaan
Haruspex Industries
Posted - 2010.11.12 18:27:00 - [262]
 

Great job CCP - I would rather have a finished and developed expansion that is late than an unfinished expansion on time. Holding to an arbitrary "2 expansions per year" at the expense of quality is a waste of time.

As for the whining that the mini patch consists of "only fixes" ignore it - we want a quiality polished product - if it means going without new content for a year it is worth it to have everything work with little lag.

tl:dr great job CCP

Sister Fein
Posted - 2010.11.12 18:33:00 - [263]
 

So, in which release of incursion do we get the keyboard shortcuts? That's the most interesting feature of Incursion as far as I'm concerned...

/Sis

PS: Nicely done CCP, just as long as this isn't an excuse for lack of properly targeted effort ;)

TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.11.12 18:40:00 - [264]
 

Originally by: tehSiner
* Meta-item indicator icons

What does this mean?

You know how a T2 item in your hanger has a yellow triangle in the corner?

Well now faction, deadspace and office gear will have something similar (green, blue and purple - Eve now gets epic purple lewts Wink)

Lyssa T'Kran
Posted - 2010.11.12 18:48:00 - [265]
 

still waiting for information on when shader model 2 support is removed. Please inform!

Nikas Minor
Posted - 2010.11.12 18:49:00 - [266]
 

Edited by: Nikas Minor on 12/11/2010 18:50:21
Edited by: Nikas Minor on 12/11/2010 18:49:49
First off: Fine, take the time to polish things up. Good. I would rather have fully working features than something that breaks the game.

That said: I cannot believe CCP has not managed expectations better than this. We are what, about a week or so away from when all this was *supposed* to be released? If things were so far behind, CCP must have known before now. I think if expectations had been managed much sooner, people would not be as upset with the delay, myself included. There are features in Incursion some have been waiting for for a *long* time, to yank the rug out like that is just mean.

Still, I'm looking forward to the final product, just please keep your customers more in the loop :)

kwix
Posted - 2010.11.12 19:18:00 - [267]
 

with all this talk of the Sansha stuff...is there finally going to be a way to fix faction standing with Sansha other than running 750 lvl 1 courier missions?

Currently, you have a reasonable shot every 90 days to fix Guristas and Angels standings via the Epic Mission Arc, but there is no option like this for Sansha (or Serpentis) faction standings.

If you wanted a quick fix....I would imagine you could fix the problem by allowing to the existing epic arcs to derive faction standings increases without writing new content.

ITTigerClawIK
Amarr
Galactic Rangers
Galactic-Rangers
Posted - 2010.11.12 19:21:00 - [268]
 

Quote:
80 new story line courier missions


i very much hope this was a joke for CCP's sake, and for mission runners everywhere O_O

apart from that, looking good ^_^

Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2010.11.12 19:32:00 - [269]
 

Edited by: Hakaru Ishiwara on 13/11/2010 16:20:12
Looking back to the great Dominion debacle just under one year ago, I am thoroughly astonished and impressed that CCP's management team has matured enough to allow its employees to have the chance at doing excellent work. Truly, this is a sign of a much more professional project management decision making process. Good work! (*)

Regarding what is released in the mini-expansion, I suggest including only that which has been rigorously tested and approved by CCP's in-house QA team.

Lastly, what type of hardware does CCP expect to run whatever additional Anti-Aliasing are proposed for release? Specifically, what are the recommended specifications for enabling AA at a 1600x1200 pixels and greater resolution?


(*) - I have been highly critical of CCP's project implementation methods and management in the past. This time around, I am truly pleased to see major organizational improvements.

[Edit: engrish.]

jumbojohnny
Caldari
Personal Investment and Strategic Trade Federation
Posted - 2010.11.12 20:20:00 - [270]
 

Ok I gotta say is that I don't mind waiting for any of it so long as the noctis comes out in nov patch. I have waited for a few long years for that ship to come into existance.

Jumbojohnny
your friendly neighborhood industrial powerhouse


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