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Astenion
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2010.11.12 03:05:00 - [211]
 

Edited by: Astenion on 12/11/2010 03:08:37
Originally by: Rheige Bladewhisper
Originally by: Astenion
Blizzard is now able to be the powerhouse it is and release high quality stuff because they have the money and resources to do it. They didn't get these resources from WoW, they got it from Warcraft, Warcraft 2, Starcraft, Diablo, and Diablo 2; WoW is simply their sugar daddy that affords them the opportunity to continue releasing big stuff. CCP's first real moneymaker was Eve. So in effect, Eve is Warcraft. Not WoW, but Warcraft. When CCP makes WoD and a whole slew of other top-notch games, Eve 2 will be friggin' mind-blowing. However, Eve's pretty damn good as it is, seeing as it's their primary moneymaker.


Indeed, and the reason they got there is because of accepting the philosophy of "when it's done." Just like Valve, and any other company that relies on their product being quality. I really do hope CCP is starting to understand that. I really and truly do.


I think they do because, frankly, they don't have any other choice. They're DAMN lucky STO ended up being a steaming pile, but now they've got the new Star Wars MMO to deal with, along with Black Prophecy and the like.

To be honest, this quota of 2 expansions per year doesn't work. It's obvious that at this stage in the game it's just not doable. I think it should be done away with. Concentrate on one big kickass expansion per year and release regular updates (NOT FIXES) as the need becomes apparent. Fixes should be done regularly and without being so newsworthy. Let's all be honest and admit that all these expansions are just appetizers to keep us entertained while we wait for Incarna.

I think CCP is finally taking a step in the right direction.

Lallante
Reikoku
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2010.11.12 03:24:00 - [212]
 

Edited by: Lallante on 12/11/2010 03:41:51
Edited by: Lallante on 12/11/2010 03:41:34
I hope CCP appreciates the overwhelmingly positive response to this supposedly 'bad' news, and learns something from it.

Your community isnt just a bunch of bittervets who hates any change or lack of change in equal measure. You've been going in the wrong direction for some time now, but, in recent months, seem to have pulled back from the brink and have started listening to us.

We -Will- support you when you make the difficult, but correct, decisions for the game. Most of us are here for the long-term.

I hope this marks a sea-change in CCP thinking away from short-termism, feature cramming and marketting-led timetables towards Excellence, because I promise you that both the game and CCP as a company will benefit (as it has in the past) from the legion of loyal veterans Excellence will command.


Edit: And CCP Devs, if you really want a Bizaro-world experience, go read the SHC thread on this devblog. A site that is literally defined by its bitterness to :CCP:, yet 100% positive reaction http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=37749

Mayham Jack
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.12 03:30:00 - [213]
 

So many of us play this game look forward to the upcoming expansions and correct timelines without bugs. I just hope this delay wont be full of bugs like the last 6 months of constant patch bug fix after fix after fix. Thanks for keeping us updated on the somewhat correct patch dates. I am disappointed that the full content wont be released on time but i rather have that then bug fix after bug fix patch.

Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
The Black Armada
Posted - 2010.11.12 03:51:00 - [214]
 

Originally by: Jack Gilligan
Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 11/11/2010 17:32:11
Unacceptable, CCP.

This amounts to a CANCELLATION of this expansion, with it's replacement with stuff that is mostly UI tweaks which will need God knows how many interim patches to fix.

Yes, we do want things released only when they are actually done right.

However, a 2+ months delay (really a cancellation of the Winter 2010 expansion) tells us that you aren't spending the proper resources on this game to meet both your commitment to giving us two major updates a year AND to do them right. The two are not mutually exclusive. Delays of days or even weeks to fix showstoppers found late in the process is fine, we're all for that. But it shouldn't be MONTHS, with major features vanishing on the cutting room floor.

This is no more acceptable an answer than rushing out junk like you did with Dominion and Tyrranus.

Seriously, CCP, this isn't a step forward. This just exposes how f'ed up your development and quality control models are and definite proof you haven't properly addressed either yet.



Please read this book and get back to us!

Thanks,
Zen

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2010.11.12 04:01:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Mayham Jack
So many of us play this game look forward to the upcoming expansions and correct timelines without bugs. I just hope this delay wont be full of bugs like the last 6 months of constant patch bug fix after fix after fix. Thanks for keeping us updated on the somewhat correct patch dates. I am disappointed that the full content wont be released on time but i rather have that then bug fix after bug fix patch.


just because it won't be out doesn't you mean you can't use it.

sisi

General Domination
Posted - 2010.11.12 04:22:00 - [216]
 

Dear CCP,

I cry a load THANK YOU over the atlantic in CCP HQ for the Anti-Aliasing Support. Its great, because it was the greatest technical outdate in EvE beside the textures.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.12 04:24:00 - [217]
 

On the one hand, BOO I WANTED CHARACTER CREATION THIS YEAR, on the other hand, hey, we asked for it, we got it. Better late and better.

Kireiina
Posted - 2010.11.12 04:32:00 - [218]
 


It's got to say something for CCP that announcing the expansion has suddenly become a bunch of UI, graphic and balance tweaks actually makes people happy.


Gil Danastre
Amarr
JAF-CO Exploration
Posted - 2010.11.12 06:06:00 - [219]
 

I think a good yearly release schedule going forward would look something like this;

- 1 substantial expansion a year, released fall/winter.

- During the intervening months, release regular bug/balance patches. No more waiting 6 months for a major imbalance to get "looked at"

- Toss in small content patches throughout. Got a new model for X ship done? Toss it in!

I think ultimately this underscores that the 2 expansions a year thing is starting to hit it's limit. There's so much to EVE now just adding a little thing can break dozens of others. Plus, I think they're starting to run out of content ideas to put in there, hence the steadily decreasing "Wow" factor of all content updates. I mean, just going off of Wikipedias listing of the EVE expansions, we've got;

- Castor
- Tech 2 ships
- Conquerable Outposts in 0.0
- The agent mission running system
- Research Agents

- Exodus
- Deadspace areas
- POS's
- More ships
- Sov claiming

- Cold War
- Level 4 agents
- COSMOS constellations
- Freighters/Dreadnaughts
- Better pirate factions
- Player buildable stations

- RMR
- New bloodlines
- 23 new T2 ships
- Carriers/Titans/Moms

- Rev I
- Scan probes
- Exploration
- Contracts
- T2 Invention
- The drone regions
- New player experience
- Better galaxy map
- Rigs and boosters
- EVE voice

- Rev II
- Overheating
- Bombs
- Level 5 agents
- updating sov/starbases/outposts
- Better tutorials

- Trinity
- totally overhauled graphics engine
- 20 new ships

- EA
- Faction warfare
- black rise

- QR
- certs and medals
- The Orca
- indy ship rebalances
- weapon grouping

- Apocrypha
- Tech 3 ships with 3 of 5 subsystem variations (still waiting on the fifth!)
- wormhole space, ~2200 new systems
- sleepers
- epic arcs
- rig sizes

- Dominion
- major sov changes
- pirate epic arcs
- faction ship rebalances

- Tyrannis
- planetary interaction
- landmarks?
- new scorpion model
- alienware lights?

- Incursion
- Sansha incursions
- new character creator
- new ships (Noctis, sansha SC)

I mean I know Tyrannis has been stated as "what not to do", when you're bullet pointing a single ship model and color coded lights as major features you should rethink what you're doing. 1 expansion a year at the least would put some oomph back into the content side of things.

Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.11.12 06:09:00 - [220]
 

I'm glad to see CCP admit they are not ready to push this expansion out live, and to hold back on some features until they are more complete. This isn't the first time though seems like some others got broke up to.

I am though disappointed that the list for November seems so small. Also is the Noctis coming out then?

Raptor2022
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.12 06:42:00 - [221]
 

Edited by: Raptor2022 on 12/11/2010 06:43:08
Well. Lets get the sad angry bit out of the way..... CCP why oh why are you delaying :( I've been waiting with great anticipation for this release.

On the other hand this a good thing! This is the first thread I've read since I started playing that has had more positive feedback than bad (Then again I only started playing just before the Tyrranis release so not much time has passed)

I agree with a lot of others on the thread. Rather a delay (an admitted one nonethelessShocked ) than a buggy release that would take 6 months to fix and by that time Incarna has been released and no one even got a taste of what Incursion should have been.

Ok, I am going to start training up on a nice ship now for Incursion. A bit more time to get those very much needed armor compensation and Battleship skills up Razz

Oh and +1 for AA

Borgholio
Minmatar
Quantum Industries
Prime Orbital Systems
Posted - 2010.11.12 06:53:00 - [222]
 

When is the upgraded PI coming out? Please don't say January...

DJ Obsidian
RONA Legion
Posted - 2010.11.12 06:54:00 - [223]
 

I dont see why people are complaining this way of deploying an expansion.

Part 1 - release a sizeable amount of backlog changes.

Part 2 - some new content and new stuff and more fixes

Part 3 - the final portion and the true part of the expansion.


So from my views it looks like this expansion is going to be 50% polishing and 50% new stuff.

And to the whiners, go F*** yourselves, you demanded polishing of old content more than new stuff and you got it.

Kenpachi Viktor
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2010.11.12 07:36:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: Astenion
What would you add to Eve in another expansion besides station walking and the constant whining about weapon fixes? I'm talking real, no-sh!t new stuff to do that hasn't ever been done...can you think of anything? I surely can't.


Joystick flight

Lyssa T'Kran
Posted - 2010.11.12 07:38:00 - [225]
 

Originally by: Kenpachi Viktor
Originally by: Astenion
What would you add to Eve in another expansion besides station walking and the constant whining about weapon fixes? I'm talking real, no-sh!t new stuff to do that hasn't ever been done...can you think of anything? I surely can't.


Joystick flight



first person flight would certainly be cool.

Double Dee
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.11.12 07:41:00 - [226]
 

will dust and wod be delayed too? will i still be able to buy sp (skill points) with plex on the december release?

Mallikanth
Posted - 2010.11.12 08:23:00 - [227]
 

Originally by: DJ Obsidian
I dont see why people are complaining this way of deploying an expansion.

Part 1 - release a sizeable amount of backlog changes.
Part 2 - some new content and new stuff and more fixes
Part 3 - the final portion and the true part of the expansion.

So from my views it looks like this expansion is going to be 50% polishing and 50% new stuff.

And to the whiners, go F*** yourselves, you demanded polishing of old content more than new stuff and you got it.


^ This


Geddings
Posted - 2010.11.12 08:29:00 - [228]
 

this makes me feel better as the charecter creator in my opinion is not ready to be released this month I am glad they are going to wait a bit, however i hope this does not mean that the walking in stations will be pushed back too much,

however i imagine the good news is that walking in stations i am sure will be given plenty of time of play testing as the nice thing about Eve Online is that they dont "hide" features of upcoming addons from players meaning the test server is a great way to test out new featurees of addons if you cant wait :-)

Bravo to CCP for choosing to wait a bit before pushing incursion to work on the bugs and making it a better experience for everyone!

Bugs aside i think the new character creator is really nice cant wait to really dive in once more of the bugs are worked out :-)

My faith is restored in CCP :-) (aside from the somewhat botched test today but hopefully they will give out bonus points to at least everyone who posted in the forums around that time frame who didn't get in...lets hope).

:-D


ArmyOfMe
Hysera.
Posted - 2010.11.12 08:31:00 - [229]
 

sad to see you cant get the expantion out in time, but glad to see that you wont just release the normal server breaking stuff you usally do.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2010.11.12 08:53:00 - [230]
 

If you put yourself 2 months behind schedule how will you catch up so the next expansion is out on time? Is this the end of 2 expansions a year?

Also, are you sure you don't have to submit a press release or whatever it is you do over in Iceland? Because a big material event like delaying your main product by at least 33% sounds to me like something you need or at least should disclose.

Eowarian D
Gallente
Indicium Technologies
Posted - 2010.11.12 08:59:00 - [231]
 

I welcome this decision of CCP!
Good thing they focus on the Excellence, instead of delivering more "unpolished" content.
And smaller patches means less DT means more time to play!
Good job CMS! Thanks for listening CCP and do something "unusual". Wink

Tbh, now I'm even more looking forward to Incursion!

Nalerem
Posted - 2010.11.12 09:23:00 - [232]
 

I'm not much for posting in these comment threads, but I think this is some of the best new I've read for a long time. Kudos to CCP for not releasing content before it's done and for the excellent information they have been providing the community lately. Also of course to the CSM, it really feels like they have been a major factor in the positive changes we've been seeing lately.

Mme Pinkerton
The pink win
Posted - 2010.11.12 09:28:00 - [233]
 

Originally by: Zendoren
Please read this book and get back to us!

Thanks,
Zen

Very Happy

seconded

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.12 09:35:00 - [234]
 

good to see it spread out other ideas can be incorparated in the meantime

sounds like budget issues are starting to hit ccp staffing though

Takseen
Posted - 2010.11.12 10:51:00 - [235]
 

Quote:
That is our Deliver commitment. However, we also have a commitment to make them Excellent. In this case, we've chosen to Deliver parts of the expansion in November and December, and the two key features in January with Excellence to respect both commitments.


Excellent news. An extra month or two to polish the main features, but we still get the balance and UI fixes early.

Shandir
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.11.12 10:55:00 - [236]
 

As well explained in that book linked - more people != more work done/less bugs. CCP is developing a monstrosity of a code base that gets harder with every expansion to control.
A lot of what they've done this expansion is set up the groundwork for making future expansions easier - Corification (both sharing code and cleaning it up so changes are easier and less buggy), and 64-bit(removing some dirty hacks that were causing issues) -> Both of those will make it easier for future expansions to have more content.
I'm extremely glad CCP have decided that (for this expansion at least, keep it up) Excellence comes before Delivery. On time and bad (Tyrannis) is a waste of developer time, late and awesome (Incursion?) is both industry-standard and a much better way to do things.
I vote that all future releases be delayed for months at a time! Spend that time making things work, building infrastructure to make the game better both in the ways we can see, and the ways we cannot, and finally doing a lot of gameplay testing and balancing to work out what it is the players want to play.

+1 CCP

Bhattran
Posted - 2010.11.12 11:21:00 - [237]
 

Originally by: Clacker McDucky
I don't know why the hell people are complaining about this.

I think it's pretty astounding to expect 2 major expansions a year that are not buggy, given the enormity of creating new releases (like Dominion and Tyranis).

Frankly, I'd prefer a single, stable release every year versus two buggy releases that cause problems (like "spacial anomolies" in large fleet fights) that make the best elements of Eve difficult or impossible to use.


FYI Tyrannis wasn't 'enormous' if it encompassed all that was/will ever be regarding planets that CCP has talked about, it still wouldn't approach 'enormous' they took what moon mining and asteroid mining and plopped it down on a planet, oh and a free collector's item ship, not in any way 'enormous'.

Before anyone goes there, no DUST514 isn't part of EVE Online no matter what CCP says it is a separate product that TIES/LINKS to EVE Online so even if Tyrannis marked DUST514 being released it still wouldn't make the Tyrannis 'expansion' 'enormous' being a different product and platform.

Part of why CCP can't do expansions properly is they don't allow enough time and/or resources to do them along with then pushing whatever **** falls out the hamster's ass on us instead of deciding it isn't good enough and fixing it first. The solutions are do/expect less, CCP's new approach from the CSM meeting, add more resources/time what they are doing THIS time. I favor the last solution but we will have to see what CCP does in the future, lower the expectations which from what I've been reading and not reading is the plan or allow more time resources to do things right which might be fluke.

Caghji
Posted - 2010.11.12 11:52:00 - [238]
 

Hi one question for me

was going to wait for November release before overhauling all my PI stuff (upgrade to elite) as was expecting group extractor controls etc

now seems to be a bit confused on what exactly is coming out in November

if PI isn't being upgraded on this November expansion would like to be told as will set time aside now this weekend to upgrade PI stuff

Cheers in anticipation of answer


Caghji

666Devious
Sinister Elite
Raining Doom
Posted - 2010.11.12 11:54:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Jack Gilligan
Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 11/11/2010 23:36:50
Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 11/11/2010 23:36:11
Originally by: Alice Celadon
To all the *excellence? OMG thanks* fanbois in this thread:

WHEN INCURSION COMES OUT AND IS AS AWFUL AS THE PAST TWO EXPANSIONS, WHAT KISS-@55 TALKING POINT WILL YOU BE PARROTING THEN?

I'm pretty curious. TIA for your answers.


Exactly. By playing this card, CCP is setting themselves up for industry headline grabbing universal scorn unless this thing is absolutely perfect. And I mean PERFECT. We're talking Hilmar is Iceland's John Smedley type scorn.

Also, this is a card CCP can only play ONCE. And it's played.

I think the expansion is far more likely to delete a critical Windows system file than it is to be that, if for no other reason than CCP has actually DONE that before.

The Dominion/Tyrannus "vote for us for game of the year" backlash debacle will pale in comparison.




Epic, I stopped reading right here. I like to see this perfect.
CCP hasn't had one expansion that hasn't been crap the first day it comes out.

Amida Ta
German Mining and Manufacture Corp.
Posted - 2010.11.12 11:58:00 - [240]
 

Each time CCP releases an "Expansion" I get less confident in CCP still showing any notable commitment to EVE.

The truth is there haven't been any Expansion for years now (since Apoc). The terms in the MMO-community are pretty well defined: There are patches, (free) content updates and expansions. One of the feature of EVE was that even the expansions were free. However if you look at what CCP nowaday markets as expansion then its clearly not an expansion. Its a free content update that you get with every MMO. The difference is that others give you this free content updates 4-6 times a year and CCP doesn't even manage to keep up to it's two-per-year ones.

And this incursion crap is only the end of a very long series. Look at what "features" are now supposed to come this year and then compare that to http://everquest2.com/gameinfo/updates/57 or http://everquest2.com/gameinfo/updates/58. Being an Eve-fan will make you cry. And both games are of similar age. Only Eve has a ton more subscribers, so CCP earns at least 5-10 times more money. But still EQ2 puts out free LUs that completely dwarf any of the latest expansions AND puts them out 4-6 times a year. And that although SOE is a pretty greedy company anyways.

Just sad.


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