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Astenion
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2010.11.11 21:34:00 - [151]
 

Edited by: Astenion on 11/11/2010 21:37:44
I'd **** my pants and dance naked in the snow in my courtyard in front of all my neighbors if the Santa surprise is station walking, haha! It would be impossible, but can you imagine finding out that the surprise on Christmas Day would be, "Oh yeah, and your Christmas present is Incarna in January since Incursion was in November."

On a serious note, I'm glad they're not rushing anything and staggering the release...sounds like a great idea.

Bhattran
Posted - 2010.11.11 21:38:00 - [152]
 

I'm all for doing things 'right' or as close to 'right' as possible even if that means a delay. Having said that this is just a perfect example, for the first time perhaps, of CCP admitting they don't devote enough resources to things and not pushing it through. We saw not too long ago with Tyrannis how it wasn't properly planned out and the 'solution' we were told was to basically lower expectations so that didn't happen again. Now here we have CCP admitting they can't do it, or at least can't do it 'right' and will roll out what is 'done' and hold off on that which they think they can do more on or make even better, ****ING THANK YOU! Let me say that again, THANK YOU CCP for not dropping some broken glitch ridden POS on your customer base and telling them you are 'aware of the problem'.

As I said I think this shows you very possibly don't have enough resources to do what you plan, and *I* don't think the solution is to simply scale back what you do, that is an option, just not one I think EVE or the players deserve there is simply too much that you should/need to do in addition to whatever you want to add/iterate.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2010.11.11 21:39:00 - [153]
 

Really really GOOD move. Best news since a while, and there were plenty of them.


Only point not so good is to release stuff in small packages, every month a little bit. That is unwise. You people, especially at marketing, need to learn more about psychology Very Happy

Having one or two single highlights people can look forward to is so much better than an endless stream of small things. Otherwise people will think that their premium product is completely unfinished, broken and just a fake thing. Better do all the necessary things, wait until they are really good and then release them in a big and nice manner.


But this is just a side remark. In general: WELL DONE!

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.11.11 21:44:00 - [154]
 

To give some background, the reason the November mini-expansion is mostly UI tweaks is that these are point-changes to EVE that can be added in isolation, whereas the main Incursion features are all inter-related.

It was clear from the internal communications that CCP agonized over this decision, but they clearly made the right call IMHO.

One consequence of this decision, which will no doubt be discussed at the December summit, is how this delay is going to affect the Spring expansion.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2010.11.11 21:49:00 - [155]
 

Has anyone else noticed that the expansio will be up on SiSi for testing for 3 months?

We will get to see everything single tiny change they ever make, and unlike PI there will be ZERO confusion on direction. No hidden features/non-features.

They allready got rid of the circle wheels on the character creator and so on.


CCP, have you thought about using this as more of a standard expansion deployment?

no no I don't mean delay all of them :P But put up what is almost the feature finished non-polished expansion up on SiSi, and then release it, or delay it for a month based on player feedback with the final word based on the CSM.

I think the fact hat we aren't getting the new expansion is half a lie because it's unpolished version is already available!

I guess it's not realistic, but knowing I get to give feedback and play with the new features for 3 months is kinda awesome.



Or.. here is one more idea... More to One expansion a year, but have it up on SiSi for 6 months. Put as much you would usually put into 2 expansion but build it around player feedback.

maybe that's also unrealistic :P

Korerin Mayul
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.11 21:51:00 - [156]
 

This is probably the most important and best news to come out of CCP in 2 years.
I totally support this, long may the drive for excellence continue.

keep going like this and i may start a third account.

zombiedeadhead
Minmatar
The Tuskers
Posted - 2010.11.11 21:57:00 - [157]
 

Great move, I'd like to see this become the standard implemetation of expansion roll outs.

Max Torps
Nomadic Conglomerate
Posted - 2010.11.11 22:01:00 - [158]
 

Nice approach CCP. Well done on showing that you are listening to us. I'll echo Mynxee and wish that you'd announced sooner, but I think many people already guessed with the conspicuous lack of a dev blog or two!

Great stuff, I'm really looking forward to the new features.

---

ivar R'dhak
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.11 22:08:00 - [159]
 

I was almost getting worried about this 2 releases per year fervor.
Iīd gladly trade in one release for more polishing of the standard game.

This game and the core gameplay is nearly a decade old. IT needs polishing and new ideas more than some new pixels.

Originally by: Xaen
Who are you and what have you done with CCP?

Please allow me a celebratory injection of a little color:

Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

QFT! Laughing


Christian Schneider
Posted - 2010.11.11 22:15:00 - [160]
 

when are you going to release the noctis (salvage vessel)?

ivar R'dhak
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.11 22:25:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Christian Schneider
when are you going to release the noctis (salvage vessel)?
Looks like in December. More power to my Marauder. Weee. Wink

derdlim
Posted - 2010.11.11 22:29:00 - [162]
 

I think this is a good idea.

i also believe that CCPhf trying to push out 2 expansions a year was ok when the game was small and was their only project.

but now that EvE has grown over the last X years and are now developing more than just EvE I personally believe that they should only do 1 expansion per year to allow them to build up the hype for the expansion, and being able to test the new expansion more thoroughly and put more time into planning out the expansion.

If CCPhf waited and combined the last two expansion into one and released it around 9 months after Apocrypha would of giving them more time to plan it out.
I like the idea of releasing the unpolished version of the expansion on SiSi a month to two months in advance to allow users to find any problems or bugs in the expansion. im sure if complete working PI was available for use on SiSi and CCPhf listened to the players who test it though would of have time to fix the clickfest that is PI.

I hope i communicated my thoughts clearly im not a native English speaker and learn it because of EvE :P


Eniy Oh
Gallente
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.11.11 22:39:00 - [163]
 

If the people posting here are representative for the entire EVE community, then less than 1% hate this move of CCP and 99% support it. In that case, realistically speaking, the minority is practically non-existant.

Where are the forum whiners? OMG!

Fake edit: I too, approve of this, BTW

Rikki Sals
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.11 22:53:00 - [164]
 

Good call, CCP. I know you will use the extra time well. Cool

Manfred Rickenbocker
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2010.11.11 23:07:00 - [165]
 

Whaaaat? What about the Planetary Interaction improvements! No mention? Do want!

Kralin Ignatov
Gallente
Macabre Votum
Posted - 2010.11.11 23:19:00 - [166]
 

one can only hope this now means the end of times where we see boot.ini, "sentient-crazy-pos", or "dude, where's my titan bpo?" on patch day

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2010.11.11 23:21:00 - [167]
 

+1 for delayed excellence over rushed mediocrity (or worse)

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.11.11 23:23:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Korerin Mayul
This is probably the most important and best news to come out of CCP in 2 years.
I totally support this, long may the drive for excellence continue.

keep going like this and i may start a third account.



You do realize this is spin, right?

For them to delay this expansion means that it is so seriously screwed up that they had no chance of deploying it on time in a state which passes what passes in the MMO development community (but not any other) for quality assurance: Will it run without crashing the client and server every 10 minutes?

CCP still clearly has no problem publishing broken poorly tested junk to the live server, see the recent saga of Tyranus 1.1 and it's 6 "optional" patches.

No, what happened here is CCP missed their deadline and instead of owning up to it they are spinning it as somehow "good" because they are "listening to us" etc. Prediction: Whenever Incursion hits (if it ever hits, as I said earlier, the longer this is delayed the more it eats into time for joined at the hip Incarna/DUST514 the less likely we are ever to see Incursion) it will be no better than earlier expansions with respect to initial quality. They aren't taking extra time to make Incursion better. They are taking extra time because management came up with an unrealistic development plan that could not be done. Either that or they spent their budget on blow and hookers, there really isnt' an alternative possibility.

Indeed, Incursion really doesn't have much to it as it is, it's one of the thinnest expansions I've seen since first subscribing to EVE in 2007. What is in it?

1. A character creator (Incarna/DUST prerequisite, probably the highest priority item in the whole expansion) This benefits our gameplay how?

2. Improvements to a hastily made PI UI. Other than the "they should have done this one expansion AGO" factor, this really adds nothing to our gameplay. We already have PI. A PI with a better UI only makes what we already have less aggravating to do, it's not a big addition to the game, hardly expansion worthy, should have been in Tyrannus 1.1 or something.

3. An apparently (since it won't be seen for months past the time it was due) hastily made "Incursion" system made up of recycling the sleeper and wormhole AI systems. From the Dev blogs, these things will probably be more of an annoyance than an asset, since there appears to be no reward for someone who doesn't play the game for carebear purposes 23.5/7. Like factional warfare, it seems to be what could have been a great idea being very poorly executed, and thus something that I won't bother with. This is the only part of the "expansion" that could be called worthy of the term. As part of an expansion, not as the whole point of the expansion.

4. One ship that salvages. woot. Useless to anyone who isn't an empire mission runner who doesn't have Marauders yet. Which all the serious bears already have... Hardly worth advertising on the retail box.

5. One supercap ship that is either "pre nerfed" into worthlessness or overpowered and game breaking. CCP never seems to balance the two. Given that 90% of the subscriber base will likely never own one in the time they subscribe to this game, much less before the next "expansion" comes out it's probably less worthy of going on the retail box's bullet points than the salvage ship above.

As I have said, we are owed a more detailed explanation as to WHY such an extended delay. What went wrong? Was it poor planning? Is it showstopper bugs? Or are we being lied to, in that they knew when they made the announcement there was ZERO possibility of meeting the deadline, and we've been shown what amounts to vaporware demos and sold a bill of goods.

CCP has more than sufficient revenues to BOTH do two quality updates a year that are free of serious flaws AND on time.

If they can't, it's time for management changes.

Erik Finnegan
Gallente
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
Posted - 2010.11.11 23:23:00 - [169]
 

Thank you, CCP, for committing to excellence. I do not even want to imagine the greater implications of this date shift; now only two months before fanfest, this will have repercussions in the whole company.

But you're making your customers happy with this decision !

Noun Verber
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.11 23:28:00 - [170]
 

Will they all be called incursion, or will it go
1)In
2)Incur
3)Incursion

?

Also, the titular feature will be the one included last.

Alice Celadon
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.11.11 23:30:00 - [171]
 

To all the *excellence? OMG thanks* fanbois in this thread:

WHEN INCURSION COMES OUT AND IS AS AWFUL AS THE PAST TWO EXPANSIONS, WHAT KISS-@55 TALKING POINT WILL YOU BE PARROTING THEN?

I'm pretty curious. TIA for your answers.

Zaruda
Minmatar
APEX ARDENT COALITION
C0NVICTED
Posted - 2010.11.11 23:31:00 - [172]
 

Lets get this on I've been realy waiting very long. I'm ready to kill the nation let them bring it on. Yarr!

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.11.11 23:31:00 - [173]
 

You're doing the right thing, CCP. 100% support.

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.11.11 23:35:00 - [174]
 

Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 11/11/2010 23:36:50
Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 11/11/2010 23:36:11
Originally by: Alice Celadon
To all the *excellence? OMG thanks* fanbois in this thread:

WHEN INCURSION COMES OUT AND IS AS AWFUL AS THE PAST TWO EXPANSIONS, WHAT KISS-@55 TALKING POINT WILL YOU BE PARROTING THEN?

I'm pretty curious. TIA for your answers.


Exactly. By playing this card, CCP is setting themselves up for industry headline grabbing universal scorn unless this thing is absolutely perfect. And I mean PERFECT. We're talking Hilmar is Iceland's John Smedley type scorn.

Also, this is a card CCP can only play ONCE. And it's played.

I think the expansion is far more likely to delete a critical Windows system file than it is to be that, if for no other reason than CCP has actually DONE that before.

The Dominion/Tyrannus "vote for us for game of the year" backlash debacle will pale in comparison.


AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2010.11.11 23:37:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: Jack Gilligan
Originally by: Korerin Mayul
This is probably the most important and best news to come out of CCP in 2 years.
I totally support this, long may the drive for excellence continue.

keep going like this and i may start a third account.



You do realize this is spin, right?



You may well turn out to be right. But I'd rather give CCP the benefit of the doubt. Most players want CCP to take more time and get it right. They've asked for more time, now it's up to them to get it right. I'm hoping they will.

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2010.11.11 23:41:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: Jack Gilligan

By playing this card, CCP is setting themselves up for industry headline grabbing universal scorn unless this thing is absolutely perfect. And I mean PERFECT.


I will be happy with 'this expansion broke nothing and made the game somewhat better'. I suspect there will be no excrement-storm if it manages that.

Rheige Bladewhisper
Posted - 2010.11.11 23:43:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
I will be happy with 'this expansion broke nothing and made the game somewhat better'. I suspect there will be no excrement-storm if it manages that.

Same here, personally. But given the wait on the Noctis, WTB getting one in my stocking this Christmas. Not getting the ability to buy it, but the actual ship. :P

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.11.11 23:44:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
Originally by: Jack Gilligan
Originally by: Korerin Mayul
This is probably the most important and best news to come out of CCP in 2 years.
I totally support this, long may the drive for excellence continue.

keep going like this and i may start a third account.



You do realize this is spin, right?



You may well turn out to be right. But I'd rather give CCP the benefit of the doubt. Most players want CCP to take more time and get it right. They've asked for more time, now it's up to them to get it right. I'm hoping they will.


I'd love to give CCP the benefit of the doubt.

However, a lot of the stuff they've done since Quantum Rise (the last expansion they released that was actually of good quality that made the game better) gives me no reason to. Plus, they are showing signs of "cash shop envy" and they are spending a lot of our resources on games not called EVE Online.

And I've been burned far too many times by MMO developers to much like or trust any of them. Star Wars Galaxies NGE. I need say no more.

This delay is because management screwed up their development plan and they didn't finish on time. It has nothing to do with flaws in the expansion. It's becoming more and more clear that Incursion is an afterthought, shoehorned in the Dev's spare time away from Incarna/DUST514 because they have to release two expansions a year. Why not be honest and just own up to this? Don't lie to us about this being all about quality and nothing else when quality has never mattered to you before!

Keiko Kobayashi
Amarr
Celestial Janissaries
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.11.11 23:47:00 - [179]
 

I tried the character creator and although it looks really nice Iím glad youíre postponing the release because, it seems not ready for prime time yet, and I would hate to have to create a portrait that isnít exactly the way I want it to be.

By the way, are you going to allow redesigns of the character in the future as more features get added? At least for hair styles, make-up, tattoos, clothes, etc? Paid for with ISK if you wish...

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.11.11 23:53:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: Keiko Kobayashi
I tried the character creator and although it looks really nice Iím glad youíre postponing the release because, it seems not ready for prime time yet, and I would hate to have to create a portrait that isnít exactly the way I want it to be.

By the way, are you going to allow redesigns of the character in the future as more features get added? At least for hair styles, make-up, tattoos, clothes, etc? Paid for with ISK if you wish...


Paid for in the upcoming cash shop (CCP has hired someone to develop macrotranscams), mark my words. You won't have tailors and other players making you outfits and you wont' be paying ISK for them, you will be paying for them in dollars or euros.

The days of new things being added as tools in the sandbox are probably over, sadly.

PS: I call RMT "microtransactions" MACROtranscams because there is nothing micro (as in small) with respect to their intentions on your wallet.

If CCP wants to do RMT and add cash shops, they need to do it in another game, not this one.



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