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Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2010.11.13 18:18:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: GIGAR
Originally by: Sinjin Mokk
We know that the people that have been taken have been in many cases sent back as True Slaves to continue their acts of war. This too is supported by not just evidence, but by their own admission.

Would you mind stating your sources?


Well, there's Slave Heavenbound, a mother and unborn child taken in one of the first attacks, then apparently merged into a single, unified entity. She's not the most stable being, but apparently they're using her as a carrier pilot.

GIGAR
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.13 19:30:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
Originally by: GIGAR
Would you mind stating your sources?


Well, there's Slave Heavenbound, a mother and unborn child taken in one of the first attacks, then apparently merged into a single, unified entity. She's not the most stable being, but apparently they're using her as a carrier pilot.

Any way to verify that this was not a deliberate chosen action by Heavenbound?

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2010.11.13 20:22:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: GIGAR
Any way to verify that this was not a deliberate chosen action by Heavenbound?


Which part? The part where she was "uplifted" by the Nation, the part where her mind was fused with that of her unborn child, or the part where she has become an instrument in "uplifting" others?

Or the part where she got "slave" added to her name? As a fashion statement, perhaps?

Pilot, like you I'm suspicious of moral stories that cast someone as an unambiguous villain. The Gallente have been telling stories like that about the Caldari, recently (we're "barbarians," apparently), and the Caldari certainly tell stories about the decadent, arrogant Gallente trying to interfere in our lives. The "reality" is that we're two groups of humans with very different cultural values that don't get along very well. Each of our approaches seems to work for our own purposes. Nobody's really "good," nobody's really "evil." People are people.

Sansha Kuvakei is a person-- apparently a very old, very angry, and rather damaged person. The moral outrage of the empires led, decades ago, to the destruction of his dreamed-of utopia. The current Nation is the vengeful ghost of that dream.

At its best, the Nation is a dream of eternal peace, albeit a peace bought at the expense of individual choice.

At its worst, it's an interstellar predator with an appetite, bred, trained, and directed by a man determined to eliminate all threats to his dream. Please note that if he cannot control you, you are, in the long run, a threat to his dream.

You don't need to see Sansha Kuvakei or his minions as "evil" in order to oppose them, pilot. All that is necessary is to either believe that the individual is entitled to exist or, alternatively, that Sansha Kuvakei is not a fit leader for a humanity united into a hive-mind.

Considering that apparently CONCORD routinely finds Nation communities with their entire populations dead of neglect (can someone provide a link to that document?), you can perhaps see why letting this particular leader extract your individual will might not be such a good idea.

The Nation is a tragedy, the product of attempting to force an ideal onto reality. It does not need to be "evil" for it to be worth putting an end to.

Boma Airaken
Seekers of a Silent Paradise
Posted - 2010.11.14 06:33:00 - [34]
 

Aria is right, as usual but wastes too many words.

Nation is a failed vision, and a lame dog left lying in the hot sun for far too long. It has been and continues to be the perfect example of what happens when a psychotic dictator exerts their will.

It has festered far too long and has become the source of an infection, a nefarious plague that is in dire need of a cure. That cure is extinction. Harsh words I know, but in the words of the Imperative, we need to remember, "They come for ALL people".

Now is the time to put aside differences and unite. You won't have the opportunity to beat up your brothers anymore if you allow Sansha to continue. The scariest part is that you won't even have the ability to agree or disagree.

They come for ALL people.

Syn Callibri
Minmatar
21st Eridani Lighthorse
Posted - 2010.11.15 14:54:00 - [35]
 

For once...I agree with Boma, well said sir.



LetumDeAstralis
Posted - 2010.11.16 02:18:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
Fortunately, CONCORD seems to consider us the best countermeasure to Kuvakei's forces. We have an opportunity, here, to counteract some of the damage we do and, better still, to shift ourselves from "extremely useful" to flat-out "indispensable."


I am not advocating that we let the Nation run amock. I am advocating that we wait until the time is right before we cast our lot in with the 4 empires and concord to fight them off. Let the 4 empires and concord come to realize that we are truly indispensable and have them ask us for help. While doing so, they can sweeten the deal a bit.

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
A quick glance at your map should answer that question. CONCORD recognizes Sansha's Nation as the sovereign power in Stain; capsuleer methods of claiming de-facto sovereignty do not work there.

HA! I dare you to take a nice juicy capital ship into Stain. Let us see who truly owns that region of space. CONCORD recognizes Sansha’s sovereignty but it is far from the truth.

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
Pilot, let me lay this out for you plainly. We are not so well-developed as a group as to be fit for rulership. Our culture and society, to the extent that it exists apart from humanity, is in its infancy.


Apparently you are not understanding anything in my message. So I will say it again hopefully you will understand my message this time.
We as a whole should wait for Concord and the 4 empires to come to us begging for aid.
We as a whole should wait for Concord and the 4 empires to loosen its tyrannical hold on the capsuleer nation.
To include the following:
Allow proper usage of capital vessels in Empspace
Allow the usage of warp disruption field generators in empire space.
Allow widespread usage of bomb launchers through Empire

The Nation is a threat. It is also a way for us to maneuver politically.

Boma Airaken
Seekers of a Silent Paradise
Posted - 2010.11.16 03:32:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: LetumDeAstralis
Originally by: Aria Jenneth
Fortunately, CONCORD seems to consider us the best countermeasure to Kuvakei's forces. We have an opportunity, here, to counteract some of the damage we do and, better still, to shift ourselves from "extremely useful" to flat-out "indispensable."


I am not advocating that we let the Nation run amock. I am advocating that we wait until the time is right before we cast our lot in with the 4 empires and concord to fight them off. Let the 4 empires and concord come to realize that we are truly indispensable and have them ask us for help. While doing so, they can sweeten the deal a bit.

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
A quick glance at your map should answer that question. CONCORD recognizes Sansha's Nation as the sovereign power in Stain; capsuleer methods of claiming de-facto sovereignty do not work there.

HA! I dare you to take a nice juicy capital ship into Stain. Let us see who truly owns that region of space. CONCORD recognizes Sansha’s sovereignty but it is far from the truth.

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
Pilot, let me lay this out for you plainly. We are not so well-developed as a group as to be fit for rulership. Our culture and society, to the extent that it exists apart from humanity, is in its infancy.


Apparently you are not understanding anything in my message. So I will say it again hopefully you will understand my message this time.
We as a whole should wait for Concord and the 4 empires to come to us begging for aid.
We as a whole should wait for Concord and the 4 empires to loosen its tyrannical hold on the capsuleer nation.
To include the following:
Allow proper usage of capital vessels in Empspace
Allow the usage of warp disruption field generators in empire space.
Allow widespread usage of bomb launchers through Empire

The Nation is a threat. It is also a way for us to maneuver politically.



You sir, have truly lost your humanity, and sound more like the enemy than Kuvakei himself does. Remember. They come for ALL people.

Blind Witness
Posted - 2010.11.16 05:08:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Boma Airaken
You sir, have truly lost your humanity, and sound more like the enemy than Kuvakei himself does.

I know you are not surprised by this fact.

Quote:
Remember. They come for ALL people.

Do they? I don't think you understand Nation.

You know what you are capsuleer. Or do you?

Deep down, why do you fight Nation? Is it for a greater good or is it to justify your own sense of humanity? What do you know of Nation?

Are you a human, a beast, or are you more? When you look into the mirror which one do you see?

How many have you killed, Boma Airaken? There is no death in Nation. All have a place. Even you, Boma Airaken. You are fulfilling your role quite nicely. Tell me though, are you fulfilling it willingly or are you being drawn down that path?

Why won't CONCORD tell you the truth? Why won't the Empires unite a second time, wipe Nation from the world?

As Aria says, they rely on Capsuleers. They use us for proxy wars. They use us to do their dirty work. They use us to kill, to destroy.

We are their disposable soldiers, their weapons of mass destruction, their deniable assets. That is what we are!

If we stood united, and forged our own destiny, they would turn on us just as they turned on Him. We wouldn't see it coming would we?

Would we!?

snake driver
Amarr
Posted - 2010.11.16 06:06:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: snake driver on 16/11/2010 06:10:32
Originally by: LetumDeAstralis


Apparently you are not understanding anything in my message. So I will say it again hopefully you will understand my message this time.
We as a whole should wait for Concord and the 4 empires to come to us begging for aid.
We as a whole should wait for Concord and the 4 empires to loosen its tyrannical hold on the capsuleer nation.
To include the following:
Allow proper usage of capital vessels in Empspace
Allow the usage of warp disruption field generators in empire space.
Allow widespread usage of bomb launchers through Empire

The Nation is a threat. It is also a way for us to maneuver politically.



What you said was quite clear, but it is based on several assumptions which Aria has argued against.

First, you assume that the Empires need us in order to win this war. While they would most certainly like our assistance, the navies which they can call upon for a genuine war are far in excess of what we have access to as capsuleers. It is therefor possible that they can weather this without our assistance.

Next you assume that they will come begging for our aid and will be willing to bargain for it. Keep in mind that cloning technology is tightly controlled and is based in stations controlled by the various empires (for most capsuleers). As such, they have the ability to pull the plug, as it were, on our immortality. This is a very unpleasant reality.

Now, even if we grant that they need us, and that they will be willing to negotiate for our support rather than coerce it, there is still the question of whether there will still be time for us to turn the tide. If Sansha's Nation has already done enough damage to the military forces of the four navies that they are coming to us for assistance, then it's possible that it will be too late - that even with our assistance, the war will be lost.

To summarize, your suggestion that we hold out our aid and use it a political leverage is based on a best-case scenario - That they empires will be unable to survive on their own, that they will be willing to negotiate for our aid, and that we will be able to turn the tide. The likelihood that all of these assumptions are correct is relatively small, and the consequences if they are not range from bad to worse.

Let us consider those consequences:
Worst case: We hold out, Nation demolishes the non-capsuleer navies, the empires come running to us, and we fail to turn the tide. Nation wins. We are now royally ****ed, as Nation considers us something along the lines of a cancer.

Not-so-awful: The empires win without our assistance. Now they're ****ed off that we didn't help, and between their control over most of the cloning facilities in the cluster and CONCORD's ability to control our actions in space, they decide our leash needs to be a bit shorter and there isn't much we can do about it.

Still ugly: The empires realize they need us and use the above mentioned methods of control to coerce our cooperation - basically, we either help them fight or they turn off our clones.

Do you see now why we think your suggestion is a bad idea? It's a gamble with a slim chance of success and potentially catastrophic consequences if it fails. It's an interesting thought, but it's a very poor plan of action.

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2010.11.16 07:21:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 16/11/2010 08:20:23
snake driver:

Well said. Thank you.


LetumDeAstralis:

Snake driver has said most of what I would have (and probably more clearly). One thing, though....

Originally by: LetumDeAstralis
HA! I dare you to take a nice juicy capital ship into Stain. Let us see who truly owns that region of space. CONCORD recognizes Sansha’s sovereignty but it is far from the truth.


This is ... an odd claim.

I'm there now. I spent the last few hours swanning merrily about two or three constellations, picking off Nation battleships and harassing my neighbors. I did see a Chimera, but it didn't belong to this "Stain Wagon" lot. In fact, I didn't see a single ship of theirs. Not one.

As far as I can tell from the inside, the capsuleers of Stain are a fractured pile of small to medium-sized corporations and alliances. There may be a couple "big dogs," but frankly, those with the wherewithal to claim space elsewhere seem mostly to have done so. And why wouldn't they, when development options offer so much more than the highly-restricted territory of a sovereign power?

Last time I checked, there didn't seem to even be any single, or even any two, primary hubs of heavy capsuleer activity. We're all just crammed into the nooks.

Compared to the sovereign capsuleer territories I've lived in or passed through, it looks about as unified as a bag of scattered ball bearings.

Every last major station is in the hands of the Nation. There are no outposts, and capsuleer fortifications are limited to basic private orbital facilities.

Perhaps you could point me to what I'm missing? If there's an actual, genuine hub in the Nation's territory, I'd love to know about it-- particularly if there's one specific place the Nation's minions work out of. But as far as I can tell, the Nation offers relatively equal rewards anywhere agents of a certain quality are found.

Sure, we blow them up. They replace them just as fast; their numbers do not decrease with time.

"On the ropes" is not my impression.

And this brings me to one last observation: who is this "we" you speak of, capsuleer? Our entire endlessly-fractious class?

Getting us all on the same page is ... well.

Ha. Um, no. It's not going to happen, pilot.


Blind Witness:

Allow me to answer a few of your questions, myself, since on this matter I stand with Mr. Airaken.

Originally by: Blind Witness
Deep down, why do you fight Nation? Is it for a greater good or is it to justify your own sense of humanity? What do you know of Nation?


That it is a dire threat to our people's faith, home, and way of life. This is, from both Boma's and my perspectives, unacceptable; we are both still defenders in our own ways.

There is more, of course, but that alone would be enough.

Quote:
Are you a human, a beast, or are you more? When you look into the mirror which one do you see?


All of the above. And nothing at all.

That's my own answer. Boma, I seem to recall, still sees a human (I hope he'll correct me if I misremember).

Quote:
If we stood united, and forged our own destiny, they would turn on us just as they turned on Him. We wouldn't see it coming would we?

Would we!?


Who is "we," Ms.-formerly-Ruutarhara?

I do. You do. Many others do. Do we, as capsuleers, collectively?

Apparently not. But if we cannot avoid dying at the hands of our creators, well, perhaps we deserve just such an ending.

In the final accounting, all that matters is that we play our part and play it well. The rest will be as it will be.

Blind Witness
Posted - 2010.11.16 07:55:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Blind Witness on 16/11/2010 08:03:24
Originally by: Aria Jenneth
In the final accounting, all that matters is that we play our part and play it well. The rest will be as it will be.

What I want to know is this: who is it that defines our role? Is doing what is expected of us truly fulfilling that role?

You say we fight the proxy wars of the Empires. We fight Nation, the other pirate groups, dissident groups within the empires themselves. To what end? What is our purpose?

We are the drones, set free upon the landscape, feeding and building our strength and numbers until we are threatened or offered another trinket. When we are bad, we are punished. When we are good, we are rewarded.

We are once-human beasts, Aria. We are not the Children of Naught, we are the Beasts of Burden of the Empires themselves. The Capsule is our collar; our freedom, our leash; CONCORD, the post we are tied to.

The path is so clear, Aria. The exit is so clearly marked, and all we have to do is confront our eventual end-state, and defeat it. You forgot; learn from itThank you Pilot, such an important distinctionenough

Our Promised Land is there, waiting for us. They won't let us have it without a fight, and Nation need not be our enemy. They are as much puppets as we are, but you fail to grasp the most obvious hole in your perceptions, a gap in your reasoning.

Iteration, my dear. You look at the Sleepers as a key to our future, but you miss the greatest lesson they have to teach. It is a lesson so inexorably linked to what we are that I pray you can figure it out. It is a lesson you blindly ignore, or perhaps cannot allow yourself - as of yet - to understand.

Once we find our path, we cannot leave our brothers and sisters behind. To do so would be cruel.

Regardless I don't want to ruin the beauty of that realization. It will be so joyful.

Belfelmalak
Posted - 2010.11.16 08:04:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Belfelmalak on 16/11/2010 08:04:27
We are above mere mortal judgment, but God will be holding the scales when your last clone dies. He has set the Nation upon us as a test and how we respond will determine if we are worthy to rule over the masses of humanity.

Resist the Evil of the Sansha or be condemed to eternal torment in the fires of the abyss.

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2010.11.16 08:56:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Blind Witness
What I want to know is this: who is it that defines our role? Is doing what is expected of us truly fulfilling that role?


Think of yourself as stardust and computational trickery, and this will become a much easier question.

We play the roles we are given, pilot. Sometimes the role is to rebel, sometimes the role is to remain loyal. The lodestar of the living is the context into which they are placed.

For Boma and me, as much as we may differ, our common lodestar is very frequently the Achura. If we live to fulfill our role as defenders, that is well. If we die to fulfill that same role, that is just as well.

Without that role, I suspect neither of us would consider our lives worth saving. Boma's dissatisfaction with the direction our people have chosen is, from this angle, a very minor difference.

Quote:
You say we fight the proxy wars of the Empires. We fight Nation, the other pirate groups, dissident groups within the empires themselves. To what end? What is our purpose?


That is an unfinished book. You may remember that I set out to explore exactly that.

Quote:
We are the drones, set free upon the landscape, feeding and building our strength and numbers until we are threatened or offered another trinket. When we are bad, we are punished. When we are good, we are rewarded.


Would that our training was so consistent.

Quote:
We are once-human beasts, Aria. We are not the Children of Naught, we are the Beasts of Burden of the Empires themselves. The Capsule is our collar; our freedom, our leash; CONCORD, the post we are tied to.


Oh, that's quite the nice ironic twist, there: freedom as a leash.

What you describe is what the empires meant us to be. Are we that? ... It's not clear to me at all that they intended us to be what we are. Others may have, but likely not the empires.

No master desires a changeable and treacherous servant.

Quote:
The path is so clear, Aria. The exit is so clearly marked, and all we have to do is confront our eventual end-state, and defeat it. You forgot; learn from itThank you Pilot, such an important distinctionenough


I see you are getting along with yourselves, much as ever.

Whether our end-state is to be embraced, fought, or simply accounted for as humans account for "human nature" dremains to be seen.

Quote:
Our Promised Land is there, waiting for us. They won't let us have it without a fight ...


"They?" "Our?" Are you even still properly a capsuleer?

Your path and ours may very well diverge. And even if not, it may be that our "Promised Land" is only death. We may be a temporary phenomenon in this world.

Quote:
... and Nation need not be our enemy.


True. If the Nation is extinguished, it will be no enemy to anyone anymore.

I am sorry, but this is not a path from which I will be turned. The Nation is a child of tragedy and arrogance, an attempt at changing human fate. It was folly from its conception. It is folly now-- miserable folly.

Kuvakei was, and remains, a weak and arrogant fool. The future, whatever it may be, does not lie on his path.

Quote:
You look at the Sleepers as a key to our future, but you miss the greatest lesson they have to teach.


You seem to claim to know what the Sleepers are. Do enlighten us.

Quote:
Once we find our path, we cannot leave our brothers and sisters behind. To do so would be cruel.


"Brothers and sisters?"

One who does not share my path is brother or sister in name only, if that. A tiger's right is a man's wrong-- and grievous harm results where one plays the other's part.

If our path demands solitude, we walk alone.

Quote:
Regardless I don't want to ruin the beauty of that realization. It will be so joyful.


You always did like to play at superior insight. I await the day it is demonstrated, Ms. Ruutarhara.

Boma Airaken
Seekers of a Silent Paradise
Posted - 2010.11.16 09:15:00 - [44]
 

Such a beatiful example of Achura Shuijing. With Nation, there would be none of this beauty. That is reason enough.

My people are Achura. They are Matari, Amarr, Gallente, and yes, even ethnic Caldari. They are not Sanshas Nation. They will not BE Sanshas Nation.

I stand here virtually alone in defiance of this Nation, outnumbered and outgunned. I spit on it and all it represents. You cannot and will not convince me. Your only option is to extinguish me.

Bring it.

Victoria Stecker
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2010.11.16 17:13:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Belfelmalak
Edited by: Belfelmalak on 16/11/2010 08:04:27
We are above mere mortal judgment, but God will be holding the scales when your last clone dies. He has set the Nation upon us as a test and how we respond will determine if we are worthy to rule over the masses of humanity.

Resist the Evil of the Sansha or be condemed to eternal torment in the fires of the abyss.


Already damned, still going to make sure that Sansha himself burns with us. You can keep pretending there's a heaven waiting for you if that's what it takes to motivate you.

Blind Witness
Posted - 2010.11.16 23:19:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
You always did like to play at superior insight. I await the day it is demonstrated, Ms. Ruutarhara.

Have you ever flown a Tengu, Aria?

Have you ever lost one?

Did it change you?

You're missing something Aria. Something important. It's so subtle... easily missed...

Fullerite-C540
Fullerite-C84
Megacyte

There are some other necessary components, but perhaps you'll figure it out. Playing the Deceiver to beat him at his own game, perhaps, but in the end we really do have the same goals in mind.

Ten Hours.

Never enough time is there? I'll see you on the other side Aria. My time is soon to be up. Reborn, renewed, refreshed. A new perspective.

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2010.11.16 23:52:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Blind Witness
Have you ever flown a Tengu, Aria?


It's my favorite ship, in fact.

Quote:
Have you ever lost one?


No.

Quote:
Did it change you?


I'm aware of the potential for it to do so-- more specifically, for it to damage my carefully-honed ability to immerse myself fully in the vessel's systems.

You hint at something more.

Quote:
You're missing something Aria. Something important. It's so subtle... easily missed...

Fullerite-C540
Fullerite-C84
Megacyte


C3-FTM Acid. Yes, I'm familiar with it; there have been some entertaining theories about that flying around lately, notably about the possibility that ours, and thus, our mental stability, has been tampered with.

I remain exceedingly skeptical.

Quote:
There are some other necessary components, but perhaps you'll figure it out. Playing the Deceiver to beat him at his own game, perhaps, but in the end we really do have the same goals in mind.


Of that, we'll see.

Quote:
Ten Hours.

Never enough time is there? I'll see you on the other side Aria. My time is soon to be up. Reborn, renewed, refreshed. A new perspective.


Yes-- an interesting habit you've developed, but by whose direction, I wonder.

Blind Witness
Posted - 2010.11.17 00:33:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
You hint at something more.

Yes.

Quote:
Quote:
You're missing something Aria. Something important. It's so subtle... easily missed...

Fullerite-C540
Fullerite-C84
Megacyte


C3-FTM Acid. Yes, I'm familiar with it; there have been some entertaining theories about that flying around lately, notably about the possibility that ours, and thus, our mental stability, has been tampered with.

I remain exceedingly skeptical.

No. No no no. It's more easy than that. Remember that path I mentioned? How you're not ready for it yet? Well, as long as you're connected to your past, you can never follow it alone.

That isn't to say that it cannot be followed, and that is not to say that we haven't started down it. The doors are opened, the question is will we want to step through, and for how long will we do so?

Quote:
Yes-- an interesting habit you've developed, but by whose direction, I wonder.

You haven't figured it out yet?

Tyber Zaan
Posted - 2010.11.17 14:25:00 - [49]
 

Hey! I may plug my mind into a ship, and am cloned when I die, but at least I still have some semblance of individuality! All indicators from the nation say this is removed from their "citizens". I would really like to stay me.

Syn Callibri
Minmatar
21st Eridani Lighthorse
Posted - 2010.11.17 16:04:00 - [50]
 

Unlike the DRONES of Nation, the capsuleers of New Eden fight because we choose to...thats right we have a choice, what "Slavewhatever" of Nation can say that?


Tyber Zaan
Posted - 2010.11.17 16:35:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Syn Callibri
Unlike the DRONES of Nation, the capsuleers of New Eden fight because we choose to...thats right we have a choice, what "Slavewhatever" of Nation can say that?




Exactly. Becoming a part of the nation is a fate worse than death, to have yourself stripped of your will, your individuality, any shred of what you once were.

I will fight the nation, and I would die, and I mean actually DIE, before letting them take me.

Cold Fracture
Caldari
Thirteenth Gate
Posted - 2010.11.18 00:34:00 - [52]
 

Now, what do we have here?
Oh, ****. Another wannabe trans-humanist.

Give some people a few implants and they go all crazy with "power".

Here's a news flash for ya sunshine:

1. You are a human.
No, getting a few implants does not make you nothing more than an implanted waste of half decent protein.

2. You sure as hell ain't that inspiring example of humanity either.
No, you ain't the best nor the brightest from humanity.

3. You ain't that scary.
No, anything any capsuleer has e-v-e-r done so far as even register when put to scale with what humanity has done so far.
Saints nor Devils.

And that brings me to the point. If you think your implants give you the run of the show. -It's your implants running you as the show.

About those Sanshas? Just another human appliance running around.

What about you capsuleer? You want to be one more on the list of appliances that humanity needs trouble itself to pull the plug from?

Me, I think it's better to howl as the real beast.

Iteration Nikiruu
Posted - 2010.11.18 02:54:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Cold Fracture

About those Sanshas? Just another human appliance running around.

To use your own words:
Quote:
1. You are a human.
No, getting a few implants does not make you nothing more than an implanted waste of half decent protein.

So, kill Nation "drones", you kill humans. Implanted humans. Humans not in control of their actions. Slaves.

Are they dead or are they alive? Do they think? Do they feel? Do you know enough to make that judgment? Or do you blindly act, a beast, clawing and ripping at another meal?

A slave to your instincts. Killing humans. Yes, such a noble act. The happy Drooler slavering at the prospect of a fresh meal.

Isn't it interesting how we hold double standards? A Capsuleer who kills, implanted and acting at the behest of his CEO is doing what is in his nature, fulfilling his purpose. A Sansha supporter, similarly defined, is seen as an "appliance", a disposable part.

How... quaint.

Cold Fracture, you do make the case for mediocrity. What if there are those who want to be more than simply beasts? Should they simply settle for being less than what they can be? Should you be their Master, telling them to aim just a little lower, expect just a little less?

This waste of protein is nothing special, but the soul, the will, the driving force behind it strives for so much more. I refuse to see the world through your limited perspective.

Nation is not what you think it is. But please, continue to do as you wish. No one is stopping you.

Think about that.

Hooch Flux
Caldari
Posted - 2010.11.18 13:51:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Iteration Nikiruu
Originally by: Cold Fracture

About those Sanshas? Just another human appliance running around.

To use your own words:
Quote:
1. You are a human.
No, getting a few implants does not make you nothing more than an implanted waste of half decent protein.

So, kill Nation "drones", you kill humans. Implanted humans. Humans not in control of their actions. Slaves.

Are they dead or are they alive? Do they think? Do they feel? Do you know enough to make that judgment? Or do you blindly act, a beast, clawing and ripping at another meal?

A slave to your instincts. Killing humans. Yes, such a noble act. The happy Drooler slavering at the prospect of a fresh meal.

Isn't it interesting how we hold double standards? A Capsuleer who kills, implanted and acting at the behest of his CEO is doing what is in his nature, fulfilling his purpose. A Sansha supporter, similarly defined, is seen as an "appliance", a disposable part.

How... quaint.

Cold Fracture, you do make the case for mediocrity. What if there are those who want to be more than simply beasts? Should they simply settle for being less than what they can be? Should you be their Master, telling them to aim just a little lower, expect just a little less?

This waste of protein is nothing special, but the soul, the will, the driving force behind it strives for so much more. I refuse to see the world through your limited perspective.

Nation is not what you think it is. But please, continue to do as you wish. No one is stopping you.

Think about that.


Can you smell that? Smells like Fedo droppings!

What a load of brainwashed nonsense!

Syn Callibri
Minmatar
21st Eridani Lighthorse
Posted - 2010.11.18 14:48:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Syn Callibri on 18/11/2010 14:48:25
Originally by: Iteration Nikiruu
So, kill Nation "drones", you kill humans. Implanted humans. Humans not in control of their actions. Slaves.



I am Matari...death is freedom and mercy to those without either, "humans" deserve both. Consider that before you spout mindless drooling retoric again.


Tiara Demir
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.18 14:51:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Syn Callibri
I am Matari...death is freedom and mercy to those without either, "humans" deserve both. Consider that before you spout mindless drooling retoric again.


Death is not freedom - but it's the next best thing for those who are beyond our help. If we didn't accept that, we'd be groveling in Amarr chains before the month was over.

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2010.11.18 23:32:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 18/11/2010 23:32:54
Originally by: Blind Witness
Remember that path I mentioned? How you're not ready for it yet? Well, as long as you're connected to your past, you can never follow it alone.


The past is the foundation of the present. To forget it is a mistake, even if aspects of it can mislead as to what should be done in the future.

Quote:
You haven't figured it out yet?


Entity formerly-called Ms. Ruutarhara, do you realize how little of substance you have ever said?

You taunt. You tease. You hint at greater knowledge-- which you functionally never provide.

You want us to follow your trail of riddling speech, but what is there at the end of it-- but you?

If you want my respect, or even my continued attention, you will need to show that you have more to offer.

Clarity is not a sin-- unless you have to hide the substance of what you have to say.

To answer your question, there are at least two obvious parties most likely to be responsible for your present vagabond state.

The most likely of these is yourself. Or selves.

Kaimar Redcloud
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.11.19 02:19:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Kaimar Redcloud on 19/11/2010 03:41:54
Originally by: Syn Callibri
Edited by: Syn Callibri on 18/11/2010 14:48:25
Originally by: Iteration Nikiruu
So, kill Nation "drones", you kill humans. Implanted humans. Humans not in control of their actions. Slaves.



I am Matari...death is freedom and mercy to those without either, "humans" deserve both. Consider that before you spout mindless drooling retoric again.




Death is only freedom and mercy to those WITHOUT HOPE of either. As long as the Matari have breath in

their bodies and people willing to fight alongside them, they don't need that type of freedom. The

slaves of the Nation on the other hand will never know any other freedom again.

While I will never tire of explaining to the Amarrians the error of their ways at gunpoint, those

concerns MUST be set aside in the face of this new threat. If we wait for the empires to ask us for

help, it will already be too late. If we wait, no matter how it ends, it ends badly for us. Either we

end as slaves of the nation or despised by the very people who gave birth to us. However, if we act now

we end up as heroes, assuming we win of course. And grateful people are far more likely to grant favors

to heroes. Acting now puts us in a much stronger position to make "requests" for weapons free in all

sec space. It also puts us in a stronger bargaining position for remuneration. Ammo isn't free, after

all. If that makes me a bit mercenary, so be it. I am Gallente.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sylux Raynes
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.11.20 02:21:00 - [59]
 

*Quietly listening until this point, a Jin-Mei male finally interjects calmly and patiently*

I am no Matari, but I would suggest they have a far greater understanding of what it means to have your freedom - your very sense of humanity - stripped from you than any of the rest of us could claim to have.

With that said, what is proposed by the Nation is nothing short of mental slavery, your individuality caged away in the dark recesses of your own mind, suppressed and unable to break free for eternity. That is a form of enduring torment I am not eager to experience. I am perplexed that anyone would be willing to promote such a thing.

From my perspective: The one who slew me in such a state would be my savior, and I eternally in their debt.


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