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blankseplocked Unlimited Skill Queue-ALREADY OFF TOPIC AND DEAD
 
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Enord Loej
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:02:00 - [31]
 

What exactly is wrong with character farming? If they aren't logging on you wont see them. They'll buy your PLEX or give CCP more capital to reinvest. If their intent it to sell them on the Bazaar that gives people who buy characters more of a selection.

northwesten
Amarr
Trinity Corporate Services
Terran United Federation
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:06:00 - [32]
 

Don;t need to read the post. I don;t agree regardless and 24 hours is just fine.



Nomad Vherokic
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:09:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Alara IonStorm
CCP knows who you are, you should get a limited extended skill que by sended in deployment orders or something along those lines for any military.

They are paying customers and if they want to come home and not be six months behind I say let them. They are defending our Countries and if the penalty is not going on line why not give them an extention.



I agree that if you are a long-term subscriber, for instance you pay 6 or 12 months up-front and have an extended break, then it is perfectly reasonable to queue up a long set of skills to cover that time. You could say the same for someone stationed on an oil-rig for 6 months without access, for example, so this isn't purely a military problem.

Please don't use the 'defending our countries' argument though to justify this. We aren't. We are doing our job, which is to go where we are ordered, and defend the interests of 'our country' whether they are good or bad.

Mardero
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:13:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Tippia
No. It makes character farming too easy (sorry, just because you don't want people to mention the reason doesn't make it an invalid one).

The skill queue isn't there to let you train AFK — it's there to let you switch skills at 4AM without actually having to be awake at 4AM. That's its sole purpose. It may be called a skill queue, but that's not what it is: it's a skill switching buffer, and 24h is all that is ever needed to serve that particular purpose.

Would simply extending the buffer to a week instead of 24 hours not somewhat mitigate the discomfort created by the current buffer size, and be enough of a deterrent to character farming?

Clarion Abbot
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:13:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Clarion Abbot on 03/11/2010 15:15:47
Extended training queues for military personel should come in when conscription hits and people are forced to join the armed forces.

Untill then, joining the military is a career choice, arguably an admirable one, and whilst it has many positive elements over Joe Blogs working on a factory line screwing caps on the top of bottles (sense of pride, see the world, half decent wage, training, a small chance you may end up defending your country, etc) it also has many negative elements, one of which is the fact you will not be about to change your skill timers in a space fantasy game.

These positives and negatives are fairly clear from when you sign up.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:20:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Mardero
Would simply extending the buffer to a week instead of 24 hours not somewhat mitigate the discomfort created by the current buffer size, and be enough of a deterrent to character farming?
No. There is no discomfort with the current size since it handily covers one sleeping cycle. You don't sleep for a week at a stretch, do you?

Chesty McJubblies
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:26:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: Chesty McJubblies
*

(* Obviously a slight exaggeration)

LOL yes don't we all just play EVE to keep our skillqueues going? Wink
If that was indeed the case EVE would be a very boring game ..

But yes it seems reasonable that if someone can't login for a number of months they'd stay subscribed if they can queue a lot of skills before leaving.

Mardero
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:28:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Mardero
Would simply extending the buffer to a week instead of 24 hours not somewhat mitigate the discomfort created by the current buffer size, and be enough of a deterrent to character farming?
No. There is no discomfort with the current size since it handily covers one sleeping cycle.

Ah, but there is, since I feel it. I doubt I am alone in this.

Arkanor
Gallente
Ixion Defence Systems
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:38:00 - [39]
 

"Character farming" will be done regardless, and it's not like we have ghost training any more.

I say open 'er up!

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:38:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Mardero
Ah, but there is, since I feel it. I doubt I am alone in this.
Then you're either suffering from a sleeping disorder, or you're misinterpreting the problem the queue is meant to solve.

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:44:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Sebastiann Kane
Edited by: Sebastiann Kane on 03/11/2010 15:41:37
REALLY TRIED WITH THIS ONE BUT ONLY ABOUT 2 PEOPLE OUT OF EVERYONE WHO POSTED HAD ANYTHING RELEVENT TO SAY. EVERYONE ELSE WAS EITHER A TROLL, POSTED NO CONTENT, HAD NOT READ THE THREAD OR OFFERED NO EVIDENCE.

THANKS FOR READING THOUGH


Man talk about babbies.

There was only a little bit of trolling, that aside, just because people disagree does not mean they are trolling or off topic. Conveniently trying to avoid issues that arise due to your suggestions is laughable.

Sebastiann Kane
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:52:00 - [42]
 

Shut up spank your a **** (how about some trolling myself lols)

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:57:00 - [43]
 

…btw, "people are already farming" isn't a proper argument — just because people are doing it doesn't mean it should be made even easier.

"Onoz, someone found an item duping exploit… oh well, better make item duping legal and make sure everyone does it." Rolling Eyes

Muul Udonii
Minmatar
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:58:00 - [44]
 

Agree that one reason to not continue a trial membership to a paid one is that you have to keep logging in to change skills.

But it's also correct that the only reason some people log in is to change skills.

I'm not sure it really matters why you pay for the game, so long as you pay.

KaarBaak
Minmatar
Seatec Astronomy
Posted - 2010.11.03 16:00:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Sebastiann Kane
(Please dont talk about ghost training and character farming)


Unfortunately, char farming is a fundamental reason this idea has no legs. A person organizes his fleet of macro-miners to make isk to pay for plex. He then applies the plex to accounts and sets up canned training queues (eg. Researcher, cyno pilot, miner, &etc.). Close the oven. Return in 6 months and put that batch of chars up for sale. Rinse, repeat.
Quote:


One of the only things i do not like about EVE is the limited skill queue. Quite a few of my corporation are out at the moment in Afghanistan and their game is over for six months. Plus there are times when RL issues come up and people just want to forget about the game for a month or two knowing full well that they can come back to it. You pay for your long term subscription and while you have flight time you train.


Here, you present the "military argument, but you later tell people to not argue against it (much like the char farming counter.). Clever, but again voluntary military service conflicting with a spaceship game is no justification for changing a fundamental game mechanic.

Quote:
The main argument that everyone gives against it is that you can start farming characters as you can load up a years worth of training and ghost train them for free. But this is not true ghost training does not exist anymore and if someone wanted to farm characters they would just do what they are doing now but be forced to log on more frequently.


As you say, ghost training was removed some time ago, so I assume this paragraph was written to add quantity of words vs quality of argument to your post.

Quote:
The real reason that CCP keeps the queue at 24 hours is because they believe if it was unlimited then people would lose there emotional attachment to the game as it would be out of there minds for long periods of time and they might just quit.


I've been digging the forums to find the reference from CCP that indicates this. Please cite your source. My recollection is that the queue was an accommodation for players complaining about "alarm clock training."

Quote:
The problem with that is that individual psychologists can be wrong and they have no long term data to support that model.


And...? Again, if you have contrary evidence, please provide.

Quote:
It would be very interesting to see the raw data for increased subscriptions when they introduced the 24hr training queue.


You/we will never see this, so an irrelevant statement.

Quote:
My personal belief is that that they have people believing that the 24hr skill queue keeps this game social and that people will play more with a smaller skill queue when the real truth is that CCP is a business and they believe that they will keep people hooked on the game if they force them to log in.


Again, you're forgetting why the queue was introduced. It was an accommodation added at the demand of players, not a feature. It is often lauded as one of the first victories of the CSM.

(cont'd)


Bacon Slapper
Minmatar
Red Federation
Posted - 2010.11.03 16:10:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Goremageddon Box
Originally by: Alara IonStorm
Originally by: Goremageddon Box

im usually pretty reasonable when it comes to certain things but this would be a ******ed idea in the fact that,

A. the army would never let peple send their official orders to a ****ing gaming company
b. it would help terrorists,
c. its just stupid

I see you pulled the terrorist card...

Good job there!



its not hard to intercept stuff like that yo, but realy, that would cause ccp to inquire large bribes from certain muslim entities.....

xD

maybe even venezuelan ones now that theyre trying to go all commi-pro

but yea, sending somewhat classified information to people who dont need it is not cool.


but i don't see the point of not having longer skill ques if u have to now have an active account to train.

its no different then buying plex and selling them for isk, except its more long term, creating characters and selling those for isk, ur always paying the sub somehow, so any point against it is irrelevant besides the fact that they wnat u to log on 24 hours before your current skill que finishes to add another one to it, no matter the length.


:)




The terroirsts finding out about US army deployment info isn't a far leap at. CCP and Hezbula are already as close as bread and butter. They are already laundering money though supposed ingame donations which result in a fake item which then turns into cash in the hands off CCP which is then handed over to the Pakistani government. CCP Adia and others have been accused of being active participants in Hamas. Whenever light is exposed on this it CCP promply puts the "hush" on it and the perpetrators are "delt with" I'm willing to bet that the blood of US soldiers is already all over CCP's hands.

KaarBaak
Minmatar
Seatec Astronomy
Posted - 2010.11.03 16:11:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: KaarBaak on 03/11/2010 16:14:53
Originally by: Sebastiann Kane
But they are definately missing a trick

If they increase the skill queue to unlimited or at least 6 months then they will get far more subscribers as it will include all of those people who dont want to log in ever few days or constantly monitor there skill queue. Consider back when the game started and there was no skill queue and how many people who play now would not have been interested in being forced to log in constantly or setting there alarm clocks in the middle of the night.


You previously argue that you believe sub numbers would show the addition of the 24-hr queue added insignificant number of players. Why do you think adding an even longer queue would add more? I doubt this fearture (24-hr or unlimited) has ANY significant impact on subscriptions outside of more char farming accounts.

Quote:
This thread will change nothing but its just to let you know that CCP dont have a skill queue for you its for their increased revenue subscriptons and they are asking the wrong psychologists as if they increased it they would have a lot more subscribers but are to short sighted to see it.


For this one I'll fall back on the "oh dear! CCP is a business and maintains EVE Online to make money, rather than a love for Internet spaceships.". It's an over-played argument, but that's only because it's true.

Quote:
Lastly there are lots of ingame things to keep people hooked such as plexing. its based on the theory of skinners operant conditioning and operates exactly the same way as games like WOW and Diablo. its a form of gambling but you invest time instead of money and hope for a jackpot. This is why you will meet people who plex and do nothing else.


Again, as this is off-topic, I assume it's just more padding for your post.

Quote:
Any thoughts and please read the whole thing through first.


Hopefully I fulfilled your "read the whole post" requirement. Sorry to see that you gave up the fight after only 1.5 pages of counter-argument. I guess you're not quite as passionate about it as you thought.

Thread TL;DR---nothing to see here.

KB

CCP Spitfire


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.11.03 16:14:00 - [48]
 

Moved from 'EVE General Discussion'.


Mardero
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.03 16:36:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Mardero on 03/11/2010 16:40:17
Originally by: Tippia
Then you're either suffering from a sleeping disorder, or you're misinterpreting the problem the queue is meant to solve.

None of the above, but since you are so determined to have me spell it out for you, here it goes: The skill buffer is not simply a "sleep" buffer; it is a game feature that is also intended to reduce the micromanagement involved in skill training. Enlarging the buffer will further reduce micromanagement, and offer the players the peace of mind granted by not having to worry about their skill queues if an extended downtime or loss of internet access happen.

Edit: Sp.

Enord Loej
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.11.03 16:43:00 - [50]
 

From what I can tell, people can only agree on that it would encourage character farming. Yet, no one has stated what is so bad about character farming? You can't ghost train, you have to either buy PLEX or pay for their subscription. If you want to sell them, it's within the rules and still cost real money to do the character transfer.

So, what's wrong with it?

Chesty McJubblies
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.11.03 16:59:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Enord Loej
From what I can tell, people can only agree on that it would encourage character farming. Yet, no one has stated what is so bad about character farming? You can't ghost train, you have to either buy PLEX or pay for their subscription. If you want to sell them, it's within the rules and still cost real money to do the character transfer.

So, what's wrong with it?


Ask CCP. They want you logging in, it looks better.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.11.03 17:15:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Mardero
The skill buffer is not simply a "sleep" buffer; it is a game feature that is also intended to reduce the micromanagement involved in skill training.
How so?

KaarBaak
Minmatar
Seatec Astronomy
Posted - 2010.11.03 17:35:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Enord Loej
From what I can tell, people can only agree on that it would encourage character farming. Yet, no one has stated what is so bad about character farming? You can't ghost train, you have to either buy PLEX or pay for their subscription. If you want to sell them, it's within the rules and still cost real money to do the character transfer.

So, what's wrong with it?


Hopefully my argument above is not misunderstood. Personally, I see char farming as just another profession. My statement above simply explains how the OP's suggestion would make that profession much much easier.

I would liken it to giving the Noctis the option to pull all wrecks in a room to within salvager range with one click. Or allowing POSs to have fuel automatically delivered by a game mechanic.

The OP's suggestion, like so many others is a "solution looking for a problem."

KB

Mardero
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.03 17:58:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Tippia
How so?

You are invoking the "sleep" argument, while skipping the more fundamental "setting the clock" part - i.e. with no buffer, your skill queue may finish any time of the day (while you are awake, perhaps?) and you would have to log on at that exact time to update your queue (hence, my micromanagement argument). The skill buffer not only helps mitigate this kind of micromanagement, it also lets you sleep better. However, even with a 24 hour buffer, you are still required to check on your character(s) roughly once a day unless you are training long skills. A larger buffer will further reduce the micromanagement involved in skill training - i.e. you will be able to be unavailable for longer periods of time. Refer to my previous post if you are wondering why being able to be unavailable for longer periods of time is a good thing.

Anyway, I could understand if you were arguing that the damage done by increased character farming would outweigh the benefits of an extended buffer, but refuting the benefits of an extended buffer outright is ridiculous in my not so humble opinion.

Cheers.

KaarBaak
Minmatar
Seatec Astronomy
Posted - 2010.11.03 20:45:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Mardero
Originally by: Tippia
How so?

You are invoking the "sleep" argument, while skipping the more fundamental "setting the clock" part - i.e. with no buffer, your skill queue may finish any time of the day (while you are awake, perhaps?) and you would have to log on at that exact time to update your queue (hence, my micromanagement argument). The skill buffer not only helps mitigate this kind of micromanagement, it also lets you sleep better. However, even with a 24 hour buffer, you are still required to check on your character(s) roughly once a day unless you are training long skills. A larger buffer will further reduce the micromanagement involved in skill training - i.e. you will be able to be unavailable for longer periods of time. Refer to my previous post if you are wondering why being able to be unavailable for longer periods of time is a good thing.

Anyway, I could understand if you were arguing that the damage done by increased character farming would outweigh the benefits of an extended buffer, but refuting the benefits of an extended buffer outright is ridiculous in my not so humble opinion.

Cheers.


I'm still not seeing why a mechanic should be changed (again) to accommodate people (again) who are unable to figure out how to use the queue to it's proper advantage.

As far as extended DTs and internet outtages: CCP has proven that it will comp players for the former, and the latter is none of their concern/business.

If you are just setting up a 24-hour queue every day, I'd say you're doing it wrong.

The only argument in support of this change seems to be "I don't want to have to login to the game once every couple of weeks."

If I'm mistaken, what is the reason for the change?

KB

Mardero
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.03 21:47:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: KaarBaak
... Something along the lines of HTFU ...

Seriously? Yeah, no, I do not care enough to repeat myself. If you so adore being limited (in RL, and for no good reason) by game mechanics, suit yourself dear. Rolling Eyes

Takashi X2
Posted - 2010.11.03 22:26:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Mardero
Originally by: Tippia
How so?

You are invoking the "sleep" argument, while skipping the more fundamental "setting the clock" part - i.e. with no buffer, your skill queue may finish any time of the day (while you are awake, perhaps?) and you would have to log on at that exact time to update your queue (hence, my micromanagement argument). The skill buffer not only helps mitigate this kind of micromanagement, it also lets you sleep better. However, even with a 24 hour buffer, you are still required to check on your character(s) roughly once a day unless you are training long skills. A larger buffer will further reduce the micromanagement involved in skill training - i.e. you will be able to be unavailable for longer periods of time. Refer to my previous post if you are wondering why being able to be unavailable for longer periods of time is a good thing.

Anyway, I could understand if you were arguing that the damage done by increased character farming would outweigh the benefits of an extended buffer, but refuting the benefits of an extended buffer outright is ridiculous in my not so humble opinion.

Cheers.


I would say that is a fail then. The 24 hour queue is MORE then plenty. Why on the pixels known as eve would you ever not just tak on a o dear god thats gunna take forever skill to the end of your queue....

I just made an alt and i have 28 skills in queue right in queue I absolutly love it. One of the biggest problems i had with not having a skill queue was the 4-8 hour skills. They were notoriously hard to train because they didnt fit very well into a schedule if you only had 1-3 hours a day to play.

Anyway back to my point. You skill queue should have your shorties and a huge one alway put on the end which helps massivly when you dont have time every day to log on.

Imho i dont think a "Week" long or extended queue would change much because i regularly have 1+week in queue anyway. Bad players should never be a reason to change a function like this and an unlimited queue would just be wrong but i have no real personal basis for the "unlimited" comment.

garus banta
Posted - 2010.11.04 00:09:00 - [58]
 

if you pay for a month, your cue should = month
if you pay for 3 months = cue for 3 months
if you pay for a year = cue is 1 year.

if you use a free account cue is 24 hours.

Cue should be directly related to RLM, and NOT plex.

All plex bought in game with ISK is 24 hour limited cue.

Discuss.

rikstrom
Posted - 2010.11.04 06:47:00 - [59]
 

As has been previously mentioned. The problem is paying for a subscription and not receiving anything. That's certainly a reason to allow an account to lapse and not re-sub.

Having a feature that builds a training doubler will fix a lot of this. Miss a week of training, receive the next week at double training speed. Nobody loses out or gains anything unfairly etc. Still have a reason to log in so skills complete sooner. 24 hr queue can remain, people are able to have time out and keep sub going \o/


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