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PeveS
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.10.27 19:13:00 - [1]
 

[18:46:59] CCP Warlock > Is this a good time to ask about lag :)

Rolling Eyes

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2010.10.27 19:18:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: PeveS
[18:46:59] CCP Warlock > Is this a good time to ask about lag :)

Rolling Eyes


give them a ****ing break and play the game the way it is, or move on.

Stick Cult
Posted - 2010.10.27 19:20:00 - [3]
 

Let's ignore all the fixes they've done in the past 6 months to help fix lag. Yea! Rabble rabble rabble!

Also, warlock, cool dude.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.10.27 19:21:00 - [4]
 

*rams 1100 people in to a single system
*experiences lag
*whines about it as if it is unexpected

*is NC

Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2010.10.27 19:27:00 - [5]
 

I will teach them by unsubbing 149999 of my accounts!

That is right I am half of EVE, I will keep this character though!

Narisa Bithon
Caldari
The Motley Crew Reborn
Posted - 2010.10.27 20:45:00 - [6]
 

how much lag is generated by forum whiners?

graphs required

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.10.27 20:48:00 - [7]
 

The OP sounds mad. c/d?

Themanfromdalmontee
Posted - 2010.10.27 21:18:00 - [8]
 

Hi I'm random lag troll.

I've ignored the fact that there are many many dev blogs on lag fixing and can't understand why there are still problems.

Large fleet battles are laggy due to many reasons, and they are fixing them slowly but surely

Small fleet battles can be laggy due to fights else where...they are fixing them slowyl but surely.

Please go back to Dalaran where 100 people are laggy on a server of a few thousand max :)

Cat bottoms
Posted - 2010.10.27 21:27:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Cat bottoms on 27/10/2010 21:31:53
entered in error

Alyth
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.27 21:30:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: PeveS
[18:46:59] CCP Warlock > Is this a good time to ask about lag :)

Rolling Eyes


Fix lag. Ok, can you definitively give an answer on every single root cause of said lag? Not that lag matters to Morsus Mihi because node crashes are how the NC rolls :3

Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar
Posted - 2010.10.27 21:30:00 - [11]
 

This would be the ethirium reach fight. Yes I was in that on the opposing team. And there was lag but this was about as bad as the bad old days. However there was 1050 players fighting in one system as well as several smaller fights in surrounding systems. it was pretty damned large and the lag meant when i was jumping my ship out of system it got stuck..vanished then i got logged and after five attempts to relog I appear in next system in a pod. Winner.

Muul Udonii
Minmatar
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.10.27 21:44:00 - [12]
 

First time lag has seriously bothered me, but it's actually as bad as everyone has said it is. Seriously, I'm no programmer and I know I could program code that could deal with 1000 connections at once.

CCP, either actively prevent us forming the fleet the size we need to given your game mechanics, or get a better server. Just limit the population of a system to 100 people if that's all it can handle.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2010.10.27 21:56:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Muul Udonii
Hi im a 1 time forum whiner who didnt bother to read the june dev blogs about the complete server overhaul that resulted in everyone getting 100k skill points. Im also a user who has not bothered to read a lot of the fight against lag dev blogs where it isnt just 'one' piece of code that is causing the problem its the fact that there are so many factors leading to lag its just amazing.


Fixed


I know how to remove lag, based on the all the dev blogs from the past 5 months, we need to remove - Caldari and carriers, and drones from the game. no more missiles and no excessive amounts of drones means less commands needing to be processed by the server which means less lag!
Rolling Eyes




Alyth
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.27 21:56:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Muul Udonii
First time lag has seriously bothered me, but it's actually as bad as everyone has said it is. Seriously, I'm no programmer and I know I could program code that could deal with 1000 connections at once.



Sure you could, anyone can. However, can you write code that would let 1000 people with different ships, skills and fittings start locking each other, and then let said code handle on average 7000 individual guns, again all with different reload cycles, ammo inventories, hit/miss calculations and damage calculations as well as every single ship on grids positional updates. Then can you allow said code to account for the unpredicatability of players dropping locks, launching drones, being jammed, cycling modules, reloading (and therefore accessing both the ships inventory and the each guns inventory) exploading causing damage checks on every module fitted on the ship and then another two inventory updates along with populating a wreck, warping out etc?

I'm no fanboi by far but it's really frigging irritating that people say stuff like that without half a clue as to whats actually going on.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.10.27 22:01:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Muul Udonii
First time lag has seriously bothered me, but it's actually as bad as everyone has said it is. Seriously, I'm no programmer and I know I could program code that could deal with 1000 connections at once.

CCP, either actively prevent us forming the fleet the size we need to given your game mechanics, or get a better server. Just limit the population of a system to 100 people if that's all it can handle.


Oh my god, that ****'s funny man. Sure you could. Sure you could.

-Liang

Muul Udonii
Minmatar
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.10.27 22:12:00 - [16]
 

Well done failing to be funny.

Seriously, the server is one single database. The events that 'occur' within the game are just database events, interpreted by your client as graphics. If it is coded correctly, the only reason there should be lag, is if the hardware is not able to deal with the number of connections it was supposedly designed for.

To deal with drones and missiles; reduce them. It's VERY rare that people ask drones to attack more than one target; and if they defaulted to a group it would be even easier. If you REALLY wanted to split them; you could.

Same with missiles; group by default, and have a group attack strength equal the sum of the modules in the group. If people need to split them up, they can.

When you try and code the movement of every item in space and have it update constantly; you get lag when that number is larger than the hardware can handle.

Or, if it's known that the harware cannot cope; prevent anyone else jump into a system when the capacity is reached, until the software, or hardware is upgraded.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.10.27 22:13:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Muul Udonii
...


Hey, do us all a favor and go learn to be a programmer before telling programmers how things work?

-Liang

Muul Udonii
Minmatar
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.10.27 22:17:00 - [18]
 

Same to you bro, same to you.

Leil Ren'Do
Posted - 2010.10.27 22:22:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Muul Udonii
Same to you bro, same to you.


go away ******

Muul Udonii
Minmatar
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.10.27 22:23:00 - [20]
 

:)

Lurana Lay
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.27 22:24:00 - [21]
 

In before the Dev alts and fan boys who never let any criticism of CCP pass undefended no matter how viable. Oh wait...

Muul Udonii
Minmatar
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.10.27 22:31:00 - [22]
 

Well you made me laugh.

I'm usually in the Dev alt / Fanboi group saying 'suck it up', but that's because I didn't actually know how bad it got.

We had an op tonight, yes 1000 in one system; because we needed that number to put everything into reinforce in any reasonable amount of time.

I was in the reinforce fleet; 28 in system. None of us loaded. After about 10 minutes a few of us logged out and back in, still nothing. Tried again; and we were all in our pods.

From that point, the game was relatively lag free; which shows that CCP did something to the system to help; but really this should be the standard rather than something they do on special occasions.

The trouble is they had an im for an unsharded universe; and there's a very good reason why that doesn't work very well.

The solution is to use a cloud computing strategy; similar to how the internet itself works. But from a business point of view that won't happen; CCP cant afford IBM blade servers for each system. So their solutions are either a radical software fix; or fixes to limit the possibility of the detrimental player actions.

Nomistrav
Posted - 2010.10.27 22:35:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
*rams 1100 people in to a single system
*experiences lag
*whines about it as if it is unexpected

*is NC


Agree'd.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.10.27 22:35:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Muul Udonii
The solution is to use a cloud computing strategy; similar to how the internet itself works. But from a business point of view that won't happen; CCP cant afford IBM blade servers for each system. So their solutions are either a radical software fix; or fixes to limit the possibility of the detrimental player actions.


Why don't you tell us more about cloud computing? Obviously we don't know anything about how to build large distributed systems...

-Liang

Alyth
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.27 22:43:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Muul Udonii
Well done failing to be funny.

Seriously, the server is one single database. The events that 'occur' within the game are just database events, interpreted by your client as graphics. If it is coded correctly, the only reason there should be lag, is if the hardware is not able to deal with the number of connections it was supposedly designed for.

To deal with drones and missiles; reduce them. It's VERY rare that people ask drones to attack more than one target; and if they defaulted to a group it would be even easier. If you REALLY wanted to split them; you could.

Same with missiles; group by default, and have a group attack strength equal the sum of the modules in the group. If people need to split them up, they can.

When you try and code the movement of every item in space and have it update constantly; you get lag when that number is larger than the hardware can handle.

Or, if it's known that the harware cannot cope; prevent anyone else jump into a system when the capacity is reached, until the software, or hardware is upgraded.


Are you being this stupid on purpose? I fail to see how anyone could make so many sweeping claims and be wrong about absolutely all of them by accident...

Seriously the server is ever so slightly more than "one single database". Characters: one database. Inventory: one database. Current solar system: guess what. Those are just the common ones off the top of my head.

Drones: what does having multiple targets have to do with it? The do a lot more than just lock things. They tend to move and shoot too all with their inherent calculations. They also get shot AT, continously update the status of their current target etc. Being grouped wouldn't change anything because each drone is still an individual entity. Seriously, just the act of spawning the drones is a pretty heavy. Now imagine a cap fleet with carriers and SC's dropping 15-20 drones each. Then imagine them dying with thousands of the little lagbombs in their dronebays.

Same with missiles, each missile in the group would still have to have an individual damage calculation to take into account changes in the targets condition on impact.

I'll let you in on a little secret too. Positional updates have so much less of an impact than your 1000 people shooting even a single volley at each other that it's untrue. If people moving started causing unplayable levels of lag then I'd worry about the future of EVE.

Population limits are ******ed too. 1000 people in Rifters will have less of an impact than 1000 people in a mixed sniper bs fleet. Unless you can incorporate a crystal ball into every single node on the server, you aren't gonna know in advance as to what's gonna get thrown at it till the throwing occurs, meaning you need staff to watch and manage the node in real time. You gonna pay the extra overheads on that?

Muul Udonii
Minmatar
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.10.27 22:46:00 - [26]
 

Ignoring the fact you're trying to be sarcastic, Here's what Wiki says about it.

It doesn't take too big a leap to have tyhe interractions between players in a certain system happen almost entirely using the processing power of their own computers. The eve client itself is relatively low powered as far as resources and bandwidth requirements; mainly because it's essentially still the same game that was produced before broadband became so widespread. There's a lot of potential to be utilised from the users; rather than CCP investing in new hardware.

An alternative of course is to have each solar system hosted on a single server; capable of handling 2000 pilots all fighting at once.


See, the point is, that although the way the game is coded works for the majority of people the majority of the time (including me) it doesn't work for what CCP considers it's 'flagship' subscribers: the ones who participate in the MMORPG part of the game to the fullest extent and generate the media interest; and the ones that probably cost them the most to maintain.

I seriously didn't believe it was as bad as it is, until I was in fleet tonight. And I understand that things have got better over the past few months, so I feel very apologetic to the people I thought were whining about it.

Amanda Mor
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.27 22:47:00 - [27]
 

Well, I'm not a professional forum whiner, but even I can make stupid claims about how I'm not a programmer but figure I could do the job better than people who do this type of work for a living. As an added bonus, I can even throw in the current FOTM computing terms to illustrate how easy this is to fix. In addition, even tho, like I said, I'm no professional forum whiner, I know how simple it is to throw around naive "CCP only cares about money!" statements, even tho I've insulated myself from the outside world and don't actually know how things work.

See how easy it is to fix bad forum whining guys? Even I can do it!

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.10.27 22:52:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Muul Udonii
Here's what Wiki says about it.


Mmmhmmm...

Quote:
It doesn't take too big a leap to have tyhe interractions between players in a certain system happen almost entirely using the processing power of their own computers.


The server must be authoritative.

Quote:
The eve client itself is relatively low powered as far as resources and bandwidth requirements; mainly because it's essentially still the same game that was produced before broadband became so widespread.


Eve can be played over a 28.8 modem - and I've personally played it across my cell phone under 2g service. That's ****ing cool.

Quote:
There's a lot of potential to be utilised from the users; rather than CCP investing in new hardware.


Perhaps, but there aren't many ways to do it scalably and securely.

Quote:
An alternative of course is to have each solar system hosted on a single server; capable of handling 2000 pilots all fighting at once.


That's an expensive proposition you have there - especially given that most of the solar systems are empty. Also, CCP is working on methods by which they can solve the problem better than you have suggested here.

Quote:
See, the point is, that although the way the game is coded works for the majority of people the majority of the time (including me) it doesn't work for what CCP considers it's 'flagship' subscribers: the ones who participate in the MMORPG part of the game to the fullest extent and generate the media interest; and the ones that probably cost them the most to maintain.


Lag is unquestionably a real problem; but amateurs telling us all "I'm not a programmer but hell I could do a better job" is nothing short of pure arrogance... and quite frankly it's terribly stupid, insulting, and ******ed.

Quote:
I seriously didn't believe it was as bad as it is, until I was in fleet tonight. And I understand that things have got better over the past few months, so I feel very apologetic to the people I thought were whining about it.


Yeah. And now we have to listen to you.

-Liang

Luxing Weiz
Posted - 2010.10.27 22:53:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Alyth
Seriously the server is ever so slightly more than "one single database". Characters: one database. Inventory: one database. Current solar system: guess what. Those are just the common ones off the top of my head.


Those things are called 'tables'.


Originally by: Alyth
Drones: what does having multiple targets have to do with it? The do a lot more than just lock things. They tend to move and shoot too all with their inherent calculations. They also get shot AT, continously update the status of their current target etc. Being grouped wouldn't change anything because each drone is still an individual entity.


So stop them doing that. You do 100 damage to a group of drones, so one of them dies. Reducing the group damage by 1/original number. Simple maths the client can perform.

Originally by: Alyth
Same with missiles


Exactly.

Originally by: Alyth
Population limits are ******ed too. 1000 people in Rifters will have less of an impact than 1000 people in a mixed sniper bs fleet. Unless you can incorporate a crystal ball into every single node on the server, you aren't gonna know in advance as to what's gonna get thrown at it till the throwing occurs, meaning you need staff to watch and manage the node in real time. You gonna pay the extra overheads on that?


So what you do is you work out the average, and set the limit at that. We already occasionally have a timer to join the game, and recently I've been getting a 5 minute timer following an undock.

Slow down the pace at which people try to do things by preventing their client even attempting the high server resource activity.

Lots and lots of little things that can all be put together to make a more playable game for the group that CCP was supposed to be focusing on with their Dominion patch (the one that 'screwed it all up').

Alyth
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.27 22:57:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Muul Udonii
Ignoring the fact you're trying to be sarcastic, Here's what Wiki says about it.

It doesn't take too big a leap to have tyhe interractions between players in a certain system happen almost entirely using the processing power of their own computers. The eve client itself is relatively low powered as far as resources and bandwidth requirements; mainly because it's essentially still the same game that was produced before broadband became so widespread. There's a lot of potential to be utilised from the users; rather than CCP investing in new hardware.

An alternative of course is to have each solar system hosted on a single server; capable of handling 2000 pilots all fighting at once.


See, the point is, that although the way the game is coded works for the majority of people the majority of the time (including me) it doesn't work for what CCP considers it's 'flagship' subscribers: the ones who participate in the MMORPG part of the game to the fullest extent and generate the media interest; and the ones that probably cost them the most to maintain.

I seriously didn't believe it was as bad as it is, until I was in fleet tonight. And I understand that things have got better over the past few months, so I feel very apologetic to the people I thought were whining about it.


Get to the cars guys! Wiki says we're wrong! WHATEVER SHALL WE DO! Oh wait....continue to ignore anything from that little pot of 'knowledge'. You yourself say you are not a programmer, why are you arguing? You've been told you are wrong by two different people, you have had things explained to you in detail that only barely scratches the surface of something much deeper, what are you not getting?

I mean DAMN even in your first paragraph you are wrong there too. The EVE client is a dumb terminal with pretty pictures. Every transaction, every calculation, every...well everything is done by the server. The only thing your client does is relay that information back to you and then draws you a picture. Having anything done on your client opens it up to abuse; database hacks to give yourself infinite money, make your weapons oneshot everyone, make yourself invincible etc. Theres no way you can have your machine processing stuff like that. It would take a massive effing leap of changing EVE into a singleplayer game before that ever happened.

You don't know what you are talking about, please refrain from opening your mouth except to breathe, and keep your ill informed opinions to yourself.

If that was too hard to understand, here it is again. YOU ARE WRONG, FOR GOD'S SAKE SHUT THE HELL UP AND DO YOURSELF A FAVOUR AS YOU SEEM TO BE EMBARASSING YOURSELF.


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