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Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2010.10.30 21:24:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
I'm still struggling to understand how, after over 4 years since the project started, CCP still haven't decided what we're going to be able to actually do in Incarna. For the love of God, tell us you're sandbagging us. Please tell us that.

I mean guys, come on - you're supposed to be releasing this thing in the next 8 months, you've had 70 devs working on it for god knows how long, and at least some working on it for much longer than that, you had a semi-working Demo in 2008, and you STILL haven't even got to the point where you've decided what's going to happen?

What? The? Hell?



I think you need to get used to the idea that it's not going to have any actual gameplay features.

OK, maybe one. Torfi said "It's definitely going to be more than walking around, maybe gambling." So when the agile development gets bloody and they start cutting "user stories" out with a bloody axe, they have to leave at least one thing in. So you'll be able to walk around in stations, and maybe use a roulette wheel.

But note the bit about how "The implementation as it is now allows you to exit your ship in every station and go to your captain‟s quarters; it is just the large communal areas that might not be available on all stations." For the first release, "walking around in stations" may not even be in there; all they have now is going to your bedroom. "Large communal areas" might turn out to be one of those "user stories" that doesn't make the cut.

And thus did "walking around in stations" get agilely scrummed into "playing roulette with yourself in a bedroom". No, that hasn't happened yet. But the potential is there.

They said it over and over again. "Nothing has been decided." They don't have any plans. They haven't built much yet. They don't have any actual vision for how this avatar tech should be used to make a better spaceship game. There isn't any sandbagged coolness.

There's a ton of cool stuff they could have been building all these years, but the .pdf makes it brutally clear: they haven't actually been building any of it. They haven't, apparently, even drawn up much of a wish list. And on the schedule they're on, it's too bloody late now.

You can hold your breath for later iterations if you want, but I'm not gonna.

ChriZzZz
Posted - 2010.10.31 22:50:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Don Pellegrino
Quote:
I really don't find CCP's claim that microtransactions aren't about the money to be credible. Uh yeah, we're trying to be on the cutting edge of... new ways to get your money? It kind of insults the intelligence.


this.

You want to be edgy and follow the wave, but WHY? WHY would you want to introduce microtransactions AT ALL if it's not to squeeze more money out of the players?



STOP MICROTRANSACTIONSExclamation
WE DONT WANT THEMExclamation


Dacil Arandur
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.11.01 16:15:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Vincent Athena
Originally by: CCP Explorer
The technical reason for not doing this is that the stations and the interior of the stations will not be on the same node as the solarsystem itself (the space). This information would therefore have to be fed from the solarsystem node to the station node and constant cross-node communication is something we avoid.
This can be done without cross node comms. Just send info from 2 nodes to the client. You already do that. For example if I'm mining and doing market orders my client is getting info from the space node and from the market node.
But then the client is connected to the location node as well and a part of what we are planning is to reduce the load on it by separating stations from the solar system itself. This would not accomplish that.


With respect, at what point do you sacrifice things that really SHOULD be there from every RP and logical standpoint for the sake of performance? If the goal is to have the best Science Fiction simulation around, you're going to have to deal with these issues eventually. If concerns about performance are gigantic roadblocks to what should be in a properly designed game, you'll have to either rework your vision or seriously work on your core infrastructure.

Forcing player behaviour change, or cutting good game design because your server infrastructure can't handle it will not end well in the long run.


As a side note/suggestion: What about a compromise? Have the ability to look outside of a station normally, but if local jumps above a certain number or if the grid around a station is too full have the station "lockdown" for security reasons. Maybe shields come down over the windows or some sort of electronic protection which are necessary to protect residents from accidental weapon discharge, but also unfortunately stop them from being able to see outside.

That way when there are too many pilots outside a station and it would cause a performance hit to move all that data of all those ships, you can cut the connection with a plausible in-game reason. But also allow me to see if I am being station camped in a random backwater system with 5 pilots.

Thanks,
Dacil

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2010.11.01 17:40:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Dacil Arandur


As a side note/suggestion: What about a compromise? Have the ability to look outside of a station normally, but if local jumps above a certain number or if the grid around a station is too full have the station "lockdown" for security reasons. Maybe shields come down over the windows or some sort of electronic protection which are necessary to protect residents from accidental weapon discharge, but also unfortunately stop them from being able to see outside.

That way when there are too many pilots outside a station and it would cause a performance hit to move all that data of all those ships, you can cut the connection with a plausible in-game reason. But also allow me to see if I am being station camped in a random backwater system with 5 pilots.

Thanks,
Dacil


Good idea, except there are several solar systems on one node, so high activity in a completely different solar system could result in window closure in your system, even if there are only 5 pilots in it.

I see CCP's point: They got to be able to handle the case of everyone docked in Jita deciding to look out the windows and not lagging out those trying to fly and fight.

But there has to be some way to let us RPers see out windows, something like the "Jita cam" that let many people see a real time space scene that were not even logged into EVE.

Also: Ive heard that CCP is planning to end docking games by:

1) allowing scrams to block docking, balanced by
2) allowing you to see whats outside the station before you undock.

I assume you must be in your ship ( and hence not on the "in station" server) before you can pop a camera drone outside and look around.


Dacil Arandur
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.11.01 18:04:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Vincent Athena
Originally by: Dacil Arandur


As a side note/suggestion: What about a compromise? Have the ability to look outside of a station normally, but if local jumps above a certain number or if the grid around a station is too full have the station "lockdown" for security reasons. Maybe shields come down over the windows or some sort of electronic protection which are necessary to protect residents from accidental weapon discharge, but also unfortunately stop them from being able to see outside.

That way when there are too many pilots outside a station and it would cause a performance hit to move all that data of all those ships, you can cut the connection with a plausible in-game reason. But also allow me to see if I am being station camped in a random backwater system with 5 pilots.

Thanks,
Dacil


Good idea, except there are several solar systems on one node, so high activity in a completely different solar system could result in window closure in your system, even if there are only 5 pilots in it.

I see CCP's point: They got to be able to handle the case of everyone docked in Jita deciding to look out the windows and not lagging out those trying to fly and fight.

But there has to be some way to let us RPers see out windows, something like the "Jita cam" that let many people see a real time space scene that were not even logged into EVE.

Also: Ive heard that CCP is planning to end docking games by:

1) allowing scrams to block docking, balanced by
2) allowing you to see whats outside the station before you undock.

I assume you must be in your ship ( and hence not on the "in station" server) before you can pop a camera drone outside and look around.




I understand the technical limitation of having several solar systems on one node like that, but my overall point is that these technical hurdles need to be overcome or all the design decisions will revolve around the server's CPU instead of being based on what should actually be in an awesome sci-fi game.

However, I'm perfectly ok with changes that have a plausible in-game reasoning, and honestly they aren't hard to come up with.

For example, to deal with the Drake blob problem and also encourage smaller fleets in general... how about there is electrical interference from too many shields all together on the same grid and so as a side effect all their shield resistances are lowered.

You could do a similar thing with armour. Too much armour on the field and you have too many gravity wells which drop the agility of all ships.


Anyway, I just hope that performance issues don't become the sole reason behind game design decisions, because that will make for a lag-free but boring and stupid game.

Thanks again,
Dacil

Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury
Posted - 2010.11.02 13:18:00 - [156]
 

Edited by: Joss56 on 02/11/2010 13:23:02
Well i would like to see my blaster becomme usefull over 10km, dont ask rails range but at least samme than pulses?Confused

No? -k Mad

*overloading 425 and tracking modules* Twisted Evil

/Run

pmchem
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.11.02 17:24:00 - [157]
 

A lot of talk about PLEX for remaps.

How about PLEX for character transfers between accounts? I think everyone would be in favor of that.

Zen Sarum
Posted - 2010.11.03 22:06:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Marlenus
Originally by: Malcanis
I mean guys, come on - you're supposed to be releasing this thing in the next 8 months, you've had 70 devs working on it for god knows how long, and at least some working on it for much longer than that, you had a semi-working Demo in 2008, and you STILL haven't even got to the point where you've decided what's going to happen?

What? The? Hell?



I think you need to get used to the idea that it's not going to have any actual gameplay features.

OK, maybe one. Torfi said "It's definitely going to be more than walking around, maybe gambling." So when the agile development gets bloody and they start cutting "user stories" out with a bloody axe, they have to leave at least one thing in. So you'll be able to walk around in stations, and maybe use a roulette wheel.

And thus did "walking around in stations" get agilely scrummed into "playing roulette with yourself in a bedroom". No, that hasn't happened yet. But the potential is there.

They said it over and over again. "Nothing has been decided." They don't have any plans. They haven't built much yet. They don't have any actual vision for how this avatar tech should be used to make a better spaceship game. There isn't any sandbagged coolness.

There's a ton of cool stuff they could have been building all these years, but the .pdf makes it brutally clear: they haven't actually been building any of it. They haven't, apparently, even drawn up much of a wish list. And on the schedule they're on, it's too bloody late now.

You can hold your breath for later iterations if you want, but I'm not gonna.


I agree if this is the case I am very disappointed. With the number of balancing issues not addressed the pretty terrible PI which acheives nothing and worst of all the completely unimaginative and poor sov system introduced under dominion I had expected somewhat more from something that had taken so long and had so many resources used up by it. Resources basicly taken from us to make features that in the end we won't use but will look pretty on the box.

Its the lack of game development or imagination that is shocking on the last few 'expansions'. These should add to the game not add diversions and dilute the game with awfully designed features. In my mind the expansions should have built one on the other, such as:

Dominion. Introduced a new sov system based on activity on a regular smaller scale with many transactions which effects surrounding influance and hence the sov of a system (not my blob just sat there for hours shooting your thing which isnt a string of POS's but is now possibly worse! Nothing else happens as noone will jump into 500+ hot system!).

Tyranis. Allows direct control and interaction with the people of each planet adding to trade aspects of the game as well as having an affect on influance and hence affecting sov.

Incarna. Supports more interaction between players and NPCs aiding in the storytelling of EVE. Also adds another dimensions into the game overtime with additional storyline missions and events only accessable through walking in stations if you choose to take part as well as giving helpfull features and tools for planetry/station interaction and trade aspects. Also adds additional vanity features to the game with personal/corp/alliance facilities upgrades to public areas available thru plex.

Dust adds/interacts to all of the interaction features above if somewhat indirectly.

Job done, or in this case not, its a shame as it could have been so good to have all those layers built on top of each other, making EVE utterly unique, wasted opertunities IMO.

menacemyth
Minmatar
Onyx Brotherhood
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2010.11.04 20:39:00 - [159]
 

I read the entire pdf. Well worth the read.

All I can say is "I love this CSM" I'll re-elect all of them.

Also, thank you CCP. I respect your approach to a concerned CSM. I hope you continue to provide hard answers to tough questions. Any individual failure is still a success for the team if you continue this approach to problem solving, and is well worth my money. M

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.11.04 21:27:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Malcanis
I was intensely interested to see that CCP believe there is too much ISK in EVE.


The number of supercaps hot dropping subcaps for lulz seems to support their point.


That's a product of resource abundance, not ISK abundance.

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2010.11.05 18:34:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: MotherMoon
[
Originally by: CCP Explorer
The technical reason for not doing this is that the stations and the interior of the stations will not be on the same node as the solarsystem itself (the space). This information would therefore have to be fed from the solarsystem node to the station node and constant cross-node communication is something we avoid.
That doesn't at all explain why you don't just have windows that show a skybox.

my eve online ships have windows on them but I complain that I can't zoom in and see inside them. Windows have a place in sci-fi, why do you think they have to be functional to be in the game?

Then again I have a feeling the lead artist already had this argument with you :P
Windows with a skybox is the slippery slope, next expansion everyone wants to see what's outside.

This is a somewhat silly answer. Players had always wanted to see what's outside the station while in dock, but only in the same way that the overview lets us see what's outside our ship. The station 'window with a view' in Incarna would serve a completely different purpose that is psychological and aesthetic in nature. The two are not related and there is no "slippery slope" argument relationship between them.

Zantris
Posted - 2010.11.07 01:46:00 - [162]
 

Edited by: Zantris on 07/11/2010 01:50:57
It makes absolutely no sense to use PLEX for Neural Remappers. PLEX already have an ISK value, so if you charge ISK for Neural Remappers, you ultimately accomplish the same thing. And in addition, you add a sink.

The only reason to use PLEX as the direct currency is to increase the volume of PLEX bought, which is decidedly "for profit" regardless of how much you pretend otherwise.

Please don't insult our intelligence by saying something isn't "for profit" when it very obviously is.

And even using ISK, Neural Remaps are a bad idea unless they have time constraints. Otherwise excessively wealthy individuals will abuse the hell out of them.

Zlukina
Posted - 2010.11.07 09:07:00 - [163]
 

if CCP adds more microtransactions in future there will be a lot of players who ll quit game for many reasons cause of mt. CCP dont have enough money from subscribers and plex/gtc buyers? Evil or Very Mad

BIZZAROSTORMY
Posted - 2010.11.08 15:35:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
I'm still struggling to understand how, after over 4 years since the project started, CCP still haven't decided what we're going to be able to actually do in Incarna. For the love of God, tell us you're sandbagging us. Please tell us that.

I mean guys, come on - you're supposed to be releasing this thing in the next 8 months, you've had 70 devs working on it for god knows how long, and at least some working on it for much longer than that, you had a semi-working Demo in 2008, and you STILL haven't even got to the point where you've decided what's going to happen?

What? The? Hell?




Yeah. I started thread about this in general Discussion - devolved into argument about semantics. But the question still stands: Why havent you decided on any of the functionality? all these years, all this work? and you ask the CSm what they want to see?

That suggests its all up for grabs still - that you dont know what you are doing with Incarna - even at this late stage!

Could CCp please clarify: Has anything been decided on functionality for Incarna as a whole?. Is summer release really still on?

If CCP really wish to solicit ideas for Incarna from CSM why not have a player vote?

Zyress
Posted - 2010.11.08 16:39:00 - [165]
 

As far as microtransactions go, as long as the purchases have no ingame performance benefits I don't see it any differently than selling tee-shirts, if they want a custom paint job on their rifter and are willing to pay ccp for it , thats between them and ccp, I expect if they go this route special clothing for the out of pod experience would be another thing they could sell to ppl that care about that without conveying any ingame benefit. Personally I could care less if I walk through the station naked dripping acceleration gell, but I've seen how the sims crowd likes to dress up their avatars.

Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2010.11.09 20:17:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: No Pyramid Quoting Allowed
Stuff
Windows with a skybox is the slippery slope, next expansion everyone wants to see what's outside.
And what exactly is wrong with that? Why not strive to delight and surprise your current and potential customers? Why not attempt the extra-ordinary? Why not build your sci-fi simulator to reflect what every space-based sci-fi film, animation and published piece features to one extent or another?

If CCP is truly committed to ambulation, then dare to dream of a space sci-fi simulator where people collectively witness events in-space while standing in a station. Or even a large spaceship filled with tourism-minded clones that paid their ship's captain to view a combat competition or a hidden and beautiful spacial anomaly.

Demitrios
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2010.11.11 23:17:00 - [167]
 

Bull****

OH NOES! I CANT SAY BULL**** ON HERE! BUT IT CAN BE ON A DEVBLOG!

Oh the humanity, will someone think of the children!

/sarcasm :)

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.11.12 11:24:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Hakaru Ishiwara
And what exactly is wrong with that? Why not strive to delight and surprise your current and potential customers? [..snip..]


I'm sure that, if it is possible, CCP will eventually want to do it (I'm sure it would look cool in Incarna). However, do you want the engineering department to spend all their time making new infrastructure so you can see ships through windows, or would you prefer them to spend that time fixing lag/making eve gameplay?

Its a question of priorities and because 'windows in space' is a very difficult technical endeavour with very low gameplay impact, it's understandably low on the list.

Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2010.11.12 18:17:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Originally by: Hakaru Ishiwara
And what exactly is wrong with that? Why not strive to delight and surprise your current and potential customers? [..snip..]


I'm sure that, if it is possible, CCP will eventually want to do it (I'm sure it would look cool in Incarna). However, do you want the engineering department to spend all their time making new infrastructure so you can see ships through windows, or would you prefer them to spend that time fixing lag/making eve gameplay?

Its a question of priorities and because 'windows in space' is a very difficult technical endeavour with very low gameplay impact, it's understandably low on the list.
I am with you 100% in determining priorities. Where I took issue is with a CCP representative going down the path of [paraphrased] 'the methods are too difficult' to implement this feature.

Rather, I believe that it is fair to say that a particular feature is either very challenging or not feasible to implement in the current version and with the current server architecture. BUT that feature may be considered when server hardware improvements are planned, etc. in the future.

tl;dr - I want to hear a truthful, but can-do message out of CCP.

Also, some folks brought up the non-live window box idea that I do not believe was understood by CCP. In other words, have station windows display "stuff" like a star-field but not necessarily stuff that reflects events occurring 'outside' in space.

Bhattran
Posted - 2010.11.13 11:52:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Originally by: Hakaru Ishiwara
And what exactly is wrong with that? Why not strive to delight and surprise your current and potential customers? [..snip..]


I'm sure that, if it is possible, CCP will eventually want to do it (I'm sure it would look cool in Incarna). However, do you want the engineering department to spend all their time making new infrastructure so you can see ships through windows, or would you prefer them to spend that time fixing lag/making eve gameplay?

Its a question of priorities and because 'windows in space' is a very difficult technical endeavour with very low gameplay impact, it's understandably low on the list.


I get your point but I feel you are mistaken in expressing it. The engineering team who are tasked with making Incarna/WIS/ambulation are of course who will work on stuff related to Incarna/WIS/Ambulation not the engineers working on lag/making EVE 'internet spaceships' gameplay, these are two different groups of engineers/developers. At some point they may and likely will swap team members or create new teams but people working on A don't stop working on A to work on B just because B decided to work on a new aspect of B.

To your point, could the people working on Incarna/WIS/Ambulation be working on other aspects of it instead of the window yeah of course they can, there might be more pressing aspects of gameplay, whatever the **** they are because we haven't gotten a clear message on what we'll be doing besides gambling/socializing *IF those haven't been tossed out.

There will be a 'link' between internet spaceships and being in a station when you transition and I'd hope other ways to make them interact but the responses from CCP in this thread make it seem like Incarna/WIS/Ambulation and EVE won't talk to each other or pass data or doing so is so technically horrible they won't do it. I can't see why a couple of views outside of the stations can't exist and be accessed by players when they approach a 'window' on the observation deck or through a terminal. They'd all see the same thing and it would be limited to the grid and could even be gimped to not show any overview data just a pure video feed, what you'd see with your UI turned off when in your ship in space.

To further explore my amazement at how internet spaceships and being in a station can't be linked for a video feed, I now wonder will we be able to do things I assumed we would have access to like; using the market, contracts, accessing assets, some method to communicate outside the station like a 'chat', email, etc? My idea was either we'd have a personal device like a commlink/comuter/data pad allowing access to some or all of those things OR we'd interface with them through terminals in public/private. The portable method seems to be more convenient as you wouldn't have people hogging public terminals but who knows what choices would be made if such a thing is put in the game.



Crexa
Star Mandate
Posted - 2010.11.18 05:51:00 - [171]
 

I'm saying NO! To Micro-transactions. Plex was a thin line as it was.

If they are ever implemented in EVE, I will be cancelling my 5 accounts and finding something else to do. Thats 5 accounts that pay yearly subs. Its not a threat, its a promiseExclamation

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2010.11.18 06:25:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
But then the client is connected to the location node as well and a part of what we are planning is to reduce the load on it by separating stations from the solar system itself. This would not accomplish that.


I don't understand this.

First: the looks to the outside through a window is for EVERYONE the same, so you only need to add ONE listener to the node from where you send it to everyone else and this distribution can be done on a different node.

Second: If there are no players outside the station, the added load from one more listener shouldn't be a problem. If you have at least one player out there, you already had to query the grid for data, so you can just reuse this data without another query for the database I guess, even lowering the load on the node more - if one single more listener is really such a burden.


So, I don't know where the technical problem is, the cross-node communication would be for one single listener per station at maximum, if at all. What have I missed?

And to reduce load on the location node further, you could just get snapshots of the outsides from location node every few seconds and then calculate the scenes in between from the incarna node or the client. And in case of some heavy load you would add just static to the window screen Surprised


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