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blankseplocked Black ops - there were talks of further updates to this ship class...
 
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Brian Ballsack
Posted - 2010.11.16 16:54:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Brian Ballsack on 16/11/2010 16:56:54

Posting to confirm that Soldarius sucks, what the hell someones killboard stats have to do with someones opinion i dont know, plus you dont know the names of all his chars anyway.
You can tell this guy is from wow, gat back to lolesports please and take your twisted logic with you.

Petra Katell
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2010.11.16 17:29:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Exopolitics
My ideas for the Sin are to make it a drone hit&run ship:

Remove boosts to guns

Add speed/MWD boost to drones.
Improve RoF, Decrease actual damage of drones (Keeping the actual DpS the same)

This would enable the Sin to jump in, do some sort of blitzkrieg with his drones, and jump out quickly because the drones'll be fast enough to get back in.


Most people don't seem to understand this is why it has an agility bonus, as it can't align to GTFO while doing damage like the other BOP's. You use sentries in a Sin, not heavies.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.11.16 17:50:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Petra Katell
Originally by: Exopolitics
My ideas for the Sin are to make it a drone hit&run ship:

Remove boosts to guns

Add speed/MWD boost to drones.
Improve RoF, Decrease actual damage of drones (Keeping the actual DpS the same)

This would enable the Sin to jump in, do some sort of blitzkrieg with his drones, and jump out quickly because the drones'll be fast enough to get back in.


Most people don't seem to understand this is why it has an agility bonus, as it can't align to GTFO while doing damage like the other BOP's. You use sentries in a Sin, not heavies.
even with the agility bonus it still behaves like a brick in molass.

Mmm Insane
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.16 18:44:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: TgrFox5
I think they should just be bigger recon that can bridge people around. So the bonuses should be in line with their race, gallente damps, amarr, enery neut, minmatar webs, caldari jams, ect...
nah. too many roles for a T2 ship.

BO's should be first and foremost forced insertion tools.


I fail to see the connection between butt plugs and eve.

Having flown 3 races of bo and speaking in relative terms the sin sucks, the panther sucks slightly less
and the redeemer rocks, the gaydari one i know nothing of.

Jump range and fuel required would be sufficent tweaks, give them the cloak and 9/10 of eve you would never see until
they inserted the pointy end of their ship in your nethers.

Baudolino
Gallente
Royal Crimson Lancers
Posted - 2010.11.17 13:27:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Soldarius
Originally by: Lady Skank
Originally by: Soldarius


Quick scan of your kill stats proves this to be false on both fronts. No kills, and no losses with Black Ops. Not to say you've never flown one. But your stats don't support it.



Neither do yours so what makes your opinion any more valid or give you any justification for telling people to get a clue?


2/10. Obvious troll. Extra credit given for actually looking at a kb. Your stats according to BC, 0 kills 5 losses. Your hypocricy knows no bounds. Post with main or gtfo. btw, JDO 5 in 6 days and some hours. I would say see you around. But if that were true, I wouldn't be doing my job right.



I have used Black Ops for a very long time. The killmails are there for anyone to find. The times i have ransomed someone or failed in my attempts are for apparant reasons not registered. Soldarius is obviously talking out of his ass.

I find the BOs to be decent tactical tools, but very brittle ones.

In regards to their future development i see three lines of approach. I`ll start with the least interesting one..

1. Make it a logistics ship focused on portals and moving gangs around
2. Apply tech II resists + Battleship stats, thus streamlining them and making them just another of the many standard ships we
albeit one with a fun ability in it`s jumping (and double the jump range).
3. Keep it`s current brittle stats and configuration, but give it some unique abilities and bonuses that go along.
ArrowMy initial post regarding ECM burst bonus, cap neutralization etc are all focused on this.
ArrowMicro-Jumping: Using a ping modules to locate targets over a short distance and allow short range precision jumps
within the same system (100km on lvl 1 - 10.000km on lvl 5)
ArrowRemove cloak penalties but keep other stats and bonuses
ArrowDouble jump range (i mean- it`s supposed to be a penetration vessel)
ArrowAllow jumping into deadspace (also allow- micro-jumping in wormhole space)

These and possibly other unique combinations of bonuses would make them powerfull tools if used correctly, but their brittle hulls would heavily penalize the careless

I want to reiterate that my initial suggestion for unique but race-based bonuses were given such a high cycle time (4 minutes) and cap cost, that they would only ever be used ONCE in a single engagement. This ensures they are not overpowered. The fact they also negatively effect friendly ships further underscores that they are supposed to be a unique tactical tool- if used correctly. If used poorly they will likely be detrimental to ones own gang.

The Black ops concept is in a position to bring something unique (if given the right bonuses and mechanics) to eve- i want to see this further developed.

Currently the BOs are fun to use- but a large portion of this "fun" is found in the mere fact that fighting with such an expensive and brittle ship is so scary.. That`s not really a good enough reason to fly one which the statistics seem to agree with.

Leando
Posted - 2010.11.24 14:16:00 - [96]
 

Quote:


I have used Black Ops for a very long time. The killmails are there for anyone to find. The times i have ransomed someone or failed in my attempts are for apparant reasons not registered. Soldarius is obviously talking out of his ass.

I find the BOs to be decent tactical tools, but very brittle ones.

In regards to their future development i see three lines of approach. I`ll start with the least interesting one..

1. Make it a logistics ship focused on portals and moving gangs around
2. Apply tech II resists + Battleship stats, thus streamlining them and making them just another of the many standard ships we
albeit one with a fun ability in it`s jumping (and double the jump range).
3. Keep it`s current brittle stats and configuration, but give it some unique abilities and bonuses that go along.
My initial post regarding ECM burst bonus, cap neutralization etc are all focused on this.
Micro-Jumping: Using a ping modules to locate targets over a short distance and allow short range precision jumps
within the same system (100km on lvl 1 - 10.000km on lvl 5)
Remove cloak penalties but keep other stats and bonuses
Double jump range (i mean- it`s supposed to be a penetration vessel)
Allow jumping into deadspace (also allow- micro-jumping in wormhole space)

These and possibly other unique combinations of bonuses would make them powerfull tools if used correctly, but their brittle hulls would heavily penalize the careless

I want to reiterate that my initial suggestion for unique but race-based bonuses were given such a high cycle time (4 minutes) and cap cost, that they would only ever be used ONCE in a single engagement. This ensures they are not overpowered. The fact they also negatively effect friendly ships further underscores that they are supposed to be a unique tactical tool- if used correctly. If used poorly they will likely be detrimental to ones own gang.

The Black ops concept is in a position to bring something unique (if given the right bonuses and mechanics) to eve- i want to see this further developed.

Currently the BOs are fun to use- but a large portion of this "fun" is found in the mere fact that fighting with such an expensive and brittle ship is so scary.. That`s not really a good enough reason to fly one which the statistics seem to agree with.




Some really good ideas....lets keep this thread going.......yoou never know CCP might actually read it !

Slade Hoo
Amarr
Retired Gunslingers
Posted - 2010.11.24 14:22:00 - [97]
 

Don't forget to vote in the CSM-Forum for black ops changes.

Olivia Bolivia
Posted - 2010.11.24 19:12:00 - [98]
 

CSM-Forum ?????

Whats that ??

Ahz
Posted - 2010.11.24 21:22:00 - [99]
 

We've been coming back to this question for two years now.

Maybe the real problem is role clarity.

What if there were two of them? Like Recons?

Combat Logistics Battleship: Operates as tip of the spear in fleet engagements
- Cloakless
- Jumps into cyno-jammed systems
- Real tech II resists
- Brawler gunnery bonuses
- Fits regular cyno but not cov ops cyno

Black Ops: Operates as currently with a small boost
- Reduction in speed and locking penalties
- Increased jump range to cov ops cyno
- Logistics / warfare link bonuses
- Fits regular and cov ops cyno

Dannerkongen
Posted - 2010.11.24 21:33:00 - [100]
 

BO's are ccp's stillborn children

Progmas
Posted - 2011.01.06 17:34:00 - [101]
 

My own personal view on black ops is that they should be more specialized and not in anyway really combat capable. Why, lets face it. A stealth gang picks there fights and NONE of the cov ops ships are combat capable. Even the stealth bomber while having an awesome punch will disintegrate if looked at wrong. Keeping the tank sub par on a black ops is in line with the feel of this class of ship and should remain so. As for cov ops cloak, sure wouldn't mind having one on it but really its not going to add much if anything to the ship as if your using it right your gonna be jumping on top of the target anyway. Where I see room for major improvement is in its core ability of the covert jump portal. It needs more range less fuel to really shine otherwise it comes to a point where its just easier to gate travel in your cov ops fleet then jump them into a system. Other ideas I like is having it be able to lock onto a star OR a covert cyno. Really is a star that much harder to lock onto then a cyno field? Let it plop you down random spot in system like 10 au from the star. The drawback to this is that jumping to a star means each person who jumps is in a separate location creating a time delay to organize for a group warp in or risk poorly timed warp ins to the target. I also like the idea of jumping into ded space. We can jump into a jammed system why not a ded space pocket. Those tweaks wouldn't really overpower the ship as an alert opponent can counter it while increasing its tactical usage in a fleet setting and would make sense from a flavor stand point. Hopefully CCP will look into this a bit for next expansion since they seem to be tweaking a bunch of stuff lately.

Millsy1
Posted - 2011.01.07 03:32:00 - [102]
 

you know, as much as I fly a Black ops, and I really really really want longer range and less fuel usage.

Anything else is probably just going to be overpowered. why?

because of this guy, and what he does with his Panther with the way it is now.

Linkage
Would be more useful if you could sort by ship on the killmail (killers side that is) but go take a look. He freakin hot-drops everything and anything. Myself, I would never even attempt a Scorpion. How much more could he do with extra DPS or more tank?

I swear to god, they said the Panther has the highest Kill/Death ratio in the game, he's doing like 20% all by himself.

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2011.01.07 13:09:00 - [103]
 

Edited by: TimMc on 07/01/2011 13:17:44
Edited by: TimMc on 07/01/2011 13:17:19
Edited by: TimMc on 07/01/2011 13:14:48
Using Improved Cloak isn't great, but its fine. You shouldn't be solo'ing in a battleship, let alone a black ops.

But fitting a covert ops cloak isn't the end of the world either. The align time on these things is slow enough that any self respecting interceptor or hac could burn and decloak it before it warped out.

I believe their primary role should be the jump bridge, of which it is far too short. Should be doubled, or tripled.

Their secondary function should be to provide support in battle, not as a DPS (although may be supplemental) but either gang links or as secondary ewar (sensor damps, target painters, ecm with no strength bonus only range, and tracking disruptors).

I see the black ops decloaking at 50-70km while the rest of the gang is orbiting 20-40km. Gallente gang links are all for ewar ships, so would be a great boon to the sin.

Edit: for example

[Sin, theorycraft]
True Sansha Large Armor Repairer
Damage Control II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane

100MN MicroWarpdrive II
Shadow Serpentis Remote Sensor Dampener, Targeting Range Dampening
Shadow Serpentis Remote Sensor Dampener, Targeting Range Dampening
Shadow Serpentis Remote Sensor Dampener, Targeting Range Dampening
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Dual 250mm Railgun II, Spike L
Dual 250mm Railgun II, Spike L
Dual 250mm Railgun II, Spike L
Dual 250mm Railgun II, Spike L
Information Warfare Link - Electronic Superiority
Information Warfare Link - Recon Operation
Covert Jump Portal Generator I
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Large Sentry Damage Augmentor I
Large Particle Dispersion Projector I


Warden II x5


Have a limit of 2 gang links maybe, but have the 3% bonus similar to commandships. Add a high so can fit 4 guns in addition to other stuff.

Aaron Greil
Posted - 2011.01.09 01:00:00 - [104]
 

I'm a BO pilot. I love me my Redeemer, but there is a serious problem with the BO. When it is in warp and seen on scan, everyone and their brother starts probing, and calling in their biggest hardware to attack it. I think the CovOps cloak would help protect it in those vulnerable moments docking, jumping into highsec, or even just warping. The BO's stealth is supposed to be its strength, but I've had... let me think... 2 billion worth of ships hunting me for no other reason than a passing cruiser saw me on scan in while I was in warp. A BO pilot is impossible to catch if he doesn't want to be, but one tiny slip up and a persistent pilot can ruin you, much more so than other ships.

I have a few suggestions that might work, just ideas. Firstly, give them a way to avoid showing up on scan while in warp. Maybe a BO exclusive mod, maybe a covops cloak. Secondly, give them a jump range per level or a fuel/bridge conservation per level bonus. Finally, each race has a secondary weapons system that tech 2 ships generally use. For example, a curse and sac use missiles, so make the redeemer a torp boat. With this logic, keep the Sin based on drones, make the panther an auto/missile split like the typhoon, and the widow a hybrid boat. The idea is that they take longer training time to fully develop. I know that the ships are already absurdly skill intensive, but it would mean that a pilot in a BO was dedicated, and more than likely, still training it to its full potential. Ewar is also a good idea, but who doesn't like a cloaky slugger? (other than balance issues).

kyrv
Posted - 2011.01.10 12:56:00 - [105]
 

it would amaise me to have a traditional setup for the former hulls this would be elite, as it stands a crimp of the former setup the bonuses do have some gratification i'd like to see them challenge a sanctum or two like a maelstrom and have the ability to use those jump portals.

What if they can be upgraded (with rigs) to form wormholes to a destination whilst in conjunction with an ihub? or a chance based ability costing time or resources to make that happen.

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.01.10 13:11:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Clone 565
BO's are sexy, I need a reason to buy one, OP's "bonus" ideas would not make me buy one


Join Vivicide and you can use BO's in our supa dupa elite drunk gangs.

frsd
Caldari
No.Mercy
Merciless.
Posted - 2011.01.10 14:02:00 - [107]
 

The Widow bonus is abit FUBAR tbh.

A 500m ship with medslots as tank and then it needs to sacrifice some of those for its ship bonus? ( 4 since you want to use 1 racial each or none ).

The other BO's dont need to sacrifice tank for tackle or their bonus's.

RRNL
Caldari
Posted - 2011.01.10 14:06:00 - [108]
 


Asurix
Caldari
StoneDogS
Posted - 2011.01.10 14:48:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Naomi Knight
Imho the matar one should be the worst one significantly.
It is a bs class + high tech ship where matars should have a drawback.
Best should be the caldari by far then gall.


6/10 for attempting an RP troll

CrazyTaco
Posted - 2011.01.10 15:05:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: frsd
The Widow bonus is abit FUBAR tbh.

A 500m ship with medslots as tank and then it needs to sacrifice some of those for its ship bonus? ( 4 since you want to use 1 racial each or none ).

The other BO's dont need to sacrifice tank for tackle or their bonus's.


troll or look at the scorpion

to continue in this fashion,

BO's should have 15 ly range inbonused on both normal jump and the bridge, with 20% increase per lvl and not requiring a cyno on the other end but a star where you will be brought to a map of the system and can indicate where you want to land, for the cost of 50 isotopes per 5,000,000,000kg

Also t2 resists + 5% resist bonus per lvl should be applied and hp should be upgraded to tier3 levels. Fuel bay should be 25k, redeemer sin and panther need 8 hi 6med and 8low and they should get 3 rig slots aswell

on a more serious note cant BO's already jump through cyno jammers?

Khyara
Posted - 2011.01.10 16:20:00 - [111]
 

Edited by: Khyara on 10/01/2011 16:20:27
Kill two birds with one stone.

Easy fixes.

-Leadership skills + Gang Links to modify the jump range, and fuel consumption of the BO's, and speed/agility (I know Minmatar leadership skills address some of this already, but a +agility +speed while cloaked would help more) of operating a BO while cloaked.
-BO hulls should at the very least be on par stat-wise with Tech 1 BS hulls. To not have that makes them laughable.

What does this do?
Forces gang co-operation by having leadership type skills in the group prior to setting out, and also gives the BO's a bit more resilliance when operating in combat.

This also prevents the solo pwn mobile.



Bibosikus
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.10 23:42:00 - [112]
 

Just dump Black Ops altogether and re-invent them when T3 Battleships eventually come on the scene.

New subsystems could cope with all this stuff and more.

Long way away though :)

Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
Posted - 2011.01.11 00:17:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: frsd
The Widow bonus is abit FUBAR tbh.

A 500m ship with medslots as tank and then it needs to sacrifice some of those for its ship bonus? ( 4 since you want to use 1 racial each or none ).


It also loses the range bonus to ECM Burst, making the standard Scorpion the only boat with this bonus. Arguably, the Widow should get an even better bonus to ECM Burst than the Scorp does. Like 50km. Twisted Evil

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.11 01:03:00 - [114]
 

I'd like to see Black Ops be Black Ops. yes, this means warping while cloaked.. Perhaps with a Black Ops specific version of the covert ops cloak.

More fuel would be welcome. As for making the Black Ops a skimisher, I'm not fond of the idea..

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.01.11 01:28:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Barbara Nichole
I'd like to see Black Ops be Black Ops. yes, this means warping while cloaked.. Perhaps with a Black Ops specific version of the covert ops cloak.

More fuel would be welcome. As for making the Black Ops a skimisher, I'm not fond of the idea..


giving them cov ops is something that can be debatable. either that or making it so that it doesn't get any penalties out of fitting an improved cloak would be fine by me.

extra fuel space is always welcome, and I also agree that they shouldn't be skirmishers or brawlers.

Fighter26
Orion's Fist
Posted - 2011.01.11 09:02:00 - [116]
 

Jump range increase of about 1ly and give them a third rig slot- I know unconventional for tech 2 but that's all the BO's need

Asurix
Caldari
StoneDogS
Posted - 2011.01.11 13:56:00 - [117]
 

Increase resistance, not to HAC lvls but higher than they are now this is just laughable for the current price

increase basic jump range by 2,5 LY since it's an integral part of its role to make portals and tbh at the moment it can make a portal only to a belt in a system next door which is just stupid.

Last but not least make either fuel costs lower or fuel bay larger and make it possible to jump through a fleet of 10 recons 10 SB's a cloaky hauler and another BO

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.01.11 14:11:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Asurix
Last but not least make either fuel costs lower or fuel bay larger and make it possible to jump through a fleet of 10 recons 10 SB's a cloaky hauler and another BO


why should you jump a BO thru the portal if you can jump directly to the cyno?

Asurix
Caldari
StoneDogS
Posted - 2011.01.11 14:30:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Asurix
Last but not least make either fuel costs lower or fuel bay larger and make it possible to jump through a fleet of 10 recons 10 SB's a cloaky hauler and another BO


why should you jump a BO thru the portal if you can jump directly to the cyno?


true that's probably a ******ed idea of mine, like most, but it was just to illustrate an amount of ships/sizes that in my opinion should be able to use a portal

Hagbard23Celine
Liga Freier Terraner
Ev0ke
Posted - 2011.01.11 14:46:00 - [120]
 

BO's are nearly perfect. A increased jump range, adding more fuelbay and removing the cloak penalties would be all what is needed to make them absolutly perfect. The main problem is you need one char with cyno 5 and decreasing this to lvl 4 might help to boost bo's a lot. A increase of resists, dmg and whatever is something you don't need if you fit it properly.
- My Sin does nearly 1000dps and thats quite more than a fleet mega does.
- If you need a tank you have done something wrong or misunderstood the role of this kind of ships. A bo isn't a solopwning ubership and never should be but it is still able to kill a ratter solo.


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