open All Channels
seplocked Ships and Modules
blankseplocked Black ops - there were talks of further updates to this ship class...
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5

Author Topic

kerjin
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.11.01 01:52:00 - [31]
 

Increase range - some systems arent accessible even if you are just one ordinary jump away.

Fix the t3 covert cyno issue pls.

Allow covert cyno directly into deadspace (and beyond mission gates) Wink

Widow - ecm range bonus.
Panther - web speed bonus.
Redeemer - neut amount bonus.

Millsy1
Posted - 2010.11.01 02:35:00 - [32]
 

The ability to bridge pods... don't know why they removed that!

Aeo IV
Amarr
Xomic OmniCorporation
Posted - 2010.11.01 03:58:00 - [33]
 

Why not switch the 125% bonus to speed while cloaked bonus with a 15% per level reduction in sig radius, thus making them harder to scan down.

Azver Deroven
Amarr
Pitch Black.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2010.11.01 04:37:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Azver Deroven
stuff
nah, it's not that they aren't "fine" as a role, it's just that they could be much better.

I could live without the cov ops mod in a BO, if, in general, they actually had a longer jump/portal range, and either reduced fuel costs and/or bigger fuel bay.

the sin however, really needs a fix.ugh

Well they could get 75% base resists aboard and have 8 guns with 25/25 bonuses but that would defy the point of them; They are insertion tools and / or support
for their smaller counterparts that do most of the brawling. I for one love RRing sins.

This said; I've noticed the problem said here (Some systems arent accesible via convops jump even if 1 'normal' jump away), and to that end I do agree it could be longer; But then again one has to consider that such long distances could act as a natural chokepoint which I never deem bad, altho Im not the defensive type I trust there should be a way to defend one's home, especially if it happens to be so well picked.

As for fuel bay, I enjoy the factor you've gotta drag industrial with you; Creates use for them that wasnt there and brings logistics closer to the small to medium sized gang warfare, well, at least blackops warfare.

Millsy1
Posted - 2010.11.01 12:35:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Azver Deroven


As for fuel bay, I enjoy the factor you've gotta drag industrial with you; Creates use for them that wasnt there and brings logistics closer to the small to medium sized gang warfare, well, at least blackops warfare.


I don't care for this factor right now. Because as I was saying, for 5 recons being bridged, you then need 4 other ships to act as support. 1 Blackops, 2 covert cyno ships (one in, one out) and a hauler for fuel. Thats just ridiculous. If I needed 4 support ships for a gang of 15 or 20, thats not so bad. But as it stands now, the fuel cost is just too high to be practical.

The flip side, is that bombers take so little fuel, that you can bridge a stupid number of them in one go. roughly 150 of them at max range if i fill the cargo hold. So it's not like being able to bridge 10 or 15 recons at once would somehow overpower things. A little balance would be nice.

Azver Deroven
Amarr
Pitch Black.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2010.11.01 12:43:00 - [36]
 

Yes; True enough that you fall short on fuel with recons but, quite frankly they ARE recon, not ment to be the muscle. Unless I read into it wrong.

Afterall bombers are the muscle for any BO fleet and as such ability to bridge a lot of bombers, rather than cruiser hulls is somewhat understandable, no?

Or it could be Im just doing it wrong.

Meeko Atari
Posted - 2010.11.02 15:49:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: kerjin
Increase range - some systems arent accessible even if you are just one ordinary jump away.

Fix the t3 covert cyno issue pls.

Allow covert cyno directly into deadspace (and beyond mission gates) Wink

Widow - ecm range bonus.
Panther - web speed bonus.
Redeemer - neut amount bonus.



That is my favorite suggestion so far, But would you be able to jump into a system blindly? and only need the Cov-Ops or Regular Cyno to actually "focus" your jump?
Anyway its a great idea!

And As far the E-War Bonuses... I have no idea why they don't already exist on BO's

Devil tiger
Posted - 2010.11.02 20:47:00 - [38]
 

I'd really like to see some buff for black op's.

All Bo's currently seem considerably anemic considering the training and cost to be able to even fly them.

Faction Black ops might be nice to have some day as well.

Gone Beserk
Minmatar
Gravity Mining and Manufacturing Inc
Posted - 2010.11.03 16:27:00 - [39]
 

What i'd like to see for black ops are 2 simple things.

Arrowbeing able to carry far more fuel

ArrowAbility to truely ambush ships wich can be done in several ways like a new BO only module that does.."stuff".

Or hell , why not give it the ability to not apear in local? maybe even let the BO extend that "invisibility" to its gang mates?

I'm sure ccp will come up with somehting.

Lostrego xudaica
Posted - 2010.11.07 18:47:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Devil tiger
I'd really like to see some buff for black op's.

All Bo's currently seem considerably anemic considering the training and cost to be able to even fly them.


^^^
That is my main concern as well. In their current state, Blops aren't attractive at all.

-Close to half a billion just for the hull alone? eek
-Strong support required for effective use? hrm
-Intensive skill pre-requisites? meh
-Mediocre racial BS bonuses combined with a flat Blops skill bonus? ouch
-Relatively small jump range? depressing

You can toss me into the group that is begging for a Black Ops revamp or re-look. These ships have so much potential to be great.

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2010.11.07 21:23:00 - [41]
 

I don't think they need anything fancy, just a little bump as others have said. Some of the bonuses are silly like the sin's agility bonus and need to be changed. The bigger problem is the lack of range, tank and dps however. A small boost in those three areas would make them far more appealing. So I'd like to see:

1) Increased jump range, 6-8LY at max skills would be good, 5LY is just too short.

2) Decreased covert jump bridge fuel usage, not sure on amount.

3) Increased resistances. Recon's are the model here I think.

4) T1 variant's slot layout + 1 low/mid slot (it's t2 after all)

5) Same number of weapon hard points as T1 version. You don't have to use them, but option should be there.

6) Cloak bonuses need revision. Either cov ops cloak, no cloak bonus or remove all negative cloak effects. The speed bonus was fail on stealth bombers, it's even more fail on a plated and trimarked redeemer!

7) Increase base HP to the same amount as T1 variant.

8) With alteration to cloaking bonuses, scan resolution needs to be rebalanced (aka nerfed to hell, base redeemer scan res is 220mm atm).

I believe they should be soundly superior to t1 BS's but not so much that it's overpowered. So to that end I think the redeemer should have comparable direct combat capability to a navy geddon, the sin should be like the navy domi and so on. Since they are far more expensive, the jump drive and jump portal is what makes them worth the added cost. I would not be opposed to adding some vulnerabilities as well like the marauder's pathetic sensor strength. None can say your ship is overpowered when you get perma jammed by 5x EC-300's.Laughing

Telinturco
Rogue Clones
Posted - 2010.11.07 22:16:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Telinturco on 07/11/2010 22:18:58
Originally by: King Rothgar
I don't think they need anything fancy, just a little bump as others have said. Some of the bonuses are silly like the sin's agility bonus and need to be changed. The bigger problem is the lack of range, tank and dps however. A small boost in those three areas would make them far more appealing. So I'd like to see:

1) Increased jump range, 6-8LY at max skills would be good, 5LY is just too short.

2) Decreased covert jump bridge fuel usage, not sure on amount.

3) Increased resistances. Recon's are the model here I think.

4) T1 variant's slot layout + 1 low/mid slot (it's t2 after all)

5) Same number of weapon hard points as T1 version. You don't have to use them, but option should be there.

6) Cloak bonuses need revision. Either cov ops cloak, no cloak bonus or remove all negative cloak effects. The speed bonus was fail on stealth bombers, it's even more fail on a plated and trimarked redeemer!

7) Increase base HP to the same amount as T1 variant.

8) With alteration to cloaking bonuses, scan resolution needs to be rebalanced (aka nerfed to hell, base redeemer scan res is 220mm atm).

I believe they should be soundly superior to t1 BS's but not so much that it's overpowered. So to that end I think the redeemer should have comparable direct combat capability to a navy geddon, the sin should be like the navy domi and so on. Since they are far more expensive, the jump drive and jump portal is what makes them worth the added cost. I would not be opposed to adding some vulnerabilities as well like the marauder's pathetic sensor strength. None can say your ship is overpowered when you get perma jammed by 5x EC-300's.Laughing

I strongly disagree, precisely because the first portion of that sentence renders the second portion impossible. A T1 BS given a cov ops cloak alone would be OP. Give it an extra slot as well? Insanely OP. Resists as well? Now you're in lol territory.

All these ships need is a slight boost in jump range and fuel capacity and a cov ops cloak. Replace the useless bonuses with EW related boosts. Do not turn these things into cloaky HACs that out DPS their T1 cousins.

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2010.11.07 23:08:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: King Rothgar on 07/11/2010 23:14:21
I said nothing of a covert ops cloak. In fact, I even suggested removing all cloaking bonuses from it as a possibility. I suggest you re-read my post. I know I listed many individual things there but they are small changes on their own. Some of them are also negative changes.

I would like to see them on the par with navy ships in terms of direct combat. This can best be done by giving them recon level resists and their t1 counterpart's raw HP. Keep in mind you do lose a rig slot as with all t2 ships, that's a big deal. Also notice that the navy geddon has 7 turrets, 4 mids, and 8 lows. So giving the redeemer an 8th low like both the standard and navy geddon isn't exactly OP. If push came to shove, I'd rather dump the 4th mid and get back the 8th low. It's more useful.

I'd also like their range boosted some and the fuel usage for the jump portal decreased. As it stands there are systems linked by gates that are out of jump range for it. That's just ****ed. It's also not really disputed. That view is pretty much universal.

A t2 anything should not be a sitting duck for it's t1 counterpart. That's what BO's currently are. I wouldn't dare go after an armageddon in my redeemer solo, in fact, I wouldn't even try it 2v1 if I thought he was decent. And I'm a guy who charges into 12 man BC gangs solo in a maelstrom. So I'm not exactly risk adverse.Laughing

Edit: It is important to note that both navy ships and their pirate faction counterparts are already soundly superior to the base T1 versions. And yet they are not overpowered for the most part (cynabal and dramiel excluded). Price is a balancing factor in most cases. The only time it isn't is when something is so powerful it becomes borderline invincible. A BS putting along at 115m/s with 250k EHP (with slaves) and 1000 dps is a far cry from invincible. If it were, I'd fly nothing but navy geddons. They are tough and powerful, but they can be killed easily enough.

Soldarius
Caldari
Peek-A-Boo Bombers
Posted - 2010.11.08 05:53:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Baudolino
I have and i use different black ops for pvp. but i still find it poorly defined and ill-equipped. I use it mostly because it`s easier to move around and i`m a -9.0 character. It would however be nice to see both some general updates and some role/gang related features.



Quick scan of your kill stats proves this to be false on both fronts. No kills, and no losses with Black Ops. Not to say you've never flown one. But your stats don't support it.

That being said,

Quote:
I see all Black Ops as close range fighters- this is the one thing that unify all the BOs and the one thing that should remain consistent with ANY buffs or updates- close range equals higher risk which in turn would generally allow for some buffs.


Are you insane? You want a 500M isk BS with T1 resists and crappy dps as a close-range brawler? Please feel free to come to Geminate. I'll be happy for the km.

Quote:
-remove fitting penalties on cloaking device


What cloak fitting penalties? Last I checked, they get a speed bonus while cloaked for every level of BO, and no targeting delay after decloaking. You realize that means they insta-warp after uncloaking, right? (Assuming you were smart enough to align while cloaked.)

And you want to put an ECM burst on your Widow with a range bonus? Sure. Break lock on all your recons and SB buddies. That'll work great. You can already fit it with a pair of smartbombs or heavy neuts. You don't need it.

You clearly have no understanding of the purpose and benefits of using covert ops/black ops ships. They succeed by using the element of surprise. They get in behind you and show you the joys of surprise butt-sex when you are most vulnerable. Get a clue.

Want some improvements for BO? They are T2 ships. Give them the T2 resists for start. Give them the covert ops cloak. Right now, they are just limited-use, over-priced, portable jump portal generators.


Leksi Bar'zuk
Posted - 2010.11.08 06:12:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Leksi Bar''zuk on 08/11/2010 06:48:36
Give it a siege module that turns the BO into a small tower of appropriate race. Idea

(sorry, bad joke)

Kastsumi Kobayariel
Posted - 2010.11.08 06:37:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Soldarius
You clearly have no understanding of the purpose and benefits of using covert ops/black ops ships.


Originally by: Soldarius
Give them the covert ops cloak.


Cool

Originally by: Soldarius
What cloak fitting penalties? Last I checked, they get a speed bonus while cloaked for every level of BO, and no targeting delay after decloaking.


Even if BOps can lock a target with no delay after uncloaking, fitting a T2 cloak still cuts down their scan resolution to laughable levels.

Chris Bailey
Posted - 2010.11.08 07:59:00 - [47]
 

Make it so you can bridge industrials

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.11.08 08:34:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Chris Bailey
Make it so you can bridge industrials


You can already bridge blockade runners, can you not?

AstarothPrime
Posted - 2010.11.08 08:55:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Kastsumi Kobayariel


Originally by: Soldarius
What cloak fitting penalties? Last I checked, they get a speed bonus while cloaked for every level of BO, and no targeting delay after decloaking.


Even if BOps can lock a target with no delay after uncloaking, fitting a T2 cloak still cuts down their scan resolution to laughable levels.


Yea, something like:

locks like a titan - stings like a cruiser stuff Wink

One corp mate had one BO for sale and I really wanted to fly it... but upon close inspection I saw it aint the covops cloak it can get mounted - but regular which gives so many debuffs it basically useless...

i.

Javelin6
Dirt Nap Squad
Posted - 2010.11.08 12:39:00 - [50]
 

My 2 ISK as someone who has spent "some" time in one.


* Swap the cloaked velocity bonus for a jump/portal range bonus.
* Remove scan resolution penalty for fitting cloaking devices.
* Swap Panther speed bonus for a projectile tracking bonus.
* Swap Sin agility bonus for hybrid ROF or tracking bonus.
* Use standard T2 resists for all Black-Ops Battleships.

Cecilia Syal
Minmatar
Blood Inquisition
Posted - 2010.11.08 13:48:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Cecilia Syal on 08/11/2010 13:50:48

I don't get why black ops can't use covert cloaks for one.. since they work so closely with other covert ships and even make bridges for them. the cloak bonus is alot like the old bombers who couldn't use covert cloaks in beginning if i remember and just got a velocity bonus while cloaked & it was fail

I don't mind them being a lot weaker than the t1 BS's, but they should be able to use covert cloaks. or get increased jump/bridge range. and their dps should be significantly more than a covert recon ship, so you could have mixed bomber/ recon/ bs gangs go behind enemy lines.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.11.08 14:01:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Javelin6
My 2 ISK as someone who has spent "some" time in one.


* Swap the cloaked velocity bonus for a jump/portal range bonus.
* Remove scan resolution and speed penalty for fitting cloaking devices.
* Swap Panther speed bonus for a projectile tracking bonus.
* Swap Sin agility bonus for hybrid ROF or tracking bonus.
* Use standard T2 resists for all Black-Ops Battleships.


fyp.

Kalana Eargon
Posted - 2010.11.08 15:23:00 - [53]
 

They need the following:
- Larger fuel bay
- Increased resists to make EHP more on par with their T1 counter parts (still lower though), and allow RR from say a bonused T3 ship to be more effective.
- Slightly increase jump and portal range
- Increase the base scan resolution a lot, allowing targeting with cloak to still be faster than T1 BS and incredibly fast for people who decide to forgo the cloak.

It would be nice if my Widow could jump through into the battle and jam out the enemy before they all primary and kill me, without the need for 2x sensor boosters w/scripts.

I would say biggest thing they need however though is a larger fuel bay.

Dray
Caldari
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.11.08 16:26:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Dray on 08/11/2010 16:55:52
Been a long time since I used one but as a once regular user the things that stood out for me was the lack of jump range and how much fuel you could carry and the agility and speed bonus of the Sin and Panther, the 2nd issue was addressed but the jump range needs to be looked at again.

My 2 cents.

1. Sin agility bonus to be changed to a rof bonus, +1 turret and maybe -1 mid +1 low.
2. Panther speed bonus to be changed to a tracking bonus and +1 turret.
3. Jump range increased.
4. Build cost reduction.
5. Jump fuel use reduction.

Cov ops cloak use, no, would just be too much.

Also the Panther has 5 mid and 6 lows, yet has higher shield hp, the same problem the Typhoon had albeit with 4 mids and 7 lows, it took CCP around 6 years I believe to fix the Phoon in this area, god knows how long it will take for the Panther, but seriously more lows than mids and higher shield hp, it's not funny any more.

All of the above would be nice, finally the jump portal use needs to be looked at, a black ops with a portal needs to gimp itself to be able to carry enough fuel, while I see it as a problem I'm not offering a solution I'll leave to some one else, when my friends and I used BO's we just looked the logistics of the portal and f**ked it off.

RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Black Viper Nomads
Posted - 2010.11.08 17:06:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Javelin6
My 2 ISK as someone who has spent "some" time in one.
* Swap the cloaked velocity bonus for a jump/portal range bonus.



Anything to avoid having to stuff the low slots with friggin expanded cargo holds and/or schlep around a transport ship.

The rest of the buffs....don't care.

All I know is I trained up for thing...Cyno V and all them capital-based jump skills...and guess what?

Yep...I'm finishing Amarr Frigate V for the Sentinel and just bought a Navy Issue Typhoon instead of ****ing the ISK away on a Panther. Because I can actually have constant fun with Sentinel/Phoon Very Happy.

Kastsumi Kobayariel
Posted - 2010.11.08 18:10:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Anything to avoid having to stuff the low slots with friggin expanded cargo holds and/or schlep around a transport ship.


You know something's wrong with a combat and support ship class when the following dialogue happens:

"So, what BOps should I train for?"
"Redeemer, hands down."
"Why, because of lasers?"
"Nah man, it's got more lows for cargo expanders."

Laughing

Dray
Caldari
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.11.08 18:39:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Dray on 08/11/2010 18:39:44
Originally by: Kastsumi Kobayariel
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Anything to avoid having to stuff the low slots with friggin expanded cargo holds and/or schlep around a transport ship.


You know something's wrong with a combat and support ship class when the following dialogue happens:

"So, what BOps should I train for?"
"Redeemer, hands down."
"Why, because of lasers?"
"Nah man, it's got more lows for cargo expanders."




This, like most great comedy it's the truth.

Laughing

S3dINSTBE
Goat rapists
Posted - 2010.11.08 20:01:00 - [58]
 

increase range and allow it to open up a bubble that cloaks all ships within imagine the tactics u could pull off with that

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2010.11.08 21:12:00 - [59]
 

None since you'd still be listed in local and everyone would know you're there.

Soldarius
Caldari
Peek-A-Boo Bombers
Posted - 2010.11.09 04:59:00 - [60]
 

Improved Cloaking Device II: -40% Scan Resolution Penalty.

Shocked

Never even noticed it. Yeah, definitely get rid of that as a role bonus. Or just give it Covert Ops cloak. Very Happy


Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only