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Baudolino
Gallente
Royal Crimson Lancers
Posted - 2010.10.27 12:04:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Baudolino on 17/11/2010 13:31:59
Edited by: Baudolino on 17/11/2010 13:27:58
Edited by: Baudolino on 16/11/2010 13:05:27
Edited by: Baudolino on 11/11/2010 20:45:27
Please do not mention covert ops cloaking in this thread- it`s unimaginitive and will never happen..

Back when the fuel bay was introduced we were told that CCP was going to conduct further ovehauls of the class.

Is there any forthcoming information on this?

I have and i use different black ops for pvp, but i still find it poorly defined and ill-equipped. I use it mostly because it`s easier to move around and i`m a -9.0 character. It would however be nice to see both some general updates and some role/gang related features.

So here i revive the old thread and re-introduce a few suggestions is brought during the fuel bay/cargo bay discussion of earlier..

I see all Black Ops as close range fighters- this is the one thing that unify all the BOs and the one thing that should remain consistent with ANY buffs or updates- close range equals higher risk which in turn would generally allow for some buffs.

+increase resistances from 12.5% to 25% above tech I versions
-remove fitting penalties on cloaking device

Also...
all BO get one of the following bonuses
(These bonuses are designed to aid the black op gang in it`s role completion and in escaping- as these are area effect bonuses and affect friendly ships as well- i do not consider them overpowered)


Caldari = ECM burst bonus (240s cycle time 2500 cap activation)
40% range pr lvl (5% pr lvl extra on specialization skill)
20% strength pr lvl (5% pr lvl on specialization skill)

Minmatar = Smartbomb bonus (not sure about this one)
40% range pr lvl (5% pr lvl extra on specialization skill)
20% strength pr lvl (5% pr lvl extra on specialization skill)

Amarr = Cap neutralization pulse (240 sec cycle time)
6km base range, 2500 cap activation, 3000 cap neutralized
40% range pr lvl (5% pr lvl extra on specialization skill)
10% amount pr lvl (5% pr lvl extra on specialization skill)

Gallente = Propulsion neutralization pulse
6km base range, deactivates MWD+AB, duration 10sec (240sec cycle time 2500 cap activation)
40% range pr lvl (5% pr lvl extra on specialization skill)
20% duraton pr lvl (5% pr lvl extra on specialization skill)

These are mostly bonuses that do not exist in-game. In addition they have the potential to be dtrimental to own forces if used uncritically. This mix or some similar mix of bonuses would open for a wider range of tactical gameplay and make the black ops exciting tools for small/medium gangs..

I hope this looks a little bit interesting or at the very leat can generate some discussion that does not relate to covert ops cloaking.

Edit:
My second post in this thread

Micro-jumping suggestion

My third post- summarizing and elaborating

Kendon Riddick
Posted - 2010.10.27 12:09:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Baudolino

I see all Black Ops as close range fighters- this is the one thing that unify all the BOs and the one thing that should remain consistent with ANY buffs or updates- close range equals higher risk which in turn would generally allow for some buffs.

Caldari = ECM burst bonus
40% range pr lvl

Minmatar = Smartbomb bonus
40% range pr lvl

Amarr = Cap neutralization pulse (240 sec cycle time)
6km base range, 2500 cap activation, 3000 cap neutralized
40% range pr lvl

Gallente = Propulsion neutralization pulse (240sec cycle time)
6km base range, deactivates MWD+AB, duration 10sec
40% range pr lvl




are you high?

Millsy1
Posted - 2010.10.27 12:30:00 - [3]
 

Interesting bonuses, maybe for another ship.

But one that works in close range with friendly stealth bombers? ya. those bonuses will get your entire gang killed everytime!

Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2010.10.27 13:08:00 - [4]
 

What BO's need is a complite overhaul for slot layouts and BO's per lvl bonuses.

Drakin030
Caldari
IT Alliance
Posted - 2010.10.27 15:23:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Drakin030 on 27/10/2010 15:26:02
It needs the ability to use Covert Ops cloaking. Would be perfectly fine at that point.

Or be able to carry more fuel.

Land0 CaIrissian
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.10.27 15:51:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Drakin030
Edited by: Drakin030 on 27/10/2010 15:26:02
It needs the ability to use Covert Ops cloaking. Would be perfectly fine at that point.


perfectly fine without it.

On the most basic level, a small bump to jump range would be pretty awesome.


Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.10.27 16:36:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Land0 CaIrissian
Originally by: Drakin030
Edited by: Drakin030 on 27/10/2010 15:26:02
It needs the ability to use Covert Ops cloaking. Would be perfectly fine at that point.


perfectly fine without it.

On the most basic level, a small bump to jump range would be pretty awesome.


this

Aylara
Posted - 2010.10.27 16:42:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Aylara on 27/10/2010 16:44:12
- increase DPS
- increase jump range
- increase scan resolution
but
- keep/decrease covert portal range
- keep tank as it is atm

Makes BO able to be used for front line ambush missions and increases the risks if you want to attack further away with no support (smaller portal range). No more "useful only for covert bridging" ship.

Pr1ncess Alia
Posted - 2010.10.27 16:44:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Land0 CaIrissian
Originally by: Drakin030
Edited by: Drakin030 on 27/10/2010 15:26:02
It needs the ability to use Covert Ops cloaking. Would be perfectly fine at that point.


perfectly fine without it.

On the most basic level, a small bump to jump range would be pretty awesome.


this


It would be good with the cloak I think.

It certainly wouldn't be overpowered and it would further open up it's role beyond strictly covops gang work.

So I'd say add the cloak,
increase the jump range,
increase the fuel capability
and decrease the speed bonus (+75% per skill?)

Clone 565
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2010.10.27 16:46:00 - [10]
 

BO's are sexy, I need a reason to buy one, OP's "bonus" ideas would not make me buy one

General Trajan
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.10.27 17:15:00 - [11]
 

it's not even a cap ship relative to mass (if this is even a factor witch it should be)! so i don't see why BOs should be able to jump the farthest of any ship.

and at that to be in true spirit to the LRRP way of doing things Wink

Slade Hoo
Amarr
Retired Gunslingers
Posted - 2010.10.27 17:30:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Slade Hoo on 27/10/2010 17:36:33
I think Black Ops are generally fine with a few exceptions. Just buff the raw stats of them a bit, so that they have more EHP than a Battlecruiser (maybe around 6k-7k for shield/armor/structure like a tier1-2 BS) and boost their sensor resolution, so that they can lock faster. Right now the bonus of instant locking after decloak is pretty useless because of cloak penalty and BS-sensor resolution.
Give them a bonus in using cloaking device so that there isn't a penalty for scan resolution and nerf their basic resolution a bit.

Especially the Widow locks slower than a falcon/rook WITH the Bonus of instant locking after decloak.

Would be cool if you can use your MWD all the time while being cloaked. But that's only a dream of me Wink

I'm fine with jump range and fuel bay though.

Wacktopia
Sicarius.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2010.10.28 00:47:00 - [13]
 

I have an idea too: CCP need to create a forum area for all these suggestions. The can call it something like.. Features and Ideas Discussion?

Ahz
Posted - 2010.10.28 15:12:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Baudolino
+increase resistances from 12.5% to 25% above tech I versions
-remove fitting penalties on cloaking device
This
Originally by: Land0 CaIrissian
On the most basic level, a small bump to jump range would be pretty awesome.
Plus this

And this: Ability to bridge any frigate class hull. Remove the restriction to stealth bombers and recons. The bridging calculation should be based on mass alone

Crimson Athena
Posted - 2010.10.28 16:37:00 - [15]
 

I still think they should use The other cloak. the ships are so expensive and limited.
BUT if CCP refuses to do that consider the following.
How about beefing up the resistances for the following role as they will become primary like never before, black ops get a device built into the ship to send a ping or pulse out to 300km, i thought about 110km but then sniper warp to locations are still safe. This "ping" could be done every 25 seconds maybe and uncloaks the ships for maybe as long as 10 seconds. There would be no penalty for using this. This adds a new important role for the ship and helps counter cloaky ships which many people would like to see. I think this would force covert pilots to become better pilots and make the black ops the counter to covert ships and cloaky in general. I have heard some say they should limit cloaks as far as time I dont agree with that.
This is just an idea feel free to comment. Flaming is really not needed.

I'mEmo
Posted - 2010.10.29 00:29:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Crimson Athena
I still think they should use The other cloak. the ships are so expensive and limited.
BUT if CCP refuses to do that consider the following.
How about beefing up the resistances for the following role as they will become primary like never before, black ops get a device built into the ship to send a ping or pulse out to 300km, i thought about 110km but then sniper warp to locations are still safe. This "ping" could be done every 25 seconds maybe and uncloaks the ships for maybe as long as 10 seconds. There would be no penalty for using this. This adds a new important role for the ship and helps counter cloaky ships which many people would like to see. I think this would force covert pilots to become better pilots and make the black ops the counter to covert ships and cloaky in general. I have heard some say they
should limit cloaks as far as time I dont agree with that.
This is just an idea feel free to comment. Flaming is really not needed.



I think the idea of black ops ships being the counter to cloaky is a superb idea. It makes them more viable with this feature, they become more worthwhile in fleets, a great asset. The 110km is a good idea too, for the reason that people can warp to 100 and that range will give you a few seconds to spot, target, and uncloak them. It doesn't negate sniping ships it just mitigates those long range shooters. I also, agree with the idea that it will create better pilots. Can you tell, I really really like this idea.

Leksi Bar'zuk
Posted - 2010.10.29 00:31:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Slade Hoo
Edited by: Slade Hoo on 27/10/2010 17:36:33
I think Black Ops are generally fine with a few exceptions. Just buff the raw stats of them a bit, so that they have more EHP than a Battlecruiser (maybe around 6k-7k for shield/armor/structure like a tier1-2 BS) and boost their sensor resolution, so that they can lock faster. Right now the bonus of instant locking after decloak is pretty useless because of cloak penalty and BS-sensor resolution.
Give them a bonus in using cloaking device so that there isn't a penalty for scan resolution and nerf their basic resolution a bit.

Especially the Widow locks slower than a falcon/rook WITH the Bonus of instant locking after decloak.

Would be cool if you can use your MWD all the time while being cloaked. But that's only a dream of me Wink

I'm fine with jump range and fuel bay though.

Good poast. Agree with this.

Hooded Hauler
Posted - 2010.10.31 15:51:00 - [18]
 

Blackops do not need to become more mainstream. For those that know how to use them they do the job they are good at. Just because 50% of EVE doesn't fly them doesn't mean they are broken

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.10.31 16:47:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Hooded Hauler
Blackops do not need to become more mainstream. For those that know how to use them they do the job they are good at. Just because 50% of EVE doesn't fly them doesn't mean they are broken
making them a bit more attractive however doesn't hurt.


specially the Sin. the poor thing could use some sort of refurbishing.

TheKalila
Posted - 2010.10.31 17:05:00 - [20]
 

As far as stats and what not, Redeemer is fine. Widow is OK-ish considering it's mean't to be for ECM, could do with some better stats.

Panther and Sin need a serious reworking of base stats, layout and bonuses. They are both severely outclassed by T1 counterparts.

Covert Ops cloak would make them really scary and versatile gankers but personally I feel this should be one of their roles.

Millsy1
Posted - 2010.10.31 17:24:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Hooded Hauler
Blackops do not need to become more mainstream. For those that know how to use them they do the job they are good at. Just because 50% of EVE doesn't fly them doesn't mean they are broken


It's more like 99.9% of eve right now. I believe on one update CCP said there were fewer active Black ops than titans. And I don't think Blackops have been gaining on them.

We have seen about 4 gangs of Blackops/recons come into Cobalt Edge in the last 6 or 8 months. One of them did nothing but jump around and nearly got caught. 2 of them caught a mining op with their pants down. One just got a few minor kills.

I've taken about the same number of gangs out roaming as well. Though all mine are just with my own Panther, bridging bombers. I've been able to get some very nice kills, though I did get a whole gang killed at a pos trying to kill a carrier (nearly got the thing).

It takes far too much prep to do those ops, even with the good results. Planning where you have to get a covert cyno because you can't make 90% of the region jumps. Then you use up most of the fuel in the bay just getting to a jump off point, so you have to bring a hauler with fuel, or setup GSC's before hand. Then you have to have someone else with a covert cyno to get back (that really needs to be dropped to Cyno 4 instead of cyno 5 so more people can use them).

For me to go anywhere, it's going to be at least 6 or 7 jumps. Titans can hold enough fuel to bridge a half dozen freighters, and a whole support fleet, halfway across eve no problem. I'd like to be able to take a gang of 5 recons a couple regions over and come back home without having to do a half day of logistics. Instead, I can hardly even bridge 5 recons once, and still jump myself, let alone come back.

Thats what needs to change.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.10.31 18:23:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: TheKalila
Panther and Sin need a serious reworking of base stats, layout and bonuses. They are both severely outclassed by T1 counterparts.


panther, imho, just needs to replace the speed bonus and a 6th turret slot or smth.


sin however, needs quite the rework, specially in terms of bonus layout (I would go even as far as replace the hybrid dmg bonus for smth else, together with the useless agility bonus), mass, and actually trading 1 of the highslots for a med or a lowslot.
and that's just for starters.

VanNostrum
Posted - 2010.10.31 21:08:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Baudolino
there were talks of further updates to this ship class...


where?

Millsy1
Posted - 2010.10.31 22:41:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: VanNostrum
Originally by: Baudolino
there were talks of further updates to this ship class...


where?



Linkage

I can't find the results of the meeting with CCP, but at the time, they agreed to look at the blackops again I believe it was in Feb of this year? Nothing has resulted from that as far as I can tell.

Azver Deroven
Amarr
Pitch Black.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2010.10.31 23:25:00 - [25]
 

Its fine. Really, its fine.

I understand people are annoyed by the fact its not battleship sized stealthbomber or alike, but it has its own use. Its own role; And to that role it fits and it does it well. I've got no idea why people would use it for something else; Solo battleship hull with a cloak is not gonna come out and you can all rest well tonight.

Only point I agree is that the penalties on fitting a cloak could go; But the reasoning behind tactical gameplay and them becoming assets to small to medium fleets is flawed as they already are; If you need higher resists you're flying it wrong anyway, not to mention that its not a fighter, its an assassin. Its not meant for fair fights and it should never ever engage in one. Equally true for any stealth ship far as Im concerned, and partially true to any fight in eve-o. There really shouldnt be engagements that, from the first beat, are 'risky', there should only be risk of having another gang interupt your work and as such; You should be Dscanning and prepared to let the pray go to save yourself.

Then again maybe chivalry exists in some blackops fleets, but I sure hope it isnt contageous.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.11.01 00:44:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Azver Deroven
Its fine. Really, its fine.

I understand people are annoyed by the fact its not battleship sized stealthbomber or alike, but it has its own use. Its own role; And to that role it fits and it does it well. I've got no idea why people would use it for something else; Solo battleship hull with a cloak is not gonna come out and you can all rest well tonight.

Only point I agree is that the penalties on fitting a cloak could go; But the reasoning behind tactical gameplay and them becoming assets to small to medium fleets is flawed as they already are; If you need higher resists you're flying it wrong anyway, not to mention that its not a fighter, its an assassin. Its not meant for fair fights and it should never ever engage in one. Equally true for any stealth ship far as Im concerned, and partially true to any fight in eve-o. There really shouldnt be engagements that, from the first beat, are 'risky', there should only be risk of having another gang interupt your work and as such; You should be Dscanning and prepared to let the pray go to save yourself.

Then again maybe chivalry exists in some blackops fleets, but I sure hope it isnt contageous.
nah, it's not that they aren't "fine" as a role, it's just that they could be much better.

I could live without the cov ops mod in a BO, if, in general, they actually had a longer jump/portal range, and either reduced fuel costs and/or bigger fuel bay.

the sin however, really needs a fix.ugh

TgrFox5
Posted - 2010.11.01 01:00:00 - [27]
 

I think they should just be bigger recon that can bridge people around. So the bonuses should be in line with their race, gallente damps, amarr, enery neut, minmatar webs, caldari jams, ect...

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.11.01 01:03:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: TgrFox5
I think they should just be bigger recon that can bridge people around. So the bonuses should be in line with their race, gallente damps, amarr, enery neut, minmatar webs, caldari jams, ect...
nah. too many roles for a T2 ship.

BO's should be first and foremost forced insertion tools.

TgrFox5
Posted - 2010.11.01 01:30:00 - [29]
 

don't they do that now?

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.11.01 01:47:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: TgrFox5
don't they do that now?
you actually need a very big logistic chain just to make the portals work.


increasing jump/portal range wouldn't do any harm, together with a bigger fuel bay, as I said above.


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