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Prometheus Exenthal
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2010.10.26 07:38:00 - [1]
 

I thought now would be an appropriate time to look at AF balance again.

First things first, let me introduce myself and also state that I am cross-posting this on SHC.
My name is Prometheus Exenthal, and I'm sure some people are pretty familiar with my name be it directly or through any of the videos I have produced over the years (FRIGANK 1-7, DIAC).
I've been flying frigates for a very long time now and myself along with the rest of the GENOS corp tend to know what we're talking about when it comes to frigates and such.
Don't intend to sound egotistical or anything, but having a background helps when proposing anything Smile

So right into it! I'd like to introduce an idea that covers all the assault frigates; A 5th bonus.
Hear me out, I realize that we don't even have a fourth bonus but the truth is I'm not sure (since they've boosted faction) that a fourth bonus would make them really worthwhile.

Keep in mind that everything you are reading here is assuming that the rocket changes currently (10/26/10) on sisi are going live with Incursion.

My reasoning behind it goes like this:
T1 -> Interceptor -> EAS -> Recon
T1 -> Interceptor -> AF -> HAC
T1 -> Interceptor -> Bomber -> BS


The way I see the ships is that the T2 frigates act as a bridge between the smaller and larger counterparts (in terms of skills trained).
Now this would imply that EAS need some fixing as well (they do), but that's beyond the scope of this post.

So, before I get into the nitty gritty I'm going to state that the temporary bonus that CCP gave involving a bonus to afterburner speed, was overpowered.
Sure it was fun, but it basically meant that if you did not have medium neut fit to your ship you were going to die to whatever AF caught you.

I think we all know how the Dramiel turned out, so just imagine that with common ships that can tank really well. Bad idea.

Right, so on to it...

Quote:
A 5th BONUS
Yea I said it. Before you all flip your lids and ****, just shut up and read.
AFs need a 4th bonus, yes. But that won't make them better (as I said before).

EAS & AFs would get this, not bombers since they already have 7+ (yep).

The bonus I have in mind is MWD sig bonus like interceptors.
Perhaps a sig reduction of 60% instead of 75%, just so they aren't still super fat but wont replace interceptors for their roles.

This would allow EAS/AFs to be faster and more practical on the battlefield, without getting one vollied by everyone.

It's that simple, nothing else to it.


Now that that is out of the way, I will move on to changes and such I'd like to see to the specific AFs:


Quote:
The Retribution
Nothing has changed, so I'm just copying this from the last time I thought about it.

Everyone knows the problem with this ship, it has 1 mid slot.
The Retribution has the potential to be completely broken. It can do relatively awesome dps and some nice ranges, all while having an excellent tank. Balancing the beast can seem a little daunting but I think the fix is really straightforward.

My Solution:
Give it a 2nd mid, lol. Now, they can just straight up give it a 2nd mid without changing a thing, but that would be incredibly imbalanced. It doesn't produce Enyo DPS but it does what it can at much better range while having a MUCH MUCH better tank. That an all AFs share the same number of slots, so an extra slot would be broken. They would have to trade a low or high for it. Ideally a low since the high slot is needed for Nos if you even want to dream of an active tank. That's personal preference of course, but passive frig tanks aren't exactly the most ideal in my experience.

4th Bonus:
Simply put, give it a 5% tracking bonus per level.
The ship is pretty solid as is, it just needs another midslot. So basically like a tanking Crusader.

Prometheus Exenthal
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2010.10.26 07:40:00 - [2]
 

Quote:
The Harpy
There isn't much wrong with the Harpy per se, but it does need some love. The main issue with it is fitting.

My Solution:
Simply give it a touch more powergrid and cpu, and a itty bitty bit more agility. The ship isn't bad, but it can be a huge pain to fit. With the 5th bonus pretty much asking for a MWD to be fit, the extra fitting would be much appreciated.

4th Bonus:
5% shield resists per level would give the ship rougly 6.8k eHP in shields with a MSE & DCU fit. Not bad, and definitely fits the new persona of AFs.

Quote:
The Enyo
The Enyo is an odd ship, and since I fly it most I have a little more to say about it.
Basically it needs more eHP, dps, and speed/agility. There's no other way around it. The Ishkur does the same damage, has range control, and speed advantage. What purpose does the Enyo serve?

My Solution:
First things first, change the Enyo to a Duvolle ship like the Deimos. It will suit the ship better and hell it may even turn gold.

Give the ship a base speed of 400ms so its faster than an Ishkur, but slower than a Wolf.
Adjust the agility slightly, since it should be much quicker getting up to speed, and unplated it shouldn't be slower to align than a plated Wolf.
Slightly more base armor, I'm talking like 100 armor hitpoints.
A slightly larger capacitor would be much appreciated as well.

Since it's becoming Duvolle that means different bonuses.
- 7.5% tracking stays since it's a 2 mid slot ship (AF Bonus)
- 10% falloff per level (AF bonus)
- 7.5% hybrid damage per level (Frig Bonus)

Not sure why it was optimal since thats caldari, but it doesn't really matter at frigate level. But with 2 mids, falloff serves better since more dps will be applied at point blank, and not at kiting ranges (like the Harpy).

4th Bonus:
5% less cap penalty when fitting mwd. Just like the Deimos. The big big advantage that the Deimos has over say a Thorax & Vigilant, is that it can MWD forever, and use a nos to keep guns and tackle running when being neuted.
I think this will give a much needed edge to the Enyo since it is neut fodder.

Prometheus Exenthal
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2010.10.26 07:43:00 - [3]
 

Quote:
The Rest
This is how I see the rest of the ships and their 4th bonuses:

The Wolf & Jaguar
These two are ****ed. CCP did something they shouldn't and mixed up the ships on the drawing board. As a result you've got an armor tanking Vaga and a shield tanking Muninn. This is how I think things can be approached.
Change the Jags optimal bonus to falloff, and it gets 2.5% velocity per level. It's hard to say how this would pan out, since many people like its ability to tank in scram range. With that said it SHOULD be a mini Vagabond.
The Wolf keeps its falloff bonus, and a gains 5% tracking bonus per level. Wolf gets the 2mid slot bonus treatment. A SLIGHT dps increase may be in order to keep up with the Enyos boost. Hell, give it some more falloff too.

Ishkur
This gets the Ishtars drone range bonus (5km per level) as well as having longer targeting range. Getting this ship off the Enyos case, this shoud have the Ishkur be more of a kiter than a brawler. Making use of its web and rails to combat frigs, or drop the web and go for heavy tackle vs larger ships, losing its range control.

Vengeance
This gets 2.5% rocket ROF bonus, like it should. It's true this might be a little OP vs frigs, but the ship is slow as **** and has to sacrifice a mid if it wants to have a real tank at the cost of range control and dps. It should pan out to around 200dps with a bcu, rigs, and implants. Nothing terribly threatening to larger ships.

Hawk
This gets 2.5% explosion velocity per level. The goal being that it wont need a web to apply full dps to slower ships. The reason being is that this is only ship that uses its mids and lows to do dps, in addition to using its mids to tank. Being able to drop a tackle module to benefit its tanking bonus would be a huge benefit vs larger targets.


Before anyone chimes in saying some ships have roles for PVE and the like, that is a moot point.
If it's more practical for me to pvp in a Probe than a Retribution, then there is a problem.
The ships are broken, and need to be addressed.

That about sums it up, so like last time I'm donning my flame suit.
Promethes Exenthal for CSM 2011 Wink

Caldari 5
Amarr
The Element Syndicate
Blazing Angels Alliance
Posted - 2010.10.26 08:29:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal
Quote:
The Retribution
Nothing has changed, so I'm just copying this from the last time I thought about it.

Everyone knows the problem with this ship, it has 1 mid slot.
The Retribution has the potential to be completely broken. It can do relatively awesome dps and some nice ranges, all while having an excellent tank. Balancing the beast can seem a little daunting but I think the fix is really straightforward.

My Solution:
Give it a 2nd mid, lol. Now, they can just straight up give it a 2nd mid without changing a thing, but that would be incredibly imbalanced. It doesn't produce Enyo DPS but it does what it can at much better range while having a MUCH MUCH better tank. That an all AFs share the same number of slots, so an extra slot would be broken. They would have to trade a low or high for it. Ideally a low since the high slot is needed for Nos if you even want to dream of an active tank. That's personal preference of course, but passive frig tanks aren't exactly the most ideal in my experience.

4th Bonus:
Simply put, give it a 5% tracking bonus per level.
The ship is pretty solid as is, it just needs another midslot. So basically like a tanking Crusader.



Loosing a low would be a Major Crimp on this ships Armour Tank. I don't typically do PvP, so I'll be looking at this from a PvE Perspective, why do you want a 2nd mid slot?
Typical PvE Setup
Quote:

Damage Control II
Small Armor Repairer II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Capacitor Power Relay II

1MN Afterburner II

4x Medium Beam Laser II
Small Nosferatu II

2x Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I


With current skills 72dps tank, 93dps fire-power and cap stable without AB/NOS, or cap stable with AB/NOS, lasts about 4min with the AB on without NOS.(with all Lvl5 Skills set its 78dps tank, 119dps fire-power)

Now if you want to drop 1 Low Slot in favour for a Mid Slot, I highly recommend, increasing the Power-grid. Otherwise you won't be able to fit squat to this lovely ship.

Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
Posted - 2010.10.26 10:00:00 - [5]
 

Role of afs is to be a superior frigate and they fill this role just fine. Working as intended.

filingo rapongo
Vivicide
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2010.10.26 10:44:00 - [6]
 

stop trolling please

the sig bloom reduction sounds good to avoid some of the incoming dps, not sure about the individual ships but i like the sound of it. let me loose a few of each first Laughing

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2010.10.26 14:23:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Skex Relbore on 26/10/2010 14:26:48
Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal

Quote:
The Enyo
The Enyo is an odd ship, and since I fly it most I have a little more to say about it.
Basically it needs more eHP, dps, and speed/agility. There's no other way around it. The Ishkur does the same damage, has range control, and speed advantage. What purpose does the Enyo serve?

My Solution:
First things first, change the Enyo to a Duvolle ship like the Deimos. It will suit the ship better and hell it may even turn gold.

Give the ship a base speed of 400ms so its faster than an Ishkur, but slower than a Wolf.
Adjust the agility slightly, since it should be much quicker getting up to speed, and unplated it shouldn't be slower to align than a plated Wolf.
Slightly more base armor, I'm talking like 100 armor hitpoints.
A slightly larger capacitor would be much appreciated as well.

Since it's becoming Duvolle that means different bonuses.
- 7.5% tracking stays since it's a 2 mid slot ship (AF Bonus)
- 10% falloff per level (AF bonus)
- 7.5% hybrid damage per level (Frig Bonus)

Not sure why it was optimal since thats caldari, but it doesn't really matter at frigate level. But with 2 mids, falloff serves better since more dps will be applied at point blank, and not at kiting ranges (like the Harpy).

4th Bonus:
5% less cap penalty when fitting mwd. Just like the Deimos. The big big advantage that the Deimos has over say a Thorax & Vigilant, is that it can MWD forever, and use a nos to keep guns and tackle running when being neuted.
I think this will give a much needed edge to the Enyo since it is neut fodder.



Screw changing it to Duvolle the Roden paint job is boss.

IMO what this ship needs is a 3rd mid.

Drop the utility slot to a mid then you can fit full tackle on it and actually keep ships in range to die.

As far as the 4th bonus give it a web velocity bonus. That way it can make things that get close enough stick around to die.

Leave it's agility and speed alone to keep it from being an IWIN ship as long as one could maintain range, but it would be a deadly for anything that gets within web range.

paritybit
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2010.10.26 22:17:00 - [8]
 

Rather than drive interceptor-like capabilities into the assault ships, why not apply a more unique bonus?

For example:

  • A 3%/level signature radius bonus (like the Hyena has); that would still allow for a choice in fittings between afterburner and microwarpdrive. As it stands, the MWD is largely regarded as necessary for flying in null-security space.

  • A 10%/level decrease in powergrid requirements for propulsion modules; this would add some dual propulsion options for ships with enough mids, expand taking options for those without, or just remove the necessity of a micro auxiliary power core in some cases. (and add a constraint that you can't fit an oversized propulsion mod onto a ship)

  • A 10%/level increase to sensor strength to combat how easy it is to jam a frigate in general.


I'm just not a fan of bonuses that cater to a specific fit as I think it further homogenizes the field, which I contend is a bad thing.

I'd even accept a bonus combo: 40% reduction in microwarpdrive signature radius penalty or 30% bonus to afterburner velocity increase factor.

Misanthra
Posted - 2010.10.27 00:18:00 - [9]
 

your jag fixes...I like. given it has the more useful slot layout, its already being used up close and personal with AC anyway making its bonus favoring arty pointless.

Prometheus Exenthal
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2010.10.27 01:51:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Skex Relbore
IMO what this ship needs is a 3rd mid.
Drop the utility slot to a mid then you can fit full tackle on it and actually keep ships in range to die.
As far as the 4th bonus give it a web velocity bonus. That way it can make things that get close enough stick around to die.
Leave it's agility and speed alone to keep it from being an IWIN ship as long as one could maintain range, but it would be a deadly for anything that gets within web range.

What you're asking for is not Gallente.
The ship doesn't need a 3rd mid. An Enyo such as this will be putting out roughly 200dps at 8km using null.
That utility high is what will make the ship great, so don't knock it until you try it.

Originally by: paritybit
Rather than drive interceptor-like capabilities into the assault ships, why not apply a more unique bonus?
For example:

  • A 3%/level signature radius bonus (like the Hyena has); that would still allow for a choice in fittings between afterburner and microwarpdrive. As it stands, the MWD is largely regarded as necessary for flying in null-security space.

  • A 10%/level decrease in powergrid requirements for propulsion modules; this would add some dual propulsion options for ships with enough mids, expand taking options for those without, or just remove the necessity of a micro auxiliary power core in some cases. (and add a constraint that you can't fit an oversized propulsion mod onto a ship)

  • A 10%/level increase to sensor strength to combat how easy it is to jam a frigate in general.


I'm just not a fan of bonuses that cater to a specific fit as I think it further homogenizes the field, which I contend is a bad thing.

I'd even accept a bonus combo: 40% reduction in microwarpdrive signature radius penalty or 30% bonus to afterburner velocity increase factor.

- The point of the sig rad bonus is that it's not a per-level bonus. It just exists like interceptors get a point range/cap bonus.
- Nothing is stopping you from fitting an afterburner to your ship. Many ships get bonuses to MWD related things, and people still fit afterburners (ie; interceptors).
- A 10% decrease in powergrid need for propulsion mods would not benefit the ships in any way since they will still be fat pigs that get one vollied. AFs are slow with afterburners, and overpowered when they got that bonus.
Simply put, a MWD bonus is the way to go.
- An increase to sensor strength is completely out of the question because it is useless unless made overpowered. If a BC with 30+ strength still gets jammed, then an AF with 15 will doubly so
- Any velocity bonus specifically directed at afterburners is overpowered. If you need me to explain to you why it is, you shouldn't even be commenting on my suggestions.

The bonuses do not dictate what you have to fit, they actually increase the number of options you can use.
Right now a MWD is totally out of the question to fit because the ships are slow and extremely large. By reducing that penalty the ships because usable on the battlefield while not becoming overpowered. There is no penalty for fitting an afterburner, and giving a reduction to the MWD sig bloom has no relation to the effectiveness of an AB fit frigate.

Yankunytjatjara
Amarr
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2010.10.27 13:57:00 - [11]
 

I agree with the need of a fifth bonus. I disagree with the proposal above, it's well thought out but results in less variety.

Add flavour instead. Eve already seems to have a characteristic in which every race is the best counter against itself: missiles vs ecm, webs and TPs vs speed, scram vs mwd/damps vs rails, and obviously neuts and TDs vs lazorz. So, make the fifth bonus a counter to the counter: because frigs are particularly harmed by their race's specific counters. Assigning a bonus instead of the other where they're differently good, a better balance can be achieved as a side product.

The Retribution
Unaffected by TD
(I agree with the further need of the second mid at the expense of another slot)

The Vengeance
Unaffected by neuts

The Harpy and the Hawk
Unaffected by ECM

The Enyo
Unaffected by scram's MWD shutdown effect

The ishkur
Unaffected by RSDs

The Wolf
Unaffected by webs

The Jaguar
Unaffected by TPs

The jaguar is a great ship, a minor bonus such as the one I propose will make for a better balance. Same with the ishkur. Harpy has its role, and hawk is getting a boost. With this proposal, the ships that need the biggest boost get a more important bonus.

So, in my opinion this fix makes the AFs very balanced, while maintaining great flavour.
It also has two distinct advantages:
  • it's simpler. Simple stuff gets done sooner.

  • CCP can't really muddle too much with it. Look at the rockets: after more than one year of the famous thread, where every option had been carefully analyzed and the perfect solution basically given them, they ignored it and went on like elephants after probably a 5' meeting of two guys at the coffee machine.
Guess what would happen with your (otherwise really perfectly thought out) proposal?

Kraschyn Thek'athor
Posted - 2010.10.27 14:49:00 - [12]
 

In my opinion,
- Slotlayout redesigning
- a fourth boni in form of a defensive bonus.
- a rolebonus

Being superior to other frigs... is tactically not relevant.
There are not enough frig-only fights.

In my opinion, a +2 warp strenght bonus like the Transporters.
Overpowered?
It would give us a shipclass to form Vanguards for fleets with the ships
having an chance of disengaging from the enemy.
As other ships don't have this bonus, it would favor assault frig only gangs,
similar to hac only or SB only gangs.
Since dps and tanking capabilities are not over the top, and the ships role is not easily to combine with other vessel classes, it should not become a balancing problem.

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2010.10.27 18:15:00 - [13]
 

TBH I think the problem with assault frigates is neut proliferation, everyone runs a neut and a neuted enyo is a dead enyo, my idea for the fourth bonus on all assault frigates is "15% resistance to neutralizer effectiveness"

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.10.27 18:31:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Sigras
TBH I think the problem with assault frigates is neut proliferation, everyone runs a neut and a neuted enyo is a dead enyo, my idea for the fourth bonus on all assault frigates is "15% resistance to neutralizer effectiveness"


that would make buffer tanked AFs overpowered. especially if they dont need cap for weapons. you would mostly see matari AFs or maybe some harpies/vengs. given the limited speed reduction from webs nowadays, neut is one of the few things that help you killing smaller ships (be it AFs or HACs).

to the OP... i think for the retribution trading an high for a mid would be the best. (was discussed in another thread already and got quite some support, but dont ask me where, atm)

Prometheus Exenthal
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2010.10.28 06:43:00 - [15]
 

@ Yankunytjatjara
As I it was discussed on SHC, EWAR immunity is not the way to go

@ Sigras
Neuts are the only way to TRULY kill AFs. If they are under your guns you are boned, so neuts help balance that immensely.

@ Kraschyn Thek'athor
+2 Stab strength it useless and doesn't benefit the ships at all. All it mean is that you got away from ships that you shouldn't have to run from to begin with.
The whole point is not to be better against other frigates. They already do that. The problem is their usability, survivability, and balance among the other frigates that can do their job much much better.

RiskyFrisky
Interrobang Inc.
Posted - 2010.10.28 13:01:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: RiskyFrisky on 28/10/2010 13:06:05
Edited by: RiskyFrisky on 28/10/2010 13:03:06
Don't even think about changing my Jaguar, it's perfectly fine as is and doesn't need its stats ****ed. What you're suggesting to do to it will end with a shield nerf and royally **** the thing over, just because you want some extra dps and falloff.

Hiedi Jarret
Posted - 2010.10.28 13:54:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal
The whole point is not to be better against other frigates. They already do that. The problem is their usability, survivability, and balance among the other frigates that can do their job much much better.


Can you flesh this idea out more? Are you saying that Interceptors tackle much much better and therefore AF's need a boost? Are you saying that faction frigs are better at the solo/ frig gang niche (and therefore AF's need a boost)? I guess I am asking what it is that you think an AF's job is and what ships are currently better at that job.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2010.10.28 14:22:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 28/10/2010 14:30:45

4th bonus and go from there.

Seriously, Assault Ships are not even remotely in line with Heavy Assault Ships, being the 'assault' variant of a tech1 hull.
So how could they possibly be balanced?

HACs have 4 bonuses and are faster, compared to their t1 counterparts.
ASs have 3 bonuses and are generally slower than their t1 counterparts.

To give a small example:

Omen
181 m/sec, 11,650,000 kg
Zealot
209 m/sec, 12,580,000 kg (roughly 8% more mass)

Punisher
287 m/sec, 1,047,000 kg
Retribution
278 m/sec, 1,171,000 kg (roughly 11,8% more mass)

As you can see, the HAC has a bit more mass, but higher base speed than the t1 cruiser.
The AS has a bit more mass, but lower base speed than the t1 frigate.
And even HACs aren't unchallenged in their roles and uses. So how could Assault ships, considering the relatively scarce use of small ships, be viable at the present state? It's no wonder.

The only Assault Ships I can see which are reasonably often used are the Minmatar ones. Guess what why? (Although they have an awful high mass, even for AS standards)


Assault ships need the fourth bonus they are lacking, and a slight speed boost (without making Minmatar AS's too powerful).
Then the devs can wait and watch for a while before re-evaluating their usefulness again.
Because that's how As's should have been from the beginning.


Role
Let's again take a look at their big cousins. Do HACs have a definite role? I don't think so. They do what they do. They can do a lot of things. It all depends on your fitting. But it basically all revolts around superior damage and same speed or same damage and superior speed compared to the enemy.
I think it wouldn't hurt if Assault Ships could fit into the same scheme. To a certain degree they can do that even now, but it's not really pronounced and thus attractive enough, because they are too easily countered and the damage isn't enough to punch through todays huge buffer tanks.
A buff to their abilities in the form of a tad more speed and an extra bonus might make them attractive enough.
As a positive side-effect, strong Assault Ships would be an incentive for early PvP and small gangs.

If everybody thinks AS's totally need a special role, then my first thought is: Anti Fighter and Fighter-Bomber!
There, you read it here first.
It would be a beautiful role, kinda completing the circle of life and death, or rock, paper, scissors, if you prefer that one.
Of course on the condition that supercarriers stay the way they are and lag finally gets fixed.

Prometheus Exenthal
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2010.10.28 20:55:00 - [19]
 

null
Originally by: Hiedi Jarret
Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal
The whole point is not to be better against other frigates. They already do that. The problem is their usability, survivability, and balance among the other frigates that can do their job much much better.


Can you flesh this idea out more? Are you saying that Interceptors tackle much much better and therefore AF's need a boost? Are you saying that faction frigs are better at the solo/ frig gang niche (and therefore AF's need a boost)? I guess I am asking what it is that you think an AF's job is and what ships are currently better at that job.


AFs do not excel at anything.
Interceptors have speed, agility, and tackle bonuses. That is their job.
Empire faction ships are extensions of the T1 line in the sense that they do what an AF or inty can do on a lesser scale.
Pirate factions are the same but they combine races to change up the flavour.

AF on the other hand don't really do anything well. They are extremely sluggish and huge. Thier ability to take on other frigates is unquestionable, but as soon as you have a larger Target the glaring signature, capacitor, agility, and dps issues arise.

The goal isn't to make them so amazing that t1, faction and the other t2 are useless, but to make them usable for something other than pointless pve (not something to balance off off) and insurance payouts.

Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
Posted - 2010.10.28 20:57:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal
null
Originally by: Hiedi Jarret
Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal
The whole point is not to be better against other frigates. They already do that. The problem is their usability, survivability, and balance among the other frigates that can do their job much much better.


Can you flesh this idea out more? Are you saying that Interceptors tackle much much better and therefore AF's need a boost? Are you saying that faction frigs are better at the solo/ frig gang niche (and therefore AF's need a boost)? I guess I am asking what it is that you think an AF's job is and what ships are currently better at that job.
AF on the other hand don't really do anything well. They are extremely sluggish and huge. Thier ability to take on other frigates is unquestionable, but as soon as you have a larger Target the glaring signature, capacitor, agility, and dps issues arise.
Because that is they role ? To be superior to frigates ? Read up a bit.

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2010.10.28 21:51:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Zarnak Wulf on 28/10/2010 21:53:18
The tier 3 frigates of each race have 10 slots.
  • Tristan - 4-3-3
  • Punisher - 4-2-4
  • Rifter - 4-3-3
  • Kestrel - 4-3-3

Assault frigate versions of these ships add on all of ONE slot to the basic versions. (Except for the ishkur - it just gets a giant drone bay instead.) On certain ships slots are stripped away and put somewhere else in order to give "variety." Retribution? Enyo? Wolf? The results are less then hoped for. At the very least they're completely different then T1 frigate experience.

Give all AFs except the ishkur a 12th slot. Caldari AF should regain their third low - hawk AND harpy. Enyo, wolf, and ret get another mid. Give the ishkur and jaguar an extra low.

The ships start to look better already. Now give them their missing bonus. The Minmatar AF's should both get a tracking bonus. I do think that the optimal/falloff bonus should be swapped - however unlike the OP I want one of the damn things to have an optimal bonus!

Something like the enyo? Give it a 2nd 5%dmg / lvl bonus. Lose the 5m^3 drone bay. It's annoying to deal with anyways. The other ships should be easy to fill in...

Tosi
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.10.29 01:17:00 - [22]
 

nice ideas Prometheus, hope ccp checks them out ;P

Prometheus Exenthal
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2010.10.29 01:57:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Valandril
Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal
null
Originally by: Hiedi Jarret
Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal
The whole point is not to be better against other frigates. They already do that. The problem is their usability, survivability, and balance among the other frigates that can do their job much much better.


Can you flesh this idea out more? Are you saying that Interceptors tackle much much better and therefore AF's need a boost? Are you saying that faction frigs are better at the solo/ frig gang niche (and therefore AF's need a boost)? I guess I am asking what it is that you think an AF's job is and what ships are currently better at that job.
AF on the other hand don't really do anything well. They are extremely sluggish and huge. Thier ability to take on other frigates is unquestionable, but as soon as you have a larger Target the glaring signature, capacitor, agility, and dps issues arise.
Because that is they role ? To be superior to frigates ? Read up a bit.

I don't see what's so hard to comprehend Confused

Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
Posted - 2010.10.29 03:39:00 - [24]
 

I would love to use my wolf for something other than ratting in 0.0 when I get the urge to fix my sec status.

Anything to un-suck it has my vote.

Hiedi Jarret
Posted - 2010.10.29 14:19:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal
AF on the other hand don't really do anything well. They are extremely sluggish and huge. Thier ability to take on other frigates is unquestionable, but as soon as you have a larger Target the glaring signature, capacitor, agility, and dps issues arise.


First, I dont have a problem with the MWD bonus.

THe problem I do have is that by making single AF's excel at killing larger ships reliably and "before ze ger...blob" we begin to lose the reasons to fly larger ships. If we can have all the advantages of a frig while gaining the target pool (which has historically been a major inherent drawback of frigs) of a cruiser, why fly the cruiser?


Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2010.10.29 15:55:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Hiedi Jarret

THe problem I do have is that by making single AF's excel at killing larger ships reliably and "before ze ger...blob" we begin to lose the reasons to fly larger ships. If we can have all the advantages of a frig while gaining the target pool (which has historically been a major inherent drawback of frigs) of a cruiser, why fly the cruiser?




This subject of cruisers comes up quite a bit when discussing buffs for AF. What cruisers exactly are you worried about losing their roles? The mining cruisers? The e-war cruisers? The tier system leaves quite a few as Laughing

Let's compare the Stabber and the Rupture to the wolf. The stabber is slightly faster. It has 18k EHP to the wolf's 5k EHP. (gank setup). The wolf gank setup does almost the same amount of DPS and has the same range due to it's falloff bonus. It's setup dependent but they're pretty close.

The Rupture however completely blows the wolf away. DPS is well beyond the gank wolf's. 180's, assault launchers/ small nuets, and 40k EHP would end the wolf pretty fast.

If you set up an AF for pure gank you can approach and even surpass the 300 DPS mark. You're a glass cannon. You can't go toe to toe w/ anything for very long. If you have any kind of tank then you're looking at 250ish DPS - and that's not threatening the tier 3 cruisers at all.

Prometheus Exenthal
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2010.10.29 16:43:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Hiedi Jarret
Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal
AF on the other hand don't really do anything well. They are extremely sluggish and huge. Thier ability to take on other frigates is unquestionable, but as soon as you have a larger Target the glaring signature, capacitor, agility, and dps issues arise.


First, I dont have a problem with the MWD bonus.

THe problem I do have is that by making single AF's excel at killing larger ships reliably and "before ze ger...blob" we begin to lose the reasons to fly larger ships. If we can have all the advantages of a frig while gaining the target pool (which has historically been a major inherent drawback of frigs) of a cruiser, why fly the cruiser?


This is why I am against giving these ships any type of immunity or ab bonus.
They are still vulnerable to big ships, but at least this time they have a chance.

Manfred Rickenbocker
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2010.10.29 18:16:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Manfred Rickenbocker on 29/10/2010 18:17:40
These proposals seem good (why all the hate for the Ishkur?) however my curiosity comes into play: if the problem with assault frigates is being webbed and neuted, why not just address that? The reason CCP offered up the AB bonus was to counter the MWD shutoff effect and offer a propulsion mod that performs better vs. neuts. Yes, if an AF gets under your tracking you are screwed, but thats kinda the point because they are ASSAULT frigates. They dont have the DPS to break a proper tank (or drop a buffer quickly) and currently the game lacks a role for a small ship to get within the deathzone (i.e. neut/scram/web range) and do DPS with relative safety; even interceptors still maintain decent ranges to their victims with their long range points.

Why are assault frigs unkillable if you give them a neut/nos and maybe a web resistance bonus? With low eHP, drones will still shred them. They have low cap to begin with, so even a with high, non-100%, resistance, neuts will seriously hamper them. Interceptors can still kite them and kill them. Destroyers will do what they do best and mash them into goo. T1 frigates/cruisers will be lunch, but they are mostly cannon-fodder anyway. So can you detail what the problem is please? If the problem is gangs of them running around, that sounds perfectly fine. They are ASSAULT frigates afterall. Focus fire and pop them one by one as if they were any other ship.

Prometheus Exenthal
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2010.10.29 19:49:00 - [29]
 

The problem with a web resistance or neut or ab bonus is that AFs will become very hard to kill with just about anything cruiser and up.
When you have ships that already are capable of good tanks, and then give them immunity to a webifier OR bonus to afterburners, you're really asking for trouble.

Keep in mind that missile boats already require a web and already have trouble hitting AB frigates, let alone tanking ones.
Also keep in mind that turret tracking is really bad when it comes to tanky ships that orbit under guns.

A neut doesn't do much since many ships are capable of running off a nos to maintain tackle, and in addition to that an AB bonus would circumvent the need for a web and any 3rd mids can be used for injection.

As for drones, its true that they can be trouble but when paired with your suggestions and the ships already tanking nature, they can certainly tank drones long enough to kill them and then the target.

The DPS is a non-issue because the majority of eve doesn't know what solo is (or assumes alts still count as solo), and they WILL be blobbing in AFs.

The only real counter to AFs (with your suggestion) is ecm. A mechanic called ****ing bull**** by many (including myself) would be your main deterrent.
The last thing eve needs is a reason to carry more ecm Rolling Eyes

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2010.10.29 20:17:00 - [30]
 

MWDs in nullsec are not as popular as they once were. The signature radius bloom will get ships killed by fighter bombers (MWD'ing BS) or - more likely - by stealth bombers. Afterburners are becoming alot more popular for this reason. AHAC gangs use afterburners entirely for example. And they tear up BS fleets quite well. A zealot with 40k EHP that goes a staggering Rolling Eyes 511m/s can not be tracked by BS guns fast enough to be killed before the 10+ guardians start to rep it. Fleets have probes. The AHAC gang lands directly ontop of the BS gang and...

Are BS fleets obsolete? I don't think so. The machine gun after all didn't obsolete infantry - just human wave assaults. In the same way I think that RR Battleships are done. You need those utility slots for nuets. Spread out to lessen the enemies transversal.

And that gets us back to AF. AB at close to 1km/s is good enough in the current environment. Nuets and webs will still kill them and that's appropriate. Target painters may even start to appear in greater numbers on the scene. Shocked



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