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Xiozor
THE PAROXYSM
Dark Solar Empire
Posted - 2010.10.25 17:32:00 - [1]
 

I was flying a blaster Megathron earlier today and get a fight against a Hurricane which undocks. I web/scramble him and open up with a chorus of 7 Neutron blaster cannons. First shot knocks down his shields, next pushing hard into armour. But then he picks up a bit of speed in the right direction and my shots start missing. Ogre II's are still chewing through him but it's going to be too close to call, especially if even a little bit of backup arrives, so I return my drone, de-aggress and dock.

This is part of a wider problem to do with blasters, and I think that the closer a target is to you, the stronger the web effect should be and the further away they are the weaker it should be. When a Blasterboat gets ontop of you, which is a difficult place for a blasterboat to get in the first place, simply running circles round their guns due to their mediocre tracking should just not be an option.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.10.25 17:37:00 - [2]
 

…you were fighting a smaller target with too large guns. It's kind of intended.

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2010.10.25 18:15:00 - [3]
 

Maybe you should have committed to the fight and learned something. Clearly you are incompetent presently.

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2010.10.25 18:16:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Sader Rykane on 25/10/2010 18:19:19
Originally by: Tippia
…you were fighting a smaller target with too large guns. It's kind of intended.


Well, he did have it webbed, and its a Battlecruiser, so I can see why he'd be a little dismayed.

Originally by: Lady Spank
Maybe you should have committed to the fight and learned something. Clearly you are incompetent presently.


Why exactly? He gauged a fight as too risky because the return from a hurricane would be probably be minimal. Sticking around and opening yourself up to a larger fight you were not equipped to win is a stupid idea. I'de say he acted rather intelligently.

Rhinanna
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.10.25 18:45:00 - [5]
 

And you are complaining because you can't pwn anything that gets close?

I can do the same thing to any BS in a speed fit 'cane. Why should the mega be any different?

Tracking on the mega is one of the BEST on any BS and you still think it should be better? The whole point is smaller ships is to get under the guns of larger ships and do EXACTLY what he did to you. What do you expect anyone in smaller ships to do? Stay at range where BS's longer range is even more effective? Just die and be awed by the fact you can fly a BS?

And the mega has a big advantage over the 'cane when flown well, you just have to do it right, I'll let you work out how Twisted Evil

Seriously, Think then post please.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.10.25 18:46:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Sader Rykane
Well, he did have it webbed, and its a Battlecruiser, so I can see why he'd be a little dismayed.
End result: he had a target that was as easy or difficult to track as a non-webbed BS, but which moves in ways a battleship can't, thus evading the guns (still) as intended.

Bigger guns vs. smaller ship = bad idea. That's a good thing. Fancy piloting would have helped, and making that a factor, rather than how many things you can activate on the enemy at once, is also a good thing.

Hentes Zsemle
Posted - 2010.10.25 18:49:00 - [7]
 

Webbed and scrambled, and a battlecruiser... that means it was going like 100 meters a sec around the battleship's optimal, and it could speedtank it.
No, its not working as intended.

Snowmann
Posted - 2010.10.25 18:52:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Hentes Zsemle
Webbed and scrambled, and a battlecruiser... that means it was going like 100 meters a sec around the battleship's optimal, and it could speedtank it.
No, its not working as intended.


It's a Minnie ship. Should have had it Target Painted as well due there smaller sig.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.10.25 19:02:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Hentes Zsemle
Webbed and scrambled, and a battlecruiser... that means it was going like 100 meters a sec around the battleship's optimal, and it could speedtank it.
No, its not working as intended.
Why not? Just because he couldn't adjust for what was probably a measly 0.2 rad/s effective angular velocity…

Again, what's so hard to understand about bigger guns + smaller target = bad idea? It's there to purposefully give those smaller targets an edge over the bigger ones.

PHoneix NOir
Posted - 2010.10.25 19:05:00 - [10]
 

Try:

Downgrading to Ion Blaster Cannons for improved tracking

Make sure you use close range ammo (caldari navy antimatter) for no tracking penalties

Fit a large Neut to drain their cap

take a tracking enhancing booster, i forget which one it is though.

else, train your gunnery/bs skills higher

GL o/

PS - you can also move yourself to reduce transversal

Aiwha
Caldari
101st Space Marine Force
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.10.25 20:01:00 - [11]
 

Kick on your MWD and start moving towards him, this will screw with his orbit.

Aylara
Posted - 2010.10.25 20:21:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Tippia
…you were fighting a smaller target with too large guns. It's kind of intended.


TBH, I think nobody should have problems tracking webbed ships 1 class smaller with close range weapons and ammo. Frigates < cruisers < battlecruisers < battleships, that's the progression and motivation to fly bigger ships, to kill same/1 class lower ships(easier), not just tank-ability.

Makes sense though, that cruisers should be able to evade high tier large guns and frigates high tier medium guns if fitted for that.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2010.10.25 20:25:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Hentes Zsemle
Webbed and scrambled, and a battlecruiser... that means it was going like 100 meters a sec around the battleship's optimal, and it could speedtank it.
No, its not working as intended.


And 100 m/s is about the speed that a plated mega gets. Even if the mega is webbed he is going ~50 m/s which means you can cut the transversal of the hurricane down to nothing or next to nothing and get near perfect hits.

Yes, if you just sit there and expect to wtfpwn anything with large blasters you need to find a timemachine back to 2007. In 2010 you need to actually worry about transversal in blaster ships just like you do with every other ship. Learn to play, noob.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.10.25 20:29:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 25/10/2010 20:33:07
Originally by: Aylara
Frigates < cruisers < battlecruisers < battleships, that's the progression and motivation to fly bigger ships, to kill same/1 class lower ships(easier), not just tank-ability.
That's just it: this is EVE — there is no progression, and bigger isn't better (or, rather, if bigger is better, it is broken and you should start bracing yourself for the nerf).

The only relationship that matters is that frigs ≠ crisers ≠ BCs ≠ BSes.

The motivation for flying bigger ships is that they can perform different roles — the exact same motivation as for flying smaller ships. Without the ability to completely turn the relationship you describe on its head, all we have are ships that completely obsolete the previous layer, and that's just good old lazy design for simpletons.

EVE doesn't do it that way, and that's why EVE is a better game than most.

Oh, and as others have pointed out…
Quote:
I think nobody should have problems tracking webbed ships 1 class smaller with close range weapons and ammo.
…the only reason he had this problem is because he failed at flying his ship. The game does not need to (and most certainly should not) be changed just to accommodate this silly failure on his part.

masternerdguy
Gallente
Meerkat Maner
Posted - 2010.10.25 20:56:00 - [15]
 

Your doing it wrong!
You should be in the hurricane

http://valor.truthonly.com/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9460

Hurricane > BS turrets

Hellsmoke
Posted - 2010.10.25 20:56:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Tippia
the only reason he had this problem is because he failed at flying his ship. The game does not need to (and most certainly should not) be changed just to accommodate this silly failure on his part.


Right,and all the other threads on "fix blasters" are all doing it wrong too right?Everything you say in this thread is stupid even though it sounds like you believe it yourself,and that your enjoying life.If ccp put out a doomsday mod for frigs you'd be saying working as intended.A good skilled bs should wreck a bc anyday.The mega only has a few options when it comes to fittings.You need the web,you need the scram,you need the mwd and you need the cap injector.Period.

And in low you need the slots for dps and tank.There is no room to put a tracking mod on a ship that is supposed to have a tracking bonus.It needs to be fixed.Infact the whole Gallente concept needs to be fixed.

That blaster boats need a fix is well known so qft and wait around and see if they dont fix that after so many complain,even people who dont fly them agree.

Aylara
Posted - 2010.10.25 21:03:00 - [17]
 

Yeah, I should have been more explicit in describing the class relationship, I though the second paragraph would take care of that: frigates < cruisers < battlecruisers < battleships but frigates ∤ battlecruisers ∧ battleships and cruisers ∤ battleships.

When EVE got bigger and devs thought how to expand the ship classes, differently from what was previously developed, they came with "roles" and that's where T2 and now T3 fit in. But T1 didn't change and retain the simple purpose they first had: kill easier 1 class smaller ships but have problems killing 2 class smaller ships.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.10.25 21:07:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Hellsmoke
Right,and all the other threads on "fix blasters" are all doing it wrong too right?
Most other threads include more sensible scenarios than one that demonstrates the deliberate scaling between larger guns and smaller targets… oh, and they tend to focus on buffing the range, not the tracking. Care to make a guess why?
Quote:
Everything you say in this thread is stupid
So you agree, then, seeing as how you can offer no counter-argument.
Quote:
If ccp put out a doomsday mod for frigs you'd be saying working as intended.
No. That's just you projecting.
Quote:
A good skilled bs should wreck a bc anyday.
Exactly. They can. The problem here is that the OP failed to apply his skills — the scenario presented tells us exactly zero about the issues that exist with blasters.
Quote:
The mega only has a few options when it comes to fittings.You need the web,you need the scram,you need the mwd and you need the cap injector.Period.

And in low you need the slots for dps and tank.There is no room to put a tracking mod on a ship that is supposed to have a tracking bonus.
"Supposed to"? It has a tracking bonus — no "supposed" there. Oh, I don't know if you noticed, but you just proved that there is room for tracking mods…

This, however, doesn't change the fact that he was using the wrong size guns for the target he was going after. And again, no tracking bonus in the world will help you if you aren't flying the ship properly.

Steve Celeste
Overdogs
Posted - 2010.10.25 21:10:00 - [19]
 

OP trained gallente HAHAHAHAHAAAA


*points and laughs

Jennifer Starling
Amarr
Posted - 2010.10.25 21:15:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/10/2010 21:20:36
Originally by: Vaal Erit
And 100 m/s is about the speed that a plated mega gets. Even if the mega is webbed he is going ~50 m/s which means you can cut the transversal of the hurricane down to nothing or next to nothing and get near perfect hits.

Yes, if you just sit there and expect to wtfpwn anything with large blasters you need to find a timemachine back to 2007. In 2010 you need to actually worry about transversal in blaster ships just like you do with every other ship. Learn to play, noob.

That's good advice.

Yesterday I was fighting a 'Geddon in my (shield nano) Hurricane and I noticed the same thing. At very close range while orbiting, the megapulses hardly could get a decent hit, even with 2xTE and a TP. I was really surprised (I'm not complaining, though Wink)

Well so you see, you're learning something every day ...

Yuki Kulotsuki
Posted - 2010.10.25 21:17:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Hellsmoke
That blaster boats need a fix is well known so qft...
I don't think that means what you think it means

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.10.25 21:21:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 25/10/2010 21:22:49
Let's get some perspective here.

-He was flying with large neutron blasters, the worst-tracking large blasters available.

-You were using the closest ranged ammo. Close range makes it harder to track stuff

-You presumably did not have any modules to increase your tracking fitted (TCs, TEs, and/or target painters) except one web.

You seem to think that a single web should mean that everything always tracks all the time. You aren't even *****ing that you were losing, you are complaining that you weren't winning fast enough.

Hellsmoke
Posted - 2010.10.25 21:39:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Hellsmoke on 25/10/2010 21:44:08
Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki
Originally by: Hellsmoke
That blaster boats need a fix is well known so qft...
I don't think that means what you think it means


I dont care what they do,but as is blaster boats need help.Thats their problem to figure out how.Or does ccp pay me to play?

Im not saying make them pwn mobiles,but any one who has been in eve long enough and knows his stuff,knows that blasters need some fixing.Doesn't have to be blasters that get a buff,but gallente as is needs to be looked at again.Just like their destroyer has been lopsided for years.Its no secret that this game is full of faults,if I take my time I can name around 50 of them that I see daily.And Im not talking things I would change,but things that bug out or are just done really sloppy and forgotten.

Not saying eve isnt the best around,just really far from perfect.

Originally by: Steve Celeste
OP trained gallente HAHAHAHAHAAAA


*points and laughs


Exactly what most people are thinking tbh.Point proven.

XIRUSPHERE
Gallente
Deadly Intent.
Posted - 2010.10.26 01:27:00 - [24]
 

You can pop small targets if you appease the transversal gods. I also always carry a standard drop booster in my mega for those situations where you need the extra tracking.

A decent tactic is to do a mwd pulse away from the target and let him think he can leave web/scram range, pilots tend to try to straight line away at that point, dropping transversal and resulting in them getting popped. Worked like a charm on a vaga.

Jennifer Starling
Amarr
Posted - 2010.10.26 08:59:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 26/10/2010 09:02:04
Originally by: Hellsmoke
I dont care what they do, but as is blaster boats need help. Thats their problem to figure out how. Or does ccp pay me to play?

The OP's problem is a tracking issue, not a blasters problem. Projectile turrets and lasers have exact the same problem in this situation. To solve the problem the OP should learn how to deal with it, there's been given plenty of good advice to help him get around it.

CCP Spitfire


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.10.26 10:39:00 - [26]
 

Moved from 'EVE General Discussion'.


Dr Fighter
Posted - 2010.10.26 10:42:00 - [27]
 

moar webs?

Avithren
Posted - 2010.10.26 12:57:00 - [28]
 

So, OP's argument: bigger ships should always win against smaller ships.

Boy, is he in for a rough ride...


HeIIfire11
Posted - 2010.10.26 13:35:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Avithren
So, OP's argument: bigger ships should always win against smaller ships.

Boy, is he in for a rough ride...




No,hes saying that his ship should be able to hit a ship class one size smaller than his.Which I agree with.I could understand if it was a cruiser or smaller.but even that is a broken game machanic in my opinion.It sucks when your in a battleship,sitting there like a beached whale,getting eaten by some frigates.Why even train up battleships then?

Naomi Wildfire
Amarr
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.10.26 13:50:00 - [30]
 

How bout learn something about tracking and not sit like a duck. Reducing transversal speed should help hitting targets smaller your size, or fit another web/painter.


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