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Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2010.10.23 22:43:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
it's fine on a small scale, and the op is being ridiculous, but when a frigate bumps a mothership. I cry.


this is So Not a Important Priority, there are many more Essential features that need to be dealt with first, like Rockets!

besides i don't follow capitals much!

Flinx Evenstar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.10.23 22:43:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 23/10/2010 22:46:41
Originally by: MotherMoon


if eve ships when bumped instead moved in a direction, but keep facing the same direction, I would be happy.




That would make even less sense than the lack of destruction to a light weight, high speed object hitting a heavy one.

If someone bumped you from head on, you would not expect to keep going forward. Objects like to spin about their axis, it's the path of least resistance, bumping makes ships turn about center of gravity. If you hit them in the center, you apply a vector.

The physics in eve may be fluid dynamics with perfect elastic collisions, but it's not crazy.

Edit: As a bitter vet myself, I have not yet heard the bumping made me want to quit reason yet. Plenty of others, but not that one.

Come back to us Mothermoon

Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2010.10.23 22:47:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Alara IonStorm on 23/10/2010 22:50:41
Originally by: Flinx Evenstar
That would make even less sense than the lack of destruction to a light weight, high speed object hitting a heavy one.

If someone bumped you from head on, you would not expect to keep going forward. Objects like to spin about their axis, it's the path of least resistance, bumping makes ships turn about center of gravity. If you hit them in the center, you apply a vector.

The physics in eve may be fluid dynamics with perfect elastic collisions, but it's not crazy.

Which is why the objects never touch.

The whole story behind bumping is that when a ship detects an object that is too close it automatically fires emergency thrusters.

Nothing in this game actually bumps.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2010.10.23 22:47:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 23/10/2010 22:50:46
Originally by: Flinx Evenstar
Originally by: MotherMoon


if eve ships when bumped instead moved in a direction, but keep facing the same direction, I would be happy.




That would make even less sense than the lack of destruction to a light weight, high speed object hitting a heavy one.

If someone bumped you from head on, you would not expect to keep going forward. Objects like to spin about their axis, it's the path of least resistance, bumping makes ships turn about center of gravity. If you hit them in the center, you apply a vector.

The physics in eve may be fluid dynamics with perfect elastic collisions, but it's not crazy.


but after it goes up from being hit, it tries to rubber band itself back and then it waddles like a seesaw.

Quote:
Which is why the objects never touch. The whole story behind bumping is that when a ship detects an object that is to close it automatically fires emergency thrusters. Nothing in this game acually bumps.


right. Forgot about that. So if the ships just moved on a Z axis instead of rotating it would make more sense. the ships would just automatically remap movement to avoid each other, but continue to move in the same direction.

okst666
Posted - 2010.10.23 22:57:00 - [35]
 

a) collision detection is total broken!

b) ships should get broken/destroyed as they collide!

Grog Barrel
Posted - 2010.10.23 23:04:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Grog Barrel on 23/10/2010 23:09:28
Edited by: Grog Barrel on 23/10/2010 23:06:54
I'd rather see some kind of penalty for both ships when they collide.
Ships should, in my opinion, get some little amount of hull damage or temporal random module disabling by bumping eachother for the sake of immersion.

God ****ing damned crap, you are flying a freaking, almost 1 kilometer long, heavy ship (if you fly BS) straight against another one at a speed of 500m/s, dont tell me there is not going to happen anything but a motion similar to what would be two blind blue whales trying to reproduce.

Bumping should be something you try to avoid mostly and/or use it only in case you got some kamikaze or "last stand" ideas in mind.

edit: greatest ship would get of course way less damage/modules disabled than then smaller one in case they are different sized.




Flinx Evenstar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.10.23 23:15:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 23/10/2010 23:19:50
Originally by: MotherMoon

but after it goes up from being hit, it tries to rubber band itself back and then it waddles like a seesaw.




getting stuck on a pos shield or roid or station and doing the wobble dance is when you know the game was coded by CCP.

To be fair to CCP, collision mechanics are horribly complex. I have written apps where at times due to the cpu looking elsewhere, you can cross over a boundary, and hit it on the return. So you get that wobble as it tries to exit the boundary.

heh, I wrote a whole bunch more about cycle time of code to check collisions and how object positions sometimes are not updated in time, then I deleted it realising I was boring myself

Edit: @Grog, think about Jita undock or any mission hub. Not a good a idea to apply collison damage, not realistic, but makes a lot of sense in game terms.

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2010.10.24 01:17:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Tyraeil
Edited by: Tyraeil on 23/10/2010 21:13:56
Quote:
Yeah, other MMOs don't have collision on the players. It's really just a griefing tactic so it makes the game less enjoyable for the majority of players.


QFT

In WoW you can just go through players without any collision, should be the same here.


Eve Online is not World of Warcraft. Eve Online should not strive to be World of Warcraft. Eve should not even be compared with World of Warcraft except for relative levels of polish. If you disagree with this, you are playing the wrong game.

snake driver
Amarr
Posted - 2010.10.24 01:37:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Flinx Evenstar
Originally by: Freyya
1/10 troll.

I'll give you that small vs large ship bumping IS broken and always has been. Don't expect a fix though. Market would crash with all those people not losing ships...


Just going to add that it's KE = 1/2(m v^2). The velocity is more important than the mass as it's squared, with no collision damage, it's not unreasonable that a small fast ship can move a very heavy one. Or that a fast heavy ship like a mach, is a bumping god ;)


I hate to one up your physics, but when two objects collide, kinetic energy is not conserved. Momentum is. Momentum = mass * Velocity. Kinetic energy is usually lost when something small hits something large.

Kinetic energy may help determine how much damage is done in an impact, so if ramming damage were ever added, small fast ships would be godly.

Problem with ramming damage: CONCORD. If ramming damage doesn't attract concord, then expect people to suicide ram in frigs all day long. If it does, then watch everyone die on the amarr and jita undocks. You would have to find some way to make it deliberate and controllable whether you do damage - which would be kinda cool, and would make no sense at all.



The bumping physics are still messed up

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
Posted - 2010.10.24 01:53:00 - [40]
 

CCP programmers have had quite a difficult time giving ships mass.

Hulks warp into a belt and bounce off a rock like they are made of Balsa wood.

A majestic freighter that takes forever to align for warp bounces off a gate like an Indian Rubber ball.

And yes... An Ibis can knock an Avatar out of pre-warp.

There are few things that erk me in this game as much as the collision mechanics. How would I fix it. Just program some mass into them. Can't be all that difficult.

No fly through, no sparks, no damage. Just semi realistic collision mechanics is all I'm after.

Mr Epeen Cool

Flinx Evenstar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.10.24 02:04:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 24/10/2010 02:19:12
Originally by: snake driver

I hate to one up your physics, but when two objects collide, kinetic energy is not conserved. Momentum is. Momentum = mass * Velocity. Kinetic energy is usually lost when something small hits something large.

Kinetic energy may help determine how much damage is done in an impact, so if ramming damage were ever added, small fast ships would be godly.




Don't you give me any of that Newtonian rubbish.

That Kin energy would be lost how? Maybe by converting to heat and ripping itself apart. In a perfect elastic collision none of that happens, which is the world newton loved.

Newtons cradle is a good example of conservation of momentum in theory, but if I throw one of the balls at maybe 700mph, theory says the one at the end flys off at the same speed. Reality says it's a lot of shrapnel.

Edit: I was waiting for the conservation thing, eve doesn't take physics seriously, why should it, it's a game. The collision detection and boundary limits are there for convenience, not to create some kind of mass interaction simulation. You don't want ships flying inside each other, so you need to make some quick and easy rules to avoid that. Bumping is a by product.

and :smileyface: good spot on the m1v1 thing

Haemorto
Posted - 2010.10.24 02:19:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Haemorto on 24/10/2010 02:21:20
Originally by: snake driver


I hate to one up your physics, but when two objects collide, kinetic energy is not conserved. Momentum is. Momentum = mass * Velocity. Kinetic energy is usually lost when something small hits something large.

Kinetic energy may help determine how much damage is done in an impact, so if ramming damage were ever added, small fast ships would be godly.

Problem with ramming damage: CONCORD. If ramming damage doesn't attract concord, then expect people to suicide ram in frigs all day long. If it does, then watch everyone die on the amarr and jita undocks. You would have to find some way to make it deliberate and controllable whether you do damage - which would be kinda cool, and would make no sense at all.



The bumping physics are still messed up


so the simple solution would be that bumping should cause a certain amount of kinetic damage. though this might cause problems as people would just fit specific bumping ships with super high kinetic resists

Riggs Droput
Mad Bombers
Posted - 2010.10.24 02:27:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Haemorto
Edited by: Haemorto on 24/10/2010 02:21:20
Originally by: snake driver


I hate to one up your physics, but when two objects collide, kinetic energy is not conserved. Momentum is. Momentum = mass * Velocity. Kinetic energy is usually lost when something small hits something large.

Kinetic energy may help determine how much damage is done in an impact, so if ramming damage were ever added, small fast ships would be godly.

Problem with ramming damage: CONCORD. If ramming damage doesn't attract concord, then expect people to suicide ram in frigs all day long. If it does, then watch everyone die on the amarr and jita undocks. You would have to find some way to make it deliberate and controllable whether you do damage - which would be kinda cool, and would make no sense at all.



The bumping physics are still messed up


so the simple solution would be that bumping should cause a certain amount of kinetic damage. though this might cause problems as people would just fit specific bumping ships with super high kinetic resists


If people wanted to have a bumping ship and fitted it with high kinetic resists what would be the problem with that. It would give you another option for combat keeping people out of warp and doing damage. I personally think it would be a great idea. You could even come up with a new class of ship that is designed to bump and do damage that way. More variety in this game the better.

And if they have high kinetic resists then all you do is change your ammo type and blast them down with emp or exposive.

Riggs

pacisX
Posted - 2010.10.24 02:52:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: pacisX on 24/10/2010 02:57:14

pacisX
Posted - 2010.10.24 02:54:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: pacisX on 24/10/2010 02:57:04

Sterile Nails
The Scope
Posted - 2010.10.24 03:36:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Alara IonStorm
Bump for a good topic...

Oh wait you don't like that!



lmao Very Happy

Aerilis
Gallente
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.10.24 03:44:00 - [47]
 

Revamp bumping! Collision and sparks and damage, not the slow-mo bubble bouncing we have right now.

Razor Tuna
Posted - 2010.10.24 03:58:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Razor Tuna on 24/10/2010 04:01:36
I want to fit a 100mn on my freighter with my freighter friends and orbit gates sending people flying but I can't. Fix this please.

Kairi Bladewhisper
Posted - 2010.10.24 04:36:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Mastertz
Edited by: Mastertz on 23/10/2010 20:27:13
CCP needs to fix ship collision. Running a ship into another shouldn't move your ship away from a gate or station, it should just go right through. I've lost too many ships to being knocked away from the gate or station I wanted to get to.

At the least CCP should make bumping a petitionable exploit.


You're right. Instead, they should give actual collision physics to the game. Really love that high-tier ship you have? Too bad, several frigates with MWDs and nothing to lose just exploded it by turning themselves into missiles.

Joia Crenca
Posted - 2010.10.24 04:51:00 - [50]
 

Support for the 'make mass count when bumping' idea.

Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Posted - 2010.10.24 05:16:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Mastertz
Edited by: Mastertz on 23/10/2010 20:27:13
CCP needs to fix ship collision. Running a ship into another shouldn't move your ship away from a gate or station, it should just go right through. I've lost too many ships to being knocked away from the gate or station I wanted to get to.

At the least CCP should make bumping a petitionable exploit.


Not until neutral RR in hisec is made a exploit. There is no other way to fight hisec griefers.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2010.10.24 08:50:00 - [52]
 

Wonder how much performance gain there'd be by removing collisions.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.10.24 10:11:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Mag''s on 24/10/2010 10:33:38
Originally by: Alara IonStorm
Originally by: MotherMoon
it's fine on a small scale, and the op is being ridiculous, but when a frigate bumps a mothership. I cry.


this is So Not a Important Priority, there are many more Essential features that need to be dealt with first, like Rockets!

besides i don't follow capitals much!



QFT
I Say lEts sEt the important things right first. We sHould concentrAte on Those and not go beYOnd the Universally recognizeD Issues at hanD.

JeanLuc Blindtard
Posted - 2010.10.24 11:10:00 - [54]
 

Yeah Or they can make guns not shoot people that do not have the secret code that the other ship has :P:P:P these way you can smack in local how they cant shoot you because they dont have the secret code and that you wont tell it to them.

well either that you you LEARN HOW TO NOT GET BUMPED. Yeah its possible...

Asunori
Posted - 2010.10.24 12:38:00 - [55]
 

Bumping should damage both ships, friend or foe. The bigger the size difference, the more damage to the smaller ship.

The big problem would be asteroids. First of all, asteroids are bigger than the graphics ingame show, kinda fail. Second, getting stuck in an asteroid field is sometimes like playing pinball, another fail. With bumping doing damage, you would be dead.

Eve has so much fail, built-in and working as intended.

You would think FAIL is their motto.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.10.24 13:42:00 - [56]
 

I'd still like to hear a suggestion how else people would like to lose their ships.

Would it really be preferable to just blow up from the collision, rather than simply be bumped off course/out of position? Somehow, I doubt that… I got the impression that reducing the chance of a lost ship was the end goal here, or at least putting something in place that can be fought back against.

So what should bumping be replaced with?

Siigari Kitawa
Gallente
Perditus Peregrinus
Posted - 2010.10.24 14:06:00 - [57]
 

While we're at it, let's make Eve operate in LOS conventions! If we damage others when smashing into them let's have our weapons operate on LOS!

No more blobs! "Everybody get into Sphere formation!"

Thread coming later :P

Rastigan
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.10.24 14:32:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Rastigan on 24/10/2010 14:34:02
So according to the no-bumping argument, this shouldnt be able to happen either ? Carrier being bumped: http://www.blackfive.net/photos/uncategorized/2008/07/08/carrier_push_hires_080706n5961c004a.jpg

I didnt realize space had so much friction and gravity to keep things from moving (Even though Eve-space is more like water with colorfull clouds everywhere).


Image changed to URL. Zymurgist

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.10.24 14:38:00 - [59]
 

Just agress the person trying to bump you and they will stop doing it. Works every single time.

Cyprus Black
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.10.24 16:01:00 - [60]
 

So... if someone kills you using a particular method, it's a broken mechanic? Well gee, I better stop using my guns to kill people. Otherwise the OP may complain that it's a broken mechanic as well.


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