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blankseplocked Novel Idea, Multiple Currencies
 
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Zolar V
Posted - 2010.10.20 14:31:00 - [1]
 

Here is a novel idea, when a conglomerate or alliance gets big enough that it has its own sovereignty over a significant amount of space, allow that alliance to then create its own currency. This would allow people to, buy and sell different currencies within the game similar to real world FX markets.

the amount of currency the alliance starts out with should be directly related to the amount of shares within itself that are bought and sold to and by players. The currency exchange between alliances and between your three main factions should be an accurate reflection on the economic state within the entity itself.

For example, lets say Alliance NuBSRuLe, owns a significant amount of space and thus has some economic power over space as a whole. Lets say that its players are building stuff from within the alliance and sell them outside of the alliance. The money that they bring back can be converted into the currency of the alliance, but is also used to determine the economic strength of the alliance itself.

Multiple Currencies will have a very big impact on the political and economic facets of the eve world. It would allow for a more in depth experience, and I believe will bring about a change in the dynamics of warfare for the good.

It would give large alliances a significant hand in the politics of eve. Large alliances have more votes for their nominee for the Council of Interstellar management. And they would have the political power/money to buy votes from other alliances.

Very large alliances will have the ability to create 'embargo' on other alliances, simply by curtailing the injection of its economy from sales and such into both the enemy alliance or the faction economy. The reason they can stand to do this is by having their own micro currency and economy.

Spruillo
Gallente
Spruillo Corp
Posted - 2010.10.20 14:51:00 - [2]
 

No.

Calypsa Aeurelieus
Posted - 2010.10.20 15:04:00 - [3]
 

I'm going to keep this short, but the problem is it creates multiple problems:

- Complexity of the system (A. For Coding, and B. For Users * Especially New Guys * )

- Once a powerhouse is established it would basically be able to run rampant and shut down every other group (As the real world power houses could and quite possibly would if it weren't for modern laws and rules of war)

All in all it's a novel idea, but impossible to successfully implement in this environment.

egola
Amarr
Posted - 2010.10.20 15:47:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: egola on 20/10/2010 15:50:19


i sort of like the potential of this idea although there are a TON ( TOOOOOOOOONS) of issues with it, its still a giant isk sink for those that deal business in 0.0 and hence isk sinks would help keep the value of our isk relatively stable.

however, the issues i've mentioned include:
  • Alliance's rapid loss of sovereignty and the general decline of that currency's value (the drop from a high isk value to no isk value, thus making LOTS of people dead broke in an instant)think Goon swarm and such.

  • the transitioning of an alliance and the value of their own currency as in the mechanic itself might be problematic as someone already mentioned regarding coding

  • the HUGE scamming potential when you have currencies that sound like existing ones (remember ccp doesn't allow impersonation of characters or people but nothing is said about in-game currencies [I.E. ITC(IT credits), ITM (IT Money) ITK (IT kredits) worse yet ISC(international space credits)

  • once again another huge scamming potential whereby major alliances jump to another alliance after they filtered through a ton of fake currency and make yet another currency rendering the old one worthless to buyers who already bought it

  • we sort of have a similar system dealing with corporate shares, the only difference is this is an alliance wide system instead

CCP Spitfire


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.10.20 16:19:00 - [5]
 

Moved from 'Market Discussions'.


TornSoul
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.10.20 16:23:00 - [6]
 

It's been suggested multiple times before.

The resounding answer from the overwhelming majority has each time been a very loud : "NO!"



shady trader
Posted - 2010.10.20 18:06:00 - [7]
 

As others have suggested its not a novel idea. There are multiple currencies in use, each planet tends to have its own as does each empire. As capules we are that rich we don't use the lesser currencies, us the one set up for larger corporations and empires to trade with each other.

Want to find out more? do a search for currencies on eve search.

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2010.10.20 19:46:00 - [8]
 

We would not be opposed to something like DKP systems within alliances or organisations. Indeed there have been past attempts at this by players to create such a system for their corps. The idea has been tossed around before internally to allow corporations to create their own LP store in short. That sort thing we would enjoy.

However 4 'empire' currencies for example would be largely not welcomed as it would only appeal to a very small subset of players whilst complicating the lives of the rest and with it, our designs and game mechanics in the process.

Maulcra
Posted - 2010.10.20 19:50:00 - [9]
 

Corporation/Alliance LP store
Private market as well

V'hellu
Posted - 2010.10.20 19:58:00 - [10]
 

yeah, this seems like it would be nothing more than an unnecessary complication to the mechanics of the game imo...

I'm not a big fan of this idea...

shady trader
Posted - 2010.10.20 21:22:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
We would not be opposed to something like DKP systems within alliances or organisations. Indeed there have been past attempts at this by players to create such a system for their corps. The idea has been tossed around before internally to allow corporations to create their own LP store in short. That sort thing we would enjoy.


having corps and alliances being able to issue their own promissory notes or bonds would have very interesting applications, specially when combined with a reworked share management system that facilities share trading via some type of market interface. Then corps could both provide discounted items from the corp store, or they could issue bonds to raise capital without having to sell the shares outside a corp, that could lead to control problems. It would simplify and create more diversity in the investment market.

Untraceable high value barer bonds would be useful for Incarna, just what you need to trade with the black market so that the transactions don't appear in your financial records.

Zolar V
Posted - 2010.10.20 22:22:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: shady trader
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
We would not be opposed to something like DKP systems within alliances or organisations. Indeed there have been past attempts at this by players to create such a system for their corps. The idea has been tossed around before internally to allow corporations to create their own LP store in short. That sort thing we would enjoy.


having corps and alliances being able to issue their own promissory notes or bonds would have very interesting applications, specially when combined with a reworked share management system that facilities share trading via some type of market interface. Then corps could both provide discounted items from the corp store, or they could issue bonds to raise capital without having to sell the shares outside a corp, that could lead to control problems. It would simplify and create more diversity in the investment market.

Untraceable high value barer bonds would be useful for Incarna, just what you need to trade with the black market so that the transactions don't appear in your financial records.



Exactly, Player driven currencies would have a major impact on the mechanics of the game and introduce several new aspects. Having a Corp LP-store and private markets would allow for fake corporations to be built that operate as a black market of sort. The LP stores probably wouldn't sell empire type items, but rather corporation made items.


Zolar V
Posted - 2010.10.20 22:31:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: egola
Edited by: egola on 20/10/2010 15:50:19


i sort of like the potential of this idea although there are a TON ( TOOOOOOOOONS) of issues with it, its still a giant isk sink for those that deal business in 0.0 and hence isk sinks would help keep the value of our isk relatively stable.

however, the issues i've mentioned include:
  • Alliance's rapid loss of sovereignty and the general decline of that currency's value (the drop from a high isk value to no isk value, thus making LOTS of people dead broke in an instant)think Goon swarm and such.

  • the transitioning of an alliance and the value of their own currency as in the mechanic itself might be problematic as someone already mentioned regarding coding

  • the HUGE scamming potential when you have currencies that sound like existing ones (remember ccp doesn't allow impersonation of characters or people but nothing is said about in-game currencies [I.E. ITC(IT credits), ITM (IT Money) ITK (IT kredits) worse yet ISC(international space credits)

  • once again another huge scamming potential whereby major alliances jump to another alliance after they filtered through a ton of fake currency and make yet another currency rendering the old one worthless to buyers who already bought it

  • we sort of have a similar system dealing with corporate shares, the only difference is this is an alliance wide system instead



Though your fears are well founded they lack any real foundation, Just like the real world you could instill different failsafes to accomidate deflation of alliance currencies.
Example, Alliance (AB) currency is worth 1.5x empire ISK, however in the coming months all of their wealth and economic power is destroyed through warfare. so they deflate to .01x empire ISK. The fail safe for the players in AB is the minimum for trading Alliance currency into ISK. IE the minimum deflated currency trade form Alliance to Empire ISK is .5. so 10k Alliance Currency = 5k Empire ISK.
THAT is a minimum though, with inflation you're currency could be 2 or 3x empire ISK.

Your ISK currency scam shouldn't be to much of a problem due to the need for the alliance to be a certain size before it is allowed to have currency of its own. Even if they do make such, it should be up to the player to research the currency before trading it anyways. Also you could have a sort of Intergalactic Currency Board review a sort of Currency Application before the currency is issued to the Alliance.

Zolar V
Posted - 2010.10.20 22:34:00 - [14]
 

The idea simply boils down to the fact that, large alliances can and do become more powerful than the "empire", and therefore should be allowed to have its own currency. It is the natural evolution of a power.

cyndrogen
Posted - 2010.10.20 23:37:00 - [15]
 

What would the alliance LP stores offer though?

If there was a way for us to purchase tournament gear I would be interested. Still I could see this turning into a scam quickly where people sell rare items only to gank those who even attempt to buy them and return it to the LP store. If the alliance had highsec offices it might be a bit safer.

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2010.10.21 00:34:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Joe Starbreaker on 21/10/2010 00:36:06
I don't understand the case for alliance currencies. If an alliance wanted to create its own separate medium of exchange, why not just use a commodity like Oxygen or Exotic Dancers?

I like the idea of alliances being able to set up internal markets - selling items only to fellow alliance-mates - but I think they could use ISK for that. The main idea is to be able to put things on the market (for example in 0.0) that 3rd parties couldn't buy and re-sell as a prank/scam.

Corp and Alliance LP, could be OK.

EDIT: I meant to also say, I rather prefer the idea of four empire currencies, so I'm surprised to see the Dev post that they'd rather implement your dumb idea of corporate currencies than the more reasonable idea of empire currencies.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2010.10.21 00:55:00 - [17]
 

in house currency is an interesting idea

Lederstrumpf
Posted - 2010.10.21 03:08:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 21/10/2010 03:12:07
Originally by: Zolar V
Very large alliances will have the ability to create 'embargo' on other alliances


Reminds me of "Deutsche wehrt Euch! Kauft nicht bei Juden" slogans from pre WW2 Germany.

> [Large alliances] would have the political power/money to buy votes from other alliances.

You're a Republican, right?


To get a bit less serious: Money got invented to make trading easier in the first place.
Ever tried to buy a computer offering fresh oranges? No? For a reason.

Multiple currencies do add to the trade overhead. They suck up trade time. That's less than optimal.

In real life multiple currencies do lower the risk of abuse. CCP is the ISK printing machine in EVE, if they want to nerf the money pool they can do it no matter if there's one or multiple currencies within EVE. So you'd get an efficiency loss without any big scope benefit.

I've been playing MUDs 20 years ago which had multiple currencies in place. Half of the shops didn't accept half of the (other currency) money so you constantly weren't capable of using a percentage of your earned money. Is that what you want? "No Sir, we do not accept that US dollar bill, this is France" -- you think that's cool? It still seems necessary. But it's not cool at all.

If I remember you're free to establish some "out of EVE" currency as long as you effectively exclude any real money transfer, right?

Take a minute or two and google for "forum gold" -- a clever "invention" from a webhosting guy to offer an alternate currency system to Diablo2 players. Diablo2 had a big problem: The ingame money is kinda worthless... so you were struck to trade item versus item before there was forum gold, FG in short. High value trades most of the time go Item1<->FG<->Item2 routes these days. As FG can be bought for real life money it doesn't suit EVE. But again: I think you're free to set up a similar system as long as you don't allow RMT.

Have it Veldspaar backed? Have it Zephyr backed? Whatever -- I don't think it's worth the effort.

Zolar V
Posted - 2010.10.21 13:48:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Lederstrumpf
Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 21/10/2010 03:12:07
Originally by: Zolar V
Very large alliances will have the ability to create 'embargo' on other alliances


Reminds me of "Deutsche wehrt Euch! Kauft nicht bei Juden" slogans from pre WW2 Germany.


So some how you managed to take the idea of multiple currencies and turn it into some sort of anti-Semitic idea? That is just really really dumb to say the least.
Quote:

> [Large alliances] would have the political power/money to buy votes from other alliances.

You're a Republican, right?


And this is relevant how? but fyi i am democratic, and i am sure there is just as much corruption in one as the other.
Quote:


To get a bit less serious: Money got invented to make trading easier in the first place.
Ever tried to buy a computer offering fresh oranges? No? For a reason.

Multiple currencies do add to the trade overhead. They suck up trade time. That's less than optimal.

In real life multiple currencies do lower the risk of abuse. CCP is the ISK printing machine in EVE, if they want to nerf the money pool they can do it no matter if there's one or multiple currencies within EVE. So you'd get an efficiency loss without any big scope benefit.

I've been playing MUDs 20 years ago which had multiple currencies in place. Half of the shops didn't accept half of the (other currency) money so you constantly weren't capable of using a percentage of your earned money. Is that what you want? "No Sir, we do not accept that US dollar bill, this is France" -- you think that's cool? It still seems necessary. But it's not cool at all.

If I remember you're free to establish some "out of EVE" currency as long as you effectively exclude any real money transfer, right?

Take a minute or two and google for "forum gold" -- a clever "invention" from a webhosting guy to offer an alternate currency system to Diablo2 players. Diablo2 had a big problem: The ingame money is kinda worthless... so you were struck to trade item versus item before there was forum gold, FG in short. High value trades most of the time go Item1<->FG<->Item2 routes these days. As FG can be bought for real life money it doesn't suit EVE. But again: I think you're free to set up a similar system as long as you don't allow RMT.


load of bs that has absolutely nothing to do with in-game in-house multiple currencies. We have currency conversions IRL for a reason.
Quote:

Have it Veldspaar backed? Have it Zephyr backed? Whatever -- I don't think it's worth the effort.



Now, you have actually come up with a real question. /sarcastic-golf-clap.
World currencies were originally backed by a physical medium, usually gold, but others included Salt, various forms of spice, certain types of lumber, and so on. Now we could start the Alliance's off with physically backed currency but soon, just like in the real world, their economic status is going to dictate the real value of the currency. Currency isn't just used as a trading medium, but it is also used as a measure for the economic power of a country(or in this case the alliance).

Zolar V
Posted - 2010.10.21 13:54:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Edited by: Joe Starbreaker on 21/10/2010 00:36:06
I don't understand the case for alliance currencies. If an alliance wanted to create its own separate medium of exchange, why not just use a commodity like Oxygen or Exotic Dancers?


Because that is a commodity and not a currency. The price of each is rather fixed and is not based upon the economic power of the alliance.
Quote:


EDIT: I meant to also say, I rather prefer the idea of four empire currencies, so I'm surprised to see the Dev post that they'd rather implement your dumb idea of corporate currencies than the more reasonable idea of empire currencies.


Well, i am sure the dev's are much smarter than you are. At least they understood the reason why instituting currencies for the empire is a completely stupid idea.
Simple reason: Empire is not dynamic.
I really hope that is simple enough for you to wrap your giant logical brain around.

Zolar V
Posted - 2010.10.21 13:57:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: cyndrogen
What would the alliance LP stores offer though?

If there was a way for us to purchase tournament gear I would be interested. Still I could see this turning into a scam quickly where people sell rare items only to gank those who even attempt to buy them and return it to the LP store. If the alliance had highsec offices it might be a bit safer.


Well, Alliance LP stores could offer a multitude of items, such as ships, fittings, commodities, even star bases. You could even go as far as to say that an alliance could forge a deal with empire to buy LP type items, like the navy drake or what-not.
Why wouldn't they have highsec offices? surely an Alliance would want to trade with others, for the right price. Or trade with others for protection. the list goes on.

Barakkus
Posted - 2010.10.22 15:05:00 - [22]
 

Just add a loyalty point system for alliances. Let the alliances convert isk into LP and let members either earn LP on contracts or purchase LP from the alliance.

Let alliances have an LP store and you're all set.

Julia Venatrix
Posted - 2010.10.22 15:30:00 - [23]
 

Not a fan.

In general, I am not really terribly enthusiastic about allowing an alliance to create scrip, but it might as well be done by any alliance if it were done, not just big ones.

If it is implemented, it's important to NOT have NPC bureaux de change. Let players control exchange rates and arbitrage. Agents should pay in the currency of the controlling government of their space only.


Jade Mitch
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.23 04:54:00 - [24]
 

Eve already has multiple currencies. They're called minerals.



 

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