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Estimated Prophet
Ye Olde Curiosity Shoppe and Trading Company
EVE Trade Consortium
Posted - 2010.10.20 03:08:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Estimated Prophet on 20/10/2010 03:11:39
Originally by: CCP Explorer
These changes were on SiSi from early August.

I saw the pinned windows unstacking bug on Sisi and didn't report it for a couple of reasons:

1. It was so blindingly obvious that I thought someone had checked in a milestone build as was still working on it.

2. The only other time I raised a bug against Sisi the only feedback I got was a month after it had gone live on Tranquility (two months after I'd raised it - a "can't reproduce" because it was fixed in Sisi a few days later).

So please, next time something big goes onto Sisi, please a) tell us "Hey, we made these changes on Sisi, please test them", and b) respond quickly to the bug reports.

Phantom Slave
Universal Pest Exterminators
Posted - 2010.10.20 04:42:00 - [62]
 

So does this mean the UI will become more responsive as parts of it are re-written? I really hope so!

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.10.20 04:46:00 - [63]
 

Good Job Guys! Now we know that sometime coming up that we will have a much better UI in the works congrats!Very Happy

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2010.10.20 05:46:00 - [64]
 

Quote:
We finally got our known defect count down to zero a few weeks ago

You MUST be trolling Shocked

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2010.10.20 05:47:00 - [65]
 

foundation fixing not always appealing but sometimes nessecary Im glad you guys went ahead and did it.

Xylopia
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.10.20 06:05:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Xylopia on 20/10/2010 06:06:45
Congratz on this rather big move!

One thing I'd rather curious is if any talk whatsoever occurred to deploy flash-based ui framework such as Scaleform at some point before rebuilding UI core?

I know I might be rabbling here since I don't really know how CCP makes decision and EVE client is built, but it seems possible since Awesomium is already here.

Very Happy

Bhattran
Posted - 2010.10.20 06:19:00 - [67]
 

I seem to not be able to read the part of the blog where it mentions how or why the bug reports of the issues that spurred the multiple optional patches were ignored/lost/not addressed.


Nemtar Nataal
Demonic Retribution
Posted - 2010.10.20 06:51:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Reiisha
So does this mean we're on the way to getting a UI like the one we keep seeing in the trailers?


I like where this guy..ehh...Girl i mean is going.

A real SciFi would be so cool, and i mean i my self have been living with this style of UI for almost a decade its time for change...its time for evolution (where is Darwin when you need him) Cool

Lutz Major
Posted - 2010.10.20 07:07:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu
This is work that nobody really wanted to do - it's big and boring and difficult and requires a lot of concentration and late nights and being shouted at for breaking internal builds, and it doesn't even give you the satisfaction of having made something nice at the end, because the best-case scenario is that other departments ask what the hell you've been doing for six months because nothing's changed.
Been there. Done that. Beeing yelled at, too.

I pity those devs and hope they get at least a pat on the shoulder for their work Very Happy
If not, could you do this in the cafeteria for me? I would have appreciated that gesture back then *sigh*

Viscount Hood
Gallivanting Travel Company
Band of Wanderers
Posted - 2010.10.20 07:35:00 - [70]
 

I commend your efforts.
I know all about thankless tasks and global blame when it doesn't work.

Magic Crisp
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.10.20 07:53:00 - [71]
 

Yes, indeed a very useful task to have it done, though still a lot of things don't work, or not properly. Like the eve mail textbox, window placements (snapping messes it all up), on the market it's useless to append " ISK" to the prices, there are just no other moneys in the game, or so.

The only definite improvement i've noticed so far, is when applying a job from S&I->(corp) blueprints, the scrolling gets back to the place of the blueprint and i don't have to search the BP from the whole list again and again.

Apart from this, the search box takes a lot of time to work in the hangar windows, switching between corp hangars is damn slow sometime (to get the item list in the divs), and we're still not able to see items at POSes (though this works from the API, kinda funny).

There are still a lot to be done here, I hope someday you'll get it done.

Victor Valka
Caldari
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2010.10.20 08:12:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Lynn Deniera
I must be the only one to not have any real problems.
I'm glad all your problems are imaginary.
CCP troll, best troll. Laughing

On a serious note, what UI improvements can we look forward to? Was this corification of UI framework viewed as a prerequisite for reworking such painful interfaces as corp/alliance management, POS management and S&I?

Thanks for your time! Smile

DeBingJos
Minmatar
Goat Holdings
Posted - 2010.10.20 08:40:00 - [73]
 

I hope this is the first step towards major UI changes. Building the framework is always a lot work but improving the existing UI should be much simpler now that you have a solid base to work from.

Can you tell us when/what we can expect in the future? You don't have to give us hard dates, but some teasers would be nice Wink

Sverre Haakonson
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.20 08:41:00 - [74]
 

I have only one wish:

Don't make the UI to shiny. To me it's more important to get my demand for information and react to this information as fast as possible. Today in a fleet fight, the fight is based only on overview and targets on top off the screen.

Maybe other pilots like a shiny UI more than I, but with the new core it should be possible to different versions for the pilots.


dakin
Minmatar
Kymmer-yn-Edeirnion
BR0WNC0ATS
Posted - 2010.10.20 09:29:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
These changes were on SiSi from early August.


So of all the mass testing from that point, the overview issue and most of the other problems never appeared. Did you tweak SiSi as you went along with the QA testing? Did that part of the code make it into SiSi?

Don't get me wrong. I am happy you guys completed the UI updates, but it seems strange that these obvious UI bugs were never a problem during the Mass Tests.

Shurikane
Posted - 2010.10.20 12:04:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Shurikane on 20/10/2010 12:06:03



I have a very, very, very strange request for those devs who happen to have a bit too much time on their hands.

Is it possible to have some screenshots of test-phase UIs in moments where they hilariously broke apart? Very Happy



bcs1
Minmatar
River-Rats in space
Posted - 2010.10.20 13:39:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: kano donn
Originally by: Cuchulain Spartan

Maybe run a competition for the top 100 bug reports filed, as in best written, most descriptive, most helpful etc. Give out a few ships here and there or SP to the top 100. Something to ease the pain.


This is an absolutely great idea


Agreed...
It would accomplish a few things, not the least of which would be to hopefully increase the amount of feedback/reports from players at the onset of the patch, (yes, this really IS a good thing) and while "trinkets for participation" might be viewed by some as "bribery to avoid anger" the end result would be more reports of any problems (if they exist) at the start, and people actually trying to include something useful instead of the normal "You suck CCP" comments.

At some point, the Devs of every game I've ever played have sucked, and like everyone else they are only human, so sometimes they'll pull a really boneheaded stunt, that aspect is a given, but at least CCP seems to try to put forth the effort to "suck less".

ofc just my 0.02 cents worth.

o/




Shurikane
Posted - 2010.10.20 14:46:00 - [78]
 

Not to mention that "When I tried to do this, the program reacted that way, but when I went at it the other way, it worked perfectly" is infinitely more helpful than "OMG TEH GAEMS BROKIE!"

Hell, 3/4 of the bug reports I got at my job were due to a problem between the chair and keyboard. At that point, we didn't fix the program; we tried to make it more intuitive so people fell into the particular trap less often.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.10.20 16:43:00 - [79]
 

Are you addressing how much more CPU the new version requrires on the cilient side?

I used to have little trouble running 3 clients concurrently without maxing out CPU. Now I can barely run 1. There is no reason for me to have 3 accounts if I can't be logged in to more than 1 at a time!

To me, this is a FAR, FAR bigger problem than windows not staying put or duplicating entries in the overview when undocking.

Nadarius Chrome
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Posted - 2010.10.20 22:28:00 - [80]
 

Bug report 102283 submitted several days ago regarding another UI issue. Status: Not filtered.

I have another from over two weeks ago that also has that status.

Don't expect us to bug report stuff if you don't even use the information. >_<

Hordi LaGeorge
Posted - 2010.10.20 23:42:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Nadarius Chrome

Don't expect us to bug report stuff if you don't even use the information. >_<


This.

I got a bug report 3 weeks old that is still "not filtered". And in the past Ive had bugs "attached to a defect" that do not get fixed for over a year. Why report a bug if the result is a un-repaired bug?

Mi Sing
Caldari
Crusaders Transcendancy
Posted - 2010.10.21 02:35:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Mi Sing on 21/10/2010 02:43:19
Al of this "Optional Patching" is great and all. But, being in an area where internet connections are poor, when will these optional patches be available on the "Off Line" download page? I can't patch through the game interface because the connection here is poor. I tried, and after 2 hours without progress, I gave up on the optional patch. I would really like to be able to fix these UI issues, but since I can not get the patches through the game interface, I am stuck with the 1.1 patch as is, at least until CCP deigns to place these "Optional Patches" on the Download page, or until Incursion. (Which, BTW, seems more likely.) Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Oh, and if they are available as part of the Patch Download Page, please label them differently so that they can be distinguished from each other. Right now it shows the latest patch as going from 290 to 699. Does that include the optiona patches, or not.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.10.21 04:43:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Shurikane
Not to mention that "When I tried to do this, the program reacted that way, but when I went at it the other way, it worked perfectly" is infinitely more helpful than "OMG TEH GAEMS BROKIE!"

Hell, 3/4 of the bug reports I got at my job were due to a problem between the chair and keyboard. At that point, we didn't fix the program; we tried to make it more intuitive so people fell into the particular trap less often.


As a UI developer one of my more necessary tools is a crystal ball. Laughing

Crow Sword
Seven Crafts
LEM Alliance
Posted - 2010.10.21 09:55:00 - [84]
 

You say "now that everything's settled down" in blog, but I don't see a fix in release notes for the bug with duplicated items in overview (#101268).

Thebriwan
LUX Uls Xystus
Posted - 2010.10.21 11:12:00 - [85]
 

This blog is very welcome. And the benefits of the change are clear.

BUT:

You could have made a test week on SiSi.

And when it was obvious that there were defects on the run in mass - you should said something why this happens THEN.

You guys are so much awesome in many way - but sometimes you forget to tell us.


Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2010.10.21 19:00:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Drake Draconis on 21/10/2010 19:05:37
Ok so you're admitting that you people screwed up.

Little late for that.

But the one thing you did that is inexcusable is the fact you didn't bother to test your own bloody patches out before you released these so called improvements.

Lets be serious here... do you people even bother playing the game anymore? Do you even have the slightest notion of what your patches are doing to us?

Because I'm starting to think that allowing these painful UI glitches to continue for so long is just unfathomable.

You have an entire server of which to test these fixes for a prolonged period of time... why the #### are you not using it?

Why are we being pressed to do your beta testing?


Ok fine... your cleaning up the core.... well breaking one thing that worked to fix something we have no idea of what happens on the back end is not what I call an good excuse.

We're your customers... not your lab rats.

For all things good... lets make sure you test your patches before you release them in the wild mkay?

PS: don't get me wrong... I fully understand and read clearly what's being said... but in all seriousness... this feels like a cop out

Swidgen
Posted - 2010.10.21 20:18:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Drake Draconis
You have an entire server of which to test these fixes for a prolonged period of time... why the #### are you not using it?

They are using it, like for today's mass testing. You know, the one where you download a new 2GB client and can't even use it because the login screen is totally black.

sue denim
Posted - 2010.10.22 05:41:00 - [88]
 

wow damage control. Totally not buying it. I can appreciate that there was probably a gigantic ton of problems but seriously what was left was OBVIOUS. They were tiny problems or moderate problems that slipped through the cracks they were gigantic obvious problems that were made obvious whenever you tried to do even the most commonly used and basic features of eve (cargo, mail, chat, you name it :| broken).

Was by chance the scope of your testing for defects just logging and fixing the problems that came up and not doing a single thing else?

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2010.10.22 05:41:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Swidgen
Originally by: Drake Draconis
You have an entire server of which to test these fixes for a prolonged period of time... why the #### are you not using it?

They are using it, like for today's mass testing. You know, the one where you download a new 2GB client and can't even use it because the login screen is totally black.


That says a lot don't it?

onyu
Posted - 2010.10.22 18:35:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: CCP Fallout
This is what's technically known as awesome.


I wish I wish this means you're fixing the scheduling problems of the client among other things?

Like the client stopping dead while its waiting for some non-critical server response for something like a market inquiry while I'm docked?


You should really have some of your testers play with their connections routed through Globe Telecom in the Philippines. Their Network has very high Jitter and is hopelessly oversold. Basically, its miserable.

This shows up some of EVE's strengths and weeknesses that I never noticed when I play from home.

Strength: EVE stays connected better than other games over a flaky network, your protocol is more forgiving of timeouts and lost packets. Lag is manageable.

Weakness: The EVE client will refuse to interact for long periods, waiting for a non-critical server response... how do I presume to know what's non-critical? Well, if I'm docked in a station, basically, nothing is critical except hitting the undock button. The client should easily queue up everything I request, and schedule it for sending and receiving, with the UI remaining responsive to further input.


The weirdest is the chat. When the connection is fine, letter show up normally - as fast as I type them.
When the connection is slow, I can type a 20 word sentence and hit enter to send it, while the EVE client is still working on displaying the first 3 words of that sentence, letter by letter slowly showing up.

It would make perfect sense if I type a message, hit enter to send, and then it takes a while to show up in the chatbox, but having the keyboard input itself become slow is something I've never seen in another program.






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