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Vormica
Posted - 2010.10.19 01:00:00 - [1]
 

Besides it being bannable, really not much stopping people for macro mining (and honestly what % of macro miners get caught?)

My Idea would be, when you first turn on your lasers a codes pops up on screen that you would have to repeat (just like websites do), once entered you are good to mine for 15-30 minutes after that time expires would need to enter new code to activate next cycle

Yes this would be a mild annoyance to miners, but they would benefit enough from the reduce flow of ore flooding the markets by the Macro miners?

What say you guys, any other ideas?

Reicine Ceer
Rodents of Unusual Size
Posted - 2010.10.19 02:29:00 - [2]
 

Captcha would drive real life miners away. Im afraid that your intentions are good but the suggestion would be detrimental to EVE.

My suggestion will be even less popular, but will fit into the world of EVE and sort out macro mining too.

The key lies with NPCs. CCP should make them hit harder. Not faster, but harder, so that miners are forced to live in the universe and not just profit from it in an albeit time consuming but ultimately passive manner. My suggestion would force genuine miners to fleet up with either corpies or others, work together for protection and potentially even open avenues for active guard contracts.

Macro miners, from my understanding, will not be able to deal with this additional layer of realism within EVE, as NOT fleeting up will be their demise, and fleeting up with others and being completely silent, ignoring everyone else in their fleet, squirreling away their ore and repeating the process.

Of course the basics would need to be fleshed out, but thats the gist of it. Using the concept of EVE against macro miners.

Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2010.10.19 05:04:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Alara IonStorm on 19/10/2010 06:02:48
Originally by: Reicine Ceer
Large Quote

While I agree with you on a lot of issues, especially the NPC one(Even in missions better not more). I see one problem with this!

Newb Miners in there little frigates would be WTF Pwn'd before they even know what there doin, we don't have the best tutorial. Leaving weak rats in 1.0 Systems will mean that all the Macro Hulks will just show up there and bye bye Newb Belts!

It is an annoying situation to say the least, both idea's would cause equal disturbance, I am in favour of a reworked NPC idea though!

Edit: Perhaps faster is a solution, once they start firing on you, if your macro hulk perma tanks them they call in reforcements(say every 3 minutes)!

Xorv
Posted - 2010.10.19 05:49:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Xorv on 19/10/2010 05:50:13
Originally by: Alara IonStorm

Newb Miners in there little frigates would be WTF Pwn'd before they even know what there doin, we don't have the best tutorial. Leaving weak rats in 1.0 Systems will mean that all the Macro Hulks will just show up there and bye bye Newb Belts!



Which brings us to the real solution move all isk faucets out of High Sec that aren't super low value stuff directed towards newbie players.

Then remove local chat from low and null sec space and add random false positives to the directional scanner. Macro Mining and macro Ratting would be cured.

Betty Boom
Caldari
SPECTRE Syndicate
Posted - 2010.10.19 06:22:00 - [5]
 

Remove Ice belts from High sec

This was my idea to reduce the macrominers . To move all ice belts from high sec. 95% of all Ice miners are macroers.

Sakura Shiro
Posted - 2010.10.19 07:45:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Sakura Shiro on 19/10/2010 07:47:17
Originally by: Reicine Ceer

The key lies with NPCs. CCP should make them hit harder. Not faster, but harder, so that miners are forced to live in the universe and not just profit from it in an albeit time consuming but ultimately passive manner. My suggestion would force genuine miners to fleet up with either corpies or others, work together for protection and potentially even open avenues for active guard contracts.



So you want to triple their income? Harder hittng rats are more bounty (its how rats work...frigs do frig damage, bc does bc damage, bs does....you guessed it BS damage).


Heres what I would do as a macro...or as an afk miner. Alt with an afk domi...sentries....right on top of the belt. rats come in from betls. Will aggro domi first. sentries set for aggressive...let you guess what happens next.


3-4 hours of this, you got triple high value BS spawns across the belts and the ice field. On a quiet night all to myself and lots of time to kill I ratted for hours in null sec. out of 7 spawns across the belts, lowest was 900K total when done. 2 triple popes running around, assloads of cardinals and monsignors (was in blood rat territory obviously). 3 X 1.8 mil BS' every 20-30 minutes...yep that will teach the macro's a lesson. Really teach them a lesson....officer level spawns. I'll be nice...no officer loot. Still a 20mil + bounty in about 2 minutes assuming your bs good enough.

Or if you give empire these high grade rats...combat pilots like me would be all over it. Miners would not need protection...belt ratting > missions any day of the week. On a properly chained belt system....easy 15 mil in less than 20 minutes with a decent skilled and fit ratter (without loot/salvage). Hell I wiped whole systems of belts in a plain ole t1 raven t2 fit....cost me all of 80 mil full fit in a fire sale, made billions with that pig all said and done. self destructerd her when I left null sec....good ship, with insurance was a profit. even in death...she made me money.

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2010.10.19 07:53:00 - [7]
 

My suggestion would be to make mining more complex. Create a mining minigame. Like how they changed the scanning mechanic from being totally brain-dead to something where you actually have to have some spatial understanding.

That way mining both gets more interesting, and it gets harder to automate. Win-win.

Project 69
Posted - 2010.10.19 08:21:00 - [8]
 

Can't escape the macros....

whatever you do, they'll adept.

Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2010.10.19 08:38:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Project 69
Can't escape the macros....

whatever you do, they'll adept.

We are the Macro's!

We will Raise Mineral Prices!

Resistance is Futile!

Project 69
Posted - 2010.10.19 08:52:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Alara IonStorm

01> We are the Macro's!
02> We will Raise Mineral Prices!
03> Resistance is Futile!
04> goto 01



Fixed Laughing

Horizonist
Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2010.10.19 09:29:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Horizonist on 19/10/2010 09:31:40
Being a miner by trade, I really want to see the macros go as well.

The solution is not, imho, to add an extra "realism" layer (making rats hit harder etc), since this will just smack down on ALL miners (especially those of us who generally mine solo - a Hulk can only tank so much), and possibly not really cure the problem effectively.

The only real solution that I see is the Captcha one - or any kind of human check. We have to remember that Captcha has been used to fight off macros from large sites like Gmail, Wikipedia etc for a long time now, and I have not heard anyone say that it is not working.

The only real problem is how this would be used in practice in Eve, and I am not sure there is a simple solution to that. Just popping up a Captcha whenever you fire up your strip miners can easily be worked around by using a hauler macro and thus never turning the strip miners off. A better idea would perhaps be for CCP to probe suspected macros using Captcha - if a Captcha message pops up, said miner has a certain grace period to respond. If they dont respond in that period, but rather keep on mining and station running, ban them.

Reicine Ceer
Rodents of Unusual Size
Posted - 2010.10.19 11:20:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Daedalus II
My suggestion would be to make mining more complex. Create a mining minigame. Like how they changed the scanning mechanic from being totally brain-dead to something where you actually have to have some spatial understanding.

That way mining both gets more interesting, and it gets harder to automate. Win-win.


I rescind my previous suggestion and +1 this. I stand by my original statement that while Captcha may work, it is a royal pain in the butt. A minigame that requires ingenuity, thought and problem solving would be fantastic. AFK miners would have nothing to complain about either.

Expanding the idea -
Minigame would not be NECESSARY, just barely worth mining without doing the game.

Fluff - the mining laz0rs are zapping away at the rock as they are now, extracting whatever finite mineral wealth they can. Minigame gets introduced that would in fact allow the miners to actively track seams of minerals through the asteroids, gleaning as much worthwhile material they can while ignoring as much of the barren useless rock as possible.

This would eliminate the profitability of macro miners, whilst still giving genuine afk miners (we all have to go to the toilet at some point) something more than "OMG UR AFK! BANZ0R!" that the knee-jerk reactionaries wish for.

Great suggestion, Daedalus II!

Horizonist
Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2010.10.19 11:42:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Horizonist on 19/10/2010 12:06:27
I think the minigame idea is interesting, but I do not really see how it would not crack down on AFK miners as well (me being one of them). Would this minigame run throughout the entire mining cycle, or just when you fire up your lasers?

Generally, I think we should try to avoid any solution that punishes (directly or indirectly) legitimate AFK miners along with the macros. Some of us have really busy RL schedules and simply cannot afford to do much more than afk mining, and it is a benefit I would really hate to lose.

So, I am generally all for a solution like this, I would just very much like to see it being periodical rather than constant - for example, it could kick in whenever you target and start mining a new roid.

GizzyBoy
Posted - 2010.10.19 12:51:00 - [14]
 

I don't know if you've ice mined lately, but ohmygod, its worse that regular mining, because at least those rocks pop.

I think they tolerated ice macro' somewhat, earlier purely because of all the pos's that where needed for sov, now fuel demand ought to be some what lower.

They fixed insurance so now macro miners shouldn't be making anywhere near what they where for all there effort. however personally, returns are so low its better to just pve and recycle the loot / buy mins with bounty's /mission rewards.

Normally when we ate all the <strike>pies</strike> rocks,
we would do a mission (warehouse was great) and mine all the rocks in there.

A mini game? isnt selecting the right crystal & watching the astro scanner for timing rock depletion to strip mining stroke, and balancing your yeild per stroke and logisticas (warp in warp out / jet cans or Orca) mini game enough?

Mehrune Khan
Amarr
Posted - 2010.10.19 13:01:00 - [15]
 

It would be nice if CCP somehow introduced orbital bodies into the game. Planets, stargates, and asteroid belts should be moving around their stars. If the belts were gradually moving through the system, anyone sitting in one place while trying to mine would go out of range, in say 10-20 minutes. The only way to correct this would be to orbit a rock while mining the other rocks. While the macroers could do this, you could pop the rock they are orbitting and seriously screw with them. It wouldn't have much of an impact on miners at keys.

shady trader
Posted - 2010.10.19 20:16:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Vormica
Besides it being bannable, really not much stopping people for macro mining (and honestly what % of macro miners get caught?)

My Idea would be, when you first turn on your lasers a codes pops up on screen that you would have to repeat (just like websites do), once entered you are good to mine for 15-30 minutes after that time expires would need to enter new code to activate next cycle

Yes this would be a mild annoyance to miners, but they would benefit enough from the reduce flow of ore flooding the markets by the Macro miners?

What say you guys, any other ideas?


If you had done a search on Catcha which is the official name for that you had suggested you would have found several existing threads about this and why it does not work.

Basically there are programmes out there with greater then 60% chance of betting the Catcha on the first attempt. Also most macro miners are overseen by a person running large number of accounts (one report said when done as a business is normal 20-40 accounts per bot herder depending on the game) so they could solve the Catcha for the bot. There is even company's out in India, that have staff who spend their day solving Catcha's for clients at something like $5 per thousand, this service is marketed at scams and spammers for bulk account set up.

Its more likely to cause more problems for the real miners then the bots. I believe that CCP have stated in at least one thread that they will not introduce a change that causes more problems for real players, just to cause miner problems to macro's.

Also remember most miners have multiple accounts and it would have to be solver able by people who speak different languages, then you have to make sure you don't discriminate against people with disabilities, for example is possible to play eve using just voice control software and a mouse so no keyboard.

Also that about macro ratters, do you expect every person shooting to input a Catcha before their guns will fire?
That about macro mission runners, every player having to input a catcha before accepting a mission?


You may want to do a little research on the discussions. I recommend Eve-search.com as its a much better search engine then the eve web sites search.


The only effective way to get rid of macro's is to destroy the demand for RMT. Delete the accounts of the people who buy isk on first offence, permanently ban any other accounts liked to their credit card and e-mail address. Then name and shame the character (not the player for legal reasons).

cyndrogen
Posted - 2010.10.19 20:21:00 - [17]
 

macro mining is allowed because of monotonous game play. Any game that can be played by a macro is , IMHO, a badly designed game.

Mining as a profession should require more then just warping to a belt targeting a roid and activating a laser ad nauseam.

No what we need is intelligent game play, a way to keep the flow going.
In space asteroids MOVE, this movement can be added to the game mechanic.
Having to constantly adjust your lasers as you mine to compensate for this movement to get maximum yield. If you fail to keep up the asteroid has less yield, get too close and the asteroid overloads your lasers and shuts them down, you have to monitor and watch what you are doing and adjust the lasers to get maximum yield.

The distance would vary based on size of the roid and mass. I would introduce the concept of gravity as you get closer to the roid to further make it more of a challenge to keep aligned just perfectly to get that MAX yield.

No captcha system will stop macros, especially after I learned that they actually can read text too!

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9741874-7.html

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2010.10.19 20:27:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Reicine Ceer
Originally by: Daedalus II
My suggestion would be to make mining more complex. Create a mining minigame. Like how they changed the scanning mechanic from being totally brain-dead to something where you actually have to have some spatial understanding.

That way mining both gets more interesting, and it gets harder to automate. Win-win.


I rescind my previous suggestion and +1 this. I stand by my original statement that while Captcha may work, it is a royal pain in the butt. A minigame that requires ingenuity, thought and problem solving would be fantastic. AFK miners would have nothing to complain about either.

Expanding the idea -
Minigame would not be NECESSARY, just barely worth mining without doing the game.

Fluff - the mining laz0rs are zapping away at the rock as they are now, extracting whatever finite mineral wealth they can. Minigame gets introduced that would in fact allow the miners to actively track seams of minerals through the asteroids, gleaning as much worthwhile material they can while ignoring as much of the barren useless rock as possible.

This would eliminate the profitability of macro miners, whilst still giving genuine afk miners (we all have to go to the toilet at some point) something more than "OMG UR AFK! BANZ0R!" that the knee-jerk reactionaries wish for.

Great suggestion, Daedalus II!

Thanks!

Here is my assembly hall proposal for a new mining system:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1402147
While not particularly AFK friendly, it can be used AFK, you will just be very inefficient. Mostly slowly mining through useless rock, hitting the occational mineral cache from time to time.

frostias
Posted - 2010.10.19 21:24:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: frostias on 19/10/2010 21:26:59
Macros, bots & slave miners will be forever in eve.

Thinking......
A) Raise mineral price much more.
B) New big ORE ship and another very little (for newbis) with no mining laser. Manual (and visual) Ore tractor beam, to put entire ore into cargo. You need a collaborative (few ships) visual work to do. Ore move erratic with tractor, you need to adjust with visual, etc etc. If you operate incorrect, the ship will be damaged (collision).
C) Laser miners (&strip) could degenerate and damage. You need to refit in... 20 minutes?. Low prices for this lasers but you need to buy (low prices) & refit.
E) New rat ship. Very low Damage but fire often. firing cloacked (no overview) only alarm sound or similar. Newbie can survive but macro&botminer destroyed.

Horizonist
Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2010.10.19 21:42:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Horizonist on 19/10/2010 21:44:16
Originally by: frostias
Edited by: frostias on 19/10/2010 21:26:59
Macros, bots & slave miners will be forever in eve.

Thinking......
A) Raise mineral price much more.
B) New big ORE ship and another very little (for newbis) with no mining laser. Manual (and visual) Ore tractor beam, to put entire ore into cargo. You need a collaborative (few ships) visual work to do. Ore move erratic with tractor, you need to adjust with visual, etc etc. If you operate incorrect, the ship will be damaged (collision).
C) Laser miners (&strip) could degenerate and damage. You need to refit in... 20 minutes?. Low prices for this lasers but you need to buy (low prices) & refit.
E) New rat ship. Very low Damage but fire often. firing cloacked (no overview) only alarm sound or similar. Newbie can survive but macro&botminer destroyed.



That is all much too complicated, and the first one not even doable since the mineral prices are regulated by the player economy, not CCP (also, why RAISE the prices? That plays right into the macroers hands). The other points could very possibly be macroed around.

Also, this too kills AFK miners. We do not deserve to be tossed out just to get rid of macros, there has to be a better way - I still like the human-check approach, as long as you can implement it in a way that goes with the game.

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2010.10.19 22:17:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Horizonist


That is all much too complicated, and the first one not even doable since the mineral prices are regulated by the player economy, not CCP (also, why RAISE the prices? That plays right into the macroers hands). The other points could very possibly be macroed around.

Also, this too kills AFK miners. We do not deserve to be tossed out just to get rid of macros, there has to be a better way - I still like the human-check approach, as long as you can implement it in a way that goes with the game.


It can be questioned, however, if it really is a good thing to be able to afk mine. Understand me right here, I afk mine as much as the next guy, but something feels fundamentally flawed if you can play the game without being at the keyboard. If mining wasn't so damn boring, AFK mining wouldn't be needed. And as many have pointed out, if it's easy to AFK mine, it's easy to macro mine, there is no way around it.

I think AFK mining might very well disrupt the mineral prices in EVE, as it's essentially too easy to mine as it is.

Altymicalter
Posted - 2010.10.19 23:07:00 - [22]
 

Honestly, until they make it into a mini game, they should make mining like PI. Automated to the point where you only check it every couple of hours. Then reduce prices so people cannot use it as isk machines.

Max Cetera
Capital Researchs Inc.
Posted - 2010.10.19 23:50:00 - [23]
 


Cedims
Posted - 2010.10.20 00:06:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Cedims on 20/10/2010 00:08:55
Most people nowadays seem to have a webcam, and for a monthly $10 plus change I think we can require CCP to have their consumers turn the cams on. So if a GM sees ANYONE being AFK, mining or not, reboot their machine, terminate their account and finally call in a local CIA operative to completely eliminate any possible future annoyance.

kongking wang
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.20 00:12:00 - [25]
 

first step.. make mining more interesting and less predictable. fact is its so boring its made it easy to macro. if only ccp took up one of the many hundreds of "make mining interesting" ideas then macroing would be harder due to unpredictability and people would actually want to mine because its fun....

no fun and easy = macroing

fun and unpredictable = no macroing

simple as that

Bhattran
Posted - 2010.10.20 05:56:00 - [26]
 

I'm taking another angle on this and want to know why you think macro mining needs to be dealt with like this? Why isn't CCP's current efforts/procedures not enough for you? Last I checked, admittedly it was many months ago, PLEX was cheaper than buying isk, and obviously no issue with having your account targeted to be hacked, or risk of getting banned.



Project 69
Posted - 2010.10.20 07:17:00 - [27]
 

best way would be to make mining AFK so damn unefficient.

this comes back to a minigame or "manual mining laser recalibration" (MMLR).

so basically you make the basic yield of all miners to 10% of it now, but in exchange you give miners the possibility to regulary recalibrate their lasers to get a awesome yield corresponding to 100-120% of the current one.
So if you do recalibrate it, you get 100% for sure, if you get lucky and hit the G-spot of the asteroid, you'll get 120%.
of course the macroers will stay at 10% since they can't recalibrate. (at least for 2 weeks until they adept)


Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2010.10.20 07:58:00 - [28]
 

Any change to mining will not make it any less macro-friendly. Minigames (or lazor calibration) and whatnot would mean macros don't make isk for a week or two, then they solved them faster than any player ever could, thus buffing them.

Same with rats. Bots can easily be combined into botnets (if the developer has at least a fragment of imagination). 20 hulks all assigning drones to one hulk, and that one hulk targets, attacks and melts any and every npc that spawns in the belt within second. Nothing gained again, except some annoyance for real players.

I think you people underestimate computers. They are only as dumb as their programmer, so if the programmer figures out how to solve the minigame/npcs, so can the macro.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2010.10.20 08:54:00 - [29]
 

I would suggest moving all the minable stuff to exploration sites. Poor quality rocks in easy-to-find sites, better quality rocks in harder to find sites. Have enough in the poor quality sites to keep an unbonused Hulk busy for a few cycles, working up to extremely rich sites keeping a hulk busy for two hours.

Just the need to probe down sites would even out the field between humans and macros. No more warping to bookmarks and targeting the closest rock.

Probing should become part of the mining profession, with better organised miners getting benefits from having mobile fleets that are effective at exploiting resources as soon as they are found. There was some comment a while back about the devs not wanting to burden miners with having to scan down belts, my feeling on the matter is that adding the requirement to scan down belts is what will be required as a "barrier to entry" to prevent macros being so successful.


Morpheus Mishima
Caldari
Posted - 2010.10.20 10:04:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Morpheus Mishima on 20/10/2010 10:05:11
OP: How and why exactly does macrominers/ratters/plexers bother you?

Mining was a solo-profession you could have back when EVE was young, nowadays its a large-scale operation requiring loads of people and ships to do properly. If you wish to out-earn the big corps with your 1-5 gang mining crew. You are wrong.


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