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Settledown Yankabitch
Posted - 2010.10.14 00:40:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Settledown Yanka***** on 14/10/2010 00:41:20
Originally by: Vuk Lau
Just as a quick comment. Its only a myth that 0.0 alliances are rich. Some of the yeah, esp the old ones (or the new ones but with old corps) but you would be amazed to realize how many 0.0 alliances even big ones have issues with funding their operations. Even if you think that isk is not an issue for 0.0 conflicts it actually is.

Looking from our bittervet POW loosing several battleships/hacs/caps in a row is maybe not an issue but for a lot of John Doe 0.0 pilots it is. From the other side I agree that there are huge amounts of isk in the game, and CCP is aware of that, but source for that isk is not 0.0, IMHO the broken link in the chain is empire which generates abnormal amount of isk for...lets say minimal isk.
W
Now the balancing problem is that the easiest way should be to lower highsec isk mission income, but that will never happen cause we would have pubbie riots.
From the other hand increasing the costs of living in 0.0 would make even harder for smaller and poorer entities to venture into it.

The biggest problem is that believe it or not the vast of 0.0 is completely unpopulated or unused. There is no easy way to solve that, esp. with current mechanics and i dont see that changed anytime soon. What I proposed and I am sure it would bring more people into 0.0 and would spice things a bit is implementing more 0.0 entry points but from lowsec or even highsec deep into 0.0 which would make some current ****holes and anuses of EVE actually places with much more traffic.




I'm real confused. Seems like you truly believe L4 income is the source of 0.0 issues?

Extreme
Eye of God
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2010.10.14 00:44:00 - [2]
 

Would be nice if you would post a link with that quote of Vuk in order in what context he replied.


/X

Settledown Yankabitch
Posted - 2010.10.14 01:04:00 - [3]
 

For context:

Originally by: Darknesss
Personally I think there are far too many valuable resources in the game. At the moment there is so much money floating around the largest most expensive ships are throw away toys to most alliances - the only real damage losing a titan does is possibly to morale, but thats where the pain ends, and even morale isn't that damaged by a titan loss anymore.

People used to have an incentive to fight because there simply weren't enough resources for everyone to make really good money. Thats all changed now, massive coalitions can split up the resources between dozens of alliances and still make massive profits from moons which require little to no effort to run.

There was a time alliances would go bankrupt in wars, and ops and effort had to be put into replacing ships (remember those mass alliance mining ops stripping belts not because you enjoyed mining but because they were the only way to afford battleships). It used to be crokite belts were the resource to have, difference is there were alot less crokite belts than there are valuable moons now, and big wars were fought over the systems with crokite in, also mining crokite actually required some large scale effort. Moons dont.

With all of this easy isk people are quite content and comfortable to go along with the coalition status quo. Put yourself in any one of the coalition alliances position... would you reset them and stir things up a bit? Reality is even if the majority of the player base wanted to reset eachother and have a big old slug fest they wouldn't because all of them assume (rightly so) that the others would simply gang up on them, kick them out and either give the resources to someone new or take the resources themselves.

Alliances should be put under pressure to exist, it shouldn't be so damned easy. It should cost money and money should be tight. There should be far fewer valuable resources and making money should be something that requires group effort. You may think these changes cant be made now, and you wouldn't see the effects for a long time because of the isk thats already in the market, but eventually alliances wallets would start getting drained, would start to look low and the pressure would be on to replenish the wallet. Naturally when you take away comfort and money fights happen, and anyone from the days when isk was tight will remember it was damned fun, PvP got the adrenaline going not just because it was fun but because it was not easy thing replacing a ship.







Settledown Yankabitch
Posted - 2010.10.14 02:22:00 - [4]
 

I'm just wondering how empire is being scapegoated here? You're assuming the "chain" (presumably, the isk chain) is warped on that end, but how would you classify the "risk," comparison of hardcore mission farming to a similarly hardcore anomaly farm in your own space?

I personally think it's more dangerous to fly an efficient (read as: faction fit at least) mission ship in empire than it is to park a carrier in an NC anomaly chain for hours on end. I also would like to point out, with a reasonable asessment of LP/isk saturation at present, anomaly income nearly doubles the rate of isk/hr being generated.

Furthermore, nullsec is empty because of the politics of power. You cannot possibly be blind to this issue. Sov. mechanics did not make coalitions of 10k players. Deep nullsec stays empty because players can only be added to nullsec as space is made (and offered) to them by exsiting renters. To not be a renter means your TCU will die horribly within days, if not hours.

I suppose the bottom line here is: do you actually view the problems of nullsec (and perhaps eve in general) in this light? If so, can you explain why?

Meelah Ra
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2010.10.14 03:19:00 - [5]
 

Darkness comes across as a moron and vuk gives the appearance of having some understanding of how stuff works. The more isk people have, the more they are willing to fight and not stress about losing ships. The NC situation is because the swarms of n00bs want to have space too and there is safety in numbers. Most people move out of the NC once they have isk and experience, but fresh n00bs are always eager to step into their shoes. I'm talking about the avg NC member when talking about n00bs btw, much of their alliance leadership has always seemed pretty solid.

As long as CCP actively encourages people to form 1 super gigantic blob, the NC will be hard to dislodge. As soon as there are strategic things that can and should be done at the small gang level the NC will suffer as their competence at the individual pilot level has consistently been pretty bad.

RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Black Viper Nomads
Posted - 2010.10.14 08:38:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Vuk Lau

Just as a quick comment. Its only a myth that 0.0 alliances are rich.

Its easy to pontificate and throw random bull**** like this out there when one is easily feeding multiple accounts via alliance tax income, alliance corp income, renter tabs, moon **** etc.

A given corp or alliance is only as rich as the greedy ****ers running it when it comes to nullsec.

Pretty simple really.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.10.14 16:36:00 - [7]
 

I think the point being made is that most alliances are not wealthy. Individuals in the alliances are wealthy. This does not come from moon gold. I've spit those numbers out multiple times in these "waaaa, 0.0 alliances are rich, not fair!" threads.

Basically, it boils down like this: it takes a lot of people in an alliance to hold moons. It also takes a lot of infrastructure with fairly high supply/maintenance costs to maintain a presence in 0.0. An individual can actually make considerably more passive income running R&D agents in high sec than their share of the passive income of moon gold is in a big alliance. Additionally, an individual doesn't have fixed costs running R&D agents. Now, add to that the income from grinding on lvl 4 missions and you're talking good money.

Granted, an individual running plexes in 0.0 will make more than running lvl 4 missions. But the alliance as a whole does not benefit from that other than to retain players who may or may not contribute to defense of the alliance's income sources (moon gold).

Settledown Yankabitch
Posted - 2010.10.14 16:53:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
I think the point being made is that most alliances are not wealthy.

You say that, and yet it's rather obvious that this is not the case. Else the wild and exorbatant spending of large 0.0 blocks would not exist. I don't wonder for a second whether or not there are rich and poor members of these alliances. I'm quite certain the broader spectrum exists. BUT, no alliance, and espcially not a juggernaught coalition like the nC, is making meager income. The bills are paid, the MASSIVE amount of infrastructure is still expanded, and supercaps are still coming out like left and right... and this is all prior to benefit programs which massively out-spend taxation on the common corp member.

Father Thug
Posted - 2010.10.15 01:51:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Father Thug on 15/10/2010 01:59:30
There are alliances, and there are powerblocks, who are organisations of alliances in flexible but hierarchically structured collaboration. There's many things you can say about them, but one thing is pretty simple.

Alliances in 0.0 are rich, unless their leaders are rich. Go over EVE's history, you will find a few examples where there were exceptions (mostly tied to times of great investment or attrition, or times of great stupidity) but overall you'll find it holds true.

Always ask the question from what point of interests a statement or even an opinion comes. Place it also in that context.

Settledown Yankabitch
Posted - 2010.10.15 23:20:00 - [10]
 

Which brings me back to the original question. Why is he bringing up highsec income?

0.0 income needs nerfing, therefor everything else must be scaled back with it? Or is there something else i'm not reading between the lines?

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.10.16 01:09:00 - [11]
 

What's confusing you?

0.0 alliances are not all fabulously wealthy (indeed many simply cannot afford the bills to claim many systems at all, and struggle to pay for what they do hold). More to the point, the costs of paying for sov, an extensive POS network, stations, etc... is very, very expensive. To say nothing of the capital and supercapital fleets that need to be churned out to hold, let alone take, ground.

Added to that is the fact that much of the ISK in the major alliances is concentrated in those sub-groups that bring in heavy income (XT corp in RZR, for instance, is richer than many alliances in the game, due to their industrialism). Most individual pilots in 0.0, however, are not overly wealthy. Losing a battleship, HAC and a recon (or whatever) may be cause for days of ratting/plexing/anomalies just to get back to even.

Contrast that with the incredibly low-risk ability to grind massive amounts of ISK, faction standing and loyalty points in highsec. L4's will never be nerfed, just not going to happen. So instead finding ways to make entering into 0.0 easier is one proposed solution.

Finding a sov system that does what Dominion was supposed to do rather than sov structures that you need a massive fleet to down? Well, that'd be a start.

But Vuk is essentially correct.
Also he should give me ISK.

Settledown Yankabitch
Posted - 2010.10.16 03:55:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
But Vuk is essentially correct.
Also he should give me ISK.


Fair points, but the confusion is where the exchange is between 0.0 and Empire mission runners. I don't consider the bears in empire to be the cause of much of anything (aside from cheap faction gear I buy from them) out in the void. Frankly, I find anomalies out-pace what the most impressive empire bears can boast and I don't even use a carrier for them.

Also, you're quick to point out the amount of isk going into sov upkeep, POS(s), and supercaps, and yet fabulous numbers of all these things are going up around the universe still. Even realtive unknown corps are now the prowd owners of a few super-carriers. From the sound of his post, it seemed as though the correlation was isk faucets in highsec are, essentially, the funding for super-growth in nullsec. I just don't see the link though. The isk flow seems to be inward to empire and not the other way around. Therefor my theory has been that nullsec is much more lucrative than ever before.

ViolenTUK
Gallente
Demolition Men
Posted - 2010.10.16 11:33:00 - [13]
 

You cant lower anyones income and expect them to welcome it. Boosting Income is the what catches players attention. If you want to get someone to go somewhere make it worth their while.

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.10.18 13:39:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Sturmwolke on 18/10/2010 13:53:11
Tbh (w.r.g to Vuk Lau quoted by OP) :

* He stated the problem - many 0.0 alliances have funding issues. Fine, it's perfectly plausible without getting into details of the size/composition and where on the Eve map are these alliances located.

* Then he says there are huge amount of isk in the game and states the source is not 0.0. I would counter this by examining the isk density per population vs system sec (especially after Dominion), not withstanding taking into account the mineral exports coming from 0.0 (especially the Drone regions). That will give a more accurate picture. To debunk the risk argument, deep 0.0 are almost as safe as highsec. If a whole swath of the area is under constant NAP, even more so. You can use the risk argument, but it won't carry much water imo.

* He then states the biggest 0.0 problem is population density. No easy solution, which true. Assuming his proposal (as partial remedy to this problem) has something to do with implementing more 0.0 entry points, then I would have to ask, what problem does it solve? How does he equate population density to the number of entry points (bearing in mind player's playstyle and inclination)? No, if you want to lower the living cost, the direct way is best - lower the sovereignty costs :

a) The ripple effect is self-contained and you can opt for a dynamic scaling. Yes, I'm aware about the difficulties of deep 0.0 alliances in the fringes in moving things to market, hence the dynamic scaling of sovereignty costs say from the center for the universe - Jita. It is as it should be and it's not a real problem - the same way as woods -> village -> towns -> cities -> metropolis (aka Jita).

b) The effect affects everyone in 0.0, as opposed to the static geo-location in the proposed entry points (which may favour certain alliances/power blocks).

Call me paranoid, but the proposal to increase the number of 0.0 entry points may seem reasonable, but it looks to me as a veiled attempt to shorten the logistic ops to high-sec market centres - which if done incorrectly, benefits certain geo locations. Even if it was done correctly, the homogeneity will destroy Eve in the long term. I hope the CCP game designers have enough foresight to recognize that blandness will kill a game, not a matter of if, it's a matter of when.

I do not believe addressing the number of entry points into 0.0 will partly solve the 0.0 population issue. You're more likely to open a new can of worms. Concentrate on the fundamentals instead of the window dressing.

/better clarity

Cousin Tom
Posted - 2010.10.19 03:10:00 - [15]
 

Seems like a fairly obvious dodge OP and while I admire the effort to try and drum up a relavent discussion in this forum, that kind of thing doesn't happen very often. Most posters here are either too invested in the interests of the candidate in question (in Vuk's case, that's a lot of people in the nC) or they're just out to troll.

Fact is, figures from the most recent devblog make it patently obvious that L4 mission runners are not the greatest faucet around and anomalies are probably generating 2/3 or more of the total isk being shelled out by CONCORD for those dead npcs. Is it in-part due to NAP politics and 0.0 regions becoming safer than Motsu? Probably. Is that also related to post-dominion lag? Almost certainly. But, the issue of churn and new player growth in nullsec is much older than that. Dominion was meant as a REFORM for nullsec, but it actually created even more hardened and immovable power blocs than ever before.

The short of it is this: Vuk has a very obvious interest in the longevity of his coalition and you cannot blame him for representing his people. This is merely a prime example of why CCP is quite corret to blatantly ignore the CSM when they see fit. The CSM (like most any representative body) are not in it for us, they are in it for themselves and those whom they are closest to. If an unfounded re-direct to nerf highsec is seen as the most effective way to keep CCP from making incredibly large and over-extended powers in nullsec change how they do business, then that is what he will do.

Vilgan Mazran
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2010.10.19 12:07:00 - [16]
 

They already made dozens (hundreds?) more connections from 0.0 to empire 1.5 years ago. Last time I was stuck in deep drone regions, 50 jumps from anywhere, it took me 3 jumps and 15 minutes of scanning to be back in highsec. Main issue (imo) continues to be the fact that risk/reward of highsec makes no sense. Fix that and you fix lots of issues with this game. Good luck fixing it without a massive outcry from highsec bears tho.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.10.19 17:53:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Settledown Yanka*****
Originally by: Bagehi
I think the point being made is that most alliances are not wealthy.

You say that, and yet it's rather obvious that this is not the case. Else the wild and exorbatant spending of large 0.0 blocks would not exist. I don't wonder for a second whether or not there are rich and poor members of these alliances. I'm quite certain the broader spectrum exists. BUT, no alliance, and espcially not a juggernaught coalition like the nC, is making meager income. The bills are paid, the MASSIVE amount of infrastructure is still expanded, and supercaps are still coming out like left and right... and this is all prior to benefit programs which massively out-spend taxation on the common corp member.


It sounds like you answered the question for yourself. 0.0 alliances might make more than you do, but their fixed and variable costs are significantly higher than yours. In the end, they aren't sitting on a giant pile of cash because it just gets fed into keeping the alliance running.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.21 21:29:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 21/10/2010 21:30:24
Originally by: CCP Chronotis

A freebie, last 24hrs transaction stats for a selection of faucets and sinks - as you can see, Concord is a very generous organisation!



Faucets
* Bounty Prizes 876,039,478,466

Sinks
* Sovereignty Bill 59,332,000,000




About half of the Bounty prizes are ratting/anom/plex, so approximately 440.000.000.000.

Average tax is 10%.

That mean that the different alliances get about 40 bil in taxes on bounties alone against 59 bil in sovereign costs.

Add the refining taxes, mandatory corp/alliance mining and ratting ops, moon goo exactions and reactions and capitals sales and it seem there is a good positive inflow both in the alliances pockets and in those of the single pilot.


TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.10.21 22:38:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 21/10/2010 21:30:24
Originally by: CCP Chronotis

A freebie, last 24hrs transaction stats for a selection of faucets and sinks - as you can see, Concord is a very generous organisation!



Faucets
* Bounty Prizes 876,039,478,466

Sinks
* Sovereignty Bill 59,332,000,000




About half of the Bounty prizes are ratting/anom/plex, so approximately 440.000.000.000.

Average tax is 10%.

That mean that the different alliances get about 40 bil in taxes on bounties alone against 59 bil in sovereign costs.

Add the refining taxes, mandatory corp/alliance mining and ratting ops, moon goo exactions and reactions and capitals sales and it seem there is a good positive inflow both in the alliances pockets and in those of the single pilot.


Assuming the 440bil is only from Sov 0.0 plexes/anoms etc what this shows is that Sov alliances are only just covering their Sov costs before reimbursements etc whilst empire mission runners with no sov bills and minimal PvE losses are doing far better. Of course it isn't as clear cut as that because there are likely more pilots sharing that mission running bounty pie, but it doesn't change the fact that their outgoings are minimal (ammo mostly) compared to 0.0 residents who have to replace lost ships all the time.


Of course some of those anoms are likely NPC 0.0 and lowsec, so the 440bil is likely even less than that (you didn't quote the breakdown there I can't analyse further).


All in all, pretty strong evidence that many 0.0 alliances are not rolling around in isk isn't it Wink

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.10.21 23:38:00 - [20]
 

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.22 10:54:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: TeaDaze

Assuming the 440bil is only from Sov 0.0 plexes/anoms etc what this shows is that Sov alliances are only just covering their Sov costs before reimbursements etc whilst empire mission runners with no sov bills and minimal PvE losses are doing far better. Of course it isn't as clear cut as that because there are likely more pilots sharing that mission running bounty pie, but it doesn't change the fact that their outgoings are minimal (ammo mostly) compared to 0.0 residents who have to replace lost ships all the time.


Of course some of those anoms are likely NPC 0.0 and lowsec, so the 440bil is likely even less than that (you didn't quote the breakdown there I can't analyse further).


All in all, pretty strong evidence that many 0.0 alliances are not rolling around in isk isn't it Wink


If there was a "official" breakdown I would gladly have quoted it.

The "probable" 440 billions day are based on the mission reward payouts for bonus timer and base mission and the general rapport between those values for me and the mission bounties.

If the average mission runners do more vs. faction missions (where there aren't bounties but only tags) or drone missions than me the part of the pie generated by anomalies, complexes and ratting could be higher, while if a large percentage of missions runners have a low level of negotiation (improbable) the mission running part of the pie could be larger (proportionally, for someone with no negotiation skill the bounties have a larger impact than the mission rewards).

So 440 bills is what I consider a reasonable guesstimate. I doubt CCP will be capable of giving better data as the anomalies have deadspace rats like the missions.

Non 0.0 exploration sites have a low impact, while NPC 0.0 ratting and exploration is subject to corp taxes and generally dominated by 0.0 alliances, even if they don't pay sovereignty in those systems.

That are the reasons why I say " alliances get about 40 bil in taxes" and not 44 billions (10% of 440 bills), again a guesstimate, but a reasonable one.

All inclusive it appear that about 2/3 of the sovereignty costs are covered by the taxes on ratting/anom/plexing alone (and the character doing missions in high sec are taxed too and the corp get the isk the same, don't forget that).

Then there are the other 0.0 activities that generate wealth for the corp an the alliance.
Quote:
refining taxes, mandatory corp/alliance mining and ratting ops (with 100% tax), moon goo exactions and reactions and capitals sales


So, no I disagree with you, a decently managed alliance has a lot of isk (both liquid and in assets). Simply most of the alliances tend to downplay the value of the assets they own.

The titans and capitals used by the corp members have a value and unless they have been fully paid back by the user they should not be considered a property of the guy using it. Same thing for the towers, modules, stored minerals, ecc., ecc., ecc.

Saying "alliances haven't hundreds of billions of liquid isk available" don't mean they aren't rich.
It simply mean they do the right thing and use the liquid isk to produce assets that will make them stronger.


TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.10.22 14:18:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Then there are the other 0.0 activities that generate wealth for the corp an the alliance.
Quote:
refining taxes, mandatory corp/alliance mining and ratting ops (with 100% tax), moon goo exactions and reactions and capitals sales


I don't believe that every sov holding alliance does this kind of thing. I know for a fact a lot of them don't Wink

Originally by: Venkul Mul
So, no I disagree with you, a decently managed alliance has a lot of isk (both liquid and in assets). Simply most of the alliances tend to downplay the value of the assets they own.

The numbers roll together carebear alliances living in "safe" Napped space and PvP alliances who don't rat all day and instead lose ships. You can't draw accurate conclusions based on the figures provided. In fact I maintain that it shows a distinct split between Sov 0.0 (who have this huge isk sink) and Empire/NPC regions who don't have that issue.


Originally by: Venkul Mul
The titans and capitals used by the corp members have a value and unless they have been fully paid back by the user they should not be considered a property of the guy using it. Same thing for the towers, modules, stored minerals, ecc., ecc., ecc.

Not all Sov 0.0 alliances have corp funded capitals etc. It isn't possible to draw conclusions along these lines without more info.

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Saying "alliances haven't hundreds of billions of liquid isk available" don't mean they aren't rich.
It simply mean they do the right thing and use the liquid isk to produce assets that will make them stronger.

I disagree. Not all alliances who hold space are using it to make isk etc, some hold it for strategic value and have to find the isk from somewhere else.


Without a better break down of these figures the conclusions are very speculative.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.23 06:08:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 23/10/2010 06:13:36

Originally by: TeaDaze

Without a better break down of these figures the conclusions are very speculative.


Perfectly true, but Vuk position (space holding alliance are poor) is as much speculative has mine.


Originally by: TeaDaze

I disagree. Not all alliances who hold space are using it to make isk etc, some hold it for strategic value and have to find the isk from somewhere else.


If an alliance hold space only for its strategic value there are 2 options:

1) it keep it because it protect its money making area (and so arguably the alliance get a positive wallet for doing that)

2) the alliance get a "positive" return that is not linked to isk (i.e. they are only interested in combat PvP and they don't care because they get their isk another way).

There is the third option: they are incapable of doing 2+2 and continue to spend isk they can't afford to do somethink the don't like, but then they aren't a well managed alliance and will die fast.


Originally by: TeaDaze
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Then there are the other 0.0 activities that generate wealth for the corp an the alliance.

Quote:
refining taxes, mandatory corp/alliance mining and ratting ops (with 100% tax), moon goo exactions and reactions and capitals sales




I don't believe that every sov holding alliance does this kind of thing. I know for a fact a lot of them don't



Honestly, can you give me a reason to keep sovereignty in the 0.0 area if:
- you don't get isk ratting;
- you don't build capitals/supercapitals;
- you don't mine?

You can do it for love of PvP, but I don't see the need for sovereignty in that situation, especially the costly stuff like cynojammer and cynobridges.


Edit:

Yes, they can be holding sovereignty hoping to get the positive isk inflow later, as all the starting alliances/corporations do.
But using only the starting alliances as the metrics for alliance riches is like using drake pilots with a month in game as the metrics for level 4 mission runners.


Vuk Lau
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.10.23 10:36:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Vuk Lau on 23/10/2010 10:38:20
I initially wrote wall of text but then I realized its extremely inconsistent and would proly be boring to majority of you guys. If there are people who are interested I am more then happy to organize the "roundtable" or podcast or whatever we found appropriate for the number of people who are willing to participate in the discussion. Especially cause there was so much stuff going behind the curtains of the New Eden I think its finally time to start unveiling some of them. Anyway I will open a new thread for that.

Back to the topic. If put certain alliances aside where their income if coming mostly tru either hordes of macro pets or just pets, or tru people dumping ****load of RL money into game via RMT and/or GTCs (White Noise as current example), we have alliances whose income is coming from EULA and TOS complied sources.

I am pretty sure that if someone mention rich 0.0 alliances - BoB (IT now) or Morsus Mihi will be the first 2 coming to your mind. I am willing to share with you information that will easily beat any of your arguments about 0.0 being huge isk generator, and 0.0 alliances being filthy rich to the point they are breaking the game.

Anyway as I will be extremely busy in RL for the next couple of days I would appreciate if you guys will drop some ideas how we can organize the "roundtable" maybe for next weekend and if someone wants to step up and to help me directly with it I could even make them on regular basis (maybe biweekly) and I will make sure to invite other alliance leaders to participate as well.

EDIT: sorry for grammar/spelling mistakes I am in between the meetings

Minigin
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.10.24 22:01:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Vuk Lau
Edited by: Vuk Lau on 23/10/2010 10:38:20
I initially wrote wall of text but then I realized its extremely inconsistent and would proly be boring to majority of you guys. If there are people who are interested I am more then happy to organize the "roundtable" or podcast or whatever we found appropriate for the number of people who are willing to participate in the discussion. Especially cause there was so much stuff going behind the curtains of the New Eden I think its finally time to start unveiling some of them. Anyway I will open a new thread for that.

Back to the topic. If put certain alliances aside where their income if coming mostly tru either hordes of macro pets or just pets, or tru people dumping ****load of RL money into game via RMT and/or GTCs (White Noise as current example), we have alliances whose income is coming from EULA and TOS complied sources.

I am pretty sure that if someone mention rich 0.0 alliances - BoB (IT now) or Morsus Mihi will be the first 2 coming to your mind. I am willing to share with you information that will easily beat any of your arguments about 0.0 being huge isk generator, and 0.0 alliances being filthy rich to the point they are breaking the game.

Anyway as I will be extremely busy in RL for the next couple of days I would appreciate if you guys will drop some ideas how we can organize the "roundtable" maybe for next weekend and if someone wants to step up and to help me directly with it I could even make them on regular basis (maybe biweekly) and I will make sure to invite other alliance leaders to participate as well.

EDIT: sorry for grammar/spelling mistakes I am in between the meetings


you are a liar. i have asked you for discussions before and you have turned me down saying i quote: "you are irrelevant"

bottom line is vuk... you either dont have any good ideas on how to fix this game, or you dont want it to change.

my offer still stands if you want to have a chat about this game some time.

Vuk Lau
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.10.25 08:53:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Minigin
Originally by: Vuk Lau
Edited by: Vuk Lau on 23/10/2010 10:38:20
I initially wrote wall of text but then I realized its extremely inconsistent and would proly be boring to majority of you guys. If there are people who are interested I am more then happy to organize the "roundtable" or podcast or whatever we found appropriate for the number of people who are willing to participate in the discussion. Especially cause there was so much stuff going behind the curtains of the New Eden I think its finally time to start unveiling some of them. Anyway I will open a new thread for that.

Back to the topic. If put certain alliances aside where their income if coming mostly tru either hordes of macro pets or just pets, or tru people dumping ****load of RL money into game via RMT and/or GTCs (White Noise as current example), we have alliances whose income is coming from EULA and TOS complied sources.

I am pretty sure that if someone mention rich 0.0 alliances - BoB (IT now) or Morsus Mihi will be the first 2 coming to your mind. I am willing to share with you information that will easily beat any of your arguments about 0.0 being huge isk generator, and 0.0 alliances being filthy rich to the point they are breaking the game.

Anyway as I will be extremely busy in RL for the next couple of days I would appreciate if you guys will drop some ideas how we can organize the "roundtable" maybe for next weekend and if someone wants to step up and to help me directly with it I could even make them on regular basis (maybe biweekly) and I will make sure to invite other alliance leaders to participate as well.

EDIT: sorry for grammar/spelling mistakes I am in between the meetings


you are a liar. i have asked you for discussions before and you have turned me down saying i quote: "you are irrelevant"

bottom line is vuk... you either dont have any good ideas on how to fix this game, or you dont want it to change.

my offer still stands if you want to have a chat about this game some time.



Your trolls are the reason why you are irrelevant to me. The moment I see you are willing to discuss maturely with me anything you want I would be happy to engage you in constructive discussion. Till then...

Also I love how people allow themselves to insult others while being hidden behind their avatars and modems. If you are able to come I would love to meet you on the Fanfest next year.

Double Dee
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.10.25 10:44:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Vuk Lau
Originally by: Minigin
Originally by: Vuk Lau
Edited by: Vuk Lau on 23/10/2010 10:38:20
I initially wrote wall of text but then I realized its extremely inconsistent and would proly be boring to majority of you guys. If there are people who are interested I am more then happy to organize the "roundtable" or podcast or whatever we found appropriate for the number of people who are willing to participate in the discussion. Especially cause there was so much stuff going behind the curtains of the New Eden I think its finally time to start unveiling some of them. Anyway I will open a new thread for that.

Back to the topic. If put certain alliances aside where their income if coming mostly tru either hordes of macro pets or just pets, or tru people dumping ****load of RL money into game via RMT and/or GTCs (White Noise as current example), we have alliances whose income is coming from EULA and TOS complied sources.

I am pretty sure that if someone mention rich 0.0 alliances - BoB (IT now) or Morsus Mihi will be the first 2 coming to your mind. I am willing to share with you information that will easily beat any of your arguments about 0.0 being huge isk generator, and 0.0 alliances being filthy rich to the point they are breaking the game.

Anyway as I will be extremely busy in RL for the next couple of days I would appreciate if you guys will drop some ideas how we can organize the "roundtable" maybe for next weekend and if someone wants to step up and to help me directly with it I could even make them on regular basis (maybe biweekly) and I will make sure to invite other alliance leaders to participate as well.

EDIT: sorry for grammar/spelling mistakes I am in between the meetings


you are a liar. i have asked you for discussions before and you have turned me down saying i quote: "you are irrelevant"

bottom line is vuk... you either dont have any good ideas on how to fix this game, or you dont want it to change.

my offer still stands if you want to have a chat about this game some time.



Your trolls are the reason why you are irrelevant to me. The moment I see you are willing to discuss maturely with me anything you want I would be happy to engage you in constructive discussion. Till then...

Also I love how people allow themselves to insult others while being hidden behind their avatars and modems. If you are able to come I would love to meet you on the Fanfest next year.


holy crap. real life threat from care bear queen to guy who types green. i officially claim this thread is now awsome.

Minigin
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.10.26 10:28:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Vuk Lau
Originally by: Minigin
Originally by: Vuk Lau
Edited by: Vuk Lau on 23/10/2010 10:38:20
I initially wrote wall of text but then I realized its extremely inconsistent and would proly be boring to majority of you guys. If there are people who are interested I am more then happy to organize the "roundtable" or podcast or whatever we found appropriate for the number of people who are willing to participate in the discussion. Especially cause there was so much stuff going behind the curtains of the New Eden I think its finally time to start unveiling some of them. Anyway I will open a new thread for that.

Back to the topic. If put certain alliances aside where their income if coming mostly tru either hordes of macro pets or just pets, or tru people dumping ****load of RL money into game via RMT and/or GTCs (White Noise as current example), we have alliances whose income is coming from EULA and TOS complied sources.

I am pretty sure that if someone mention rich 0.0 alliances - BoB (IT now) or Morsus Mihi will be the first 2 coming to your mind. I am willing to share with you information that will easily beat any of your arguments about 0.0 being huge isk generator, and 0.0 alliances being filthy rich to the point they are breaking the game.

Anyway as I will be extremely busy in RL for the next couple of days I would appreciate if you guys will drop some ideas how we can organize the "roundtable" maybe for next weekend and if someone wants to step up and to help me directly with it I could even make them on regular basis (maybe biweekly) and I will make sure to invite other alliance leaders to participate as well.

EDIT: sorry for grammar/spelling mistakes I am in between the meetings


you are a liar. i have asked you for discussions before and you have turned me down saying i quote: "you are irrelevant"

bottom line is vuk... you either dont have any good ideas on how to fix this game, or you dont want it to change.

my offer still stands if you want to have a chat about this game some time.



Your trolls are the reason why you are irrelevant to me. The moment I see you are willing to discuss maturely with me anything you want I would be happy to engage you in constructive discussion. Till then...

Also I love how people allow themselves to insult others while being hidden behind their avatars and modems. If you are able to come I would love to meet you on the Fanfest next year.


claiming the reason you wont deal with me is trolling while you deal daily with alliances such as goonswarm and test make me believe your issue isnt that im trying to troll you, which i assure you i am not... but with the fact that you dont want to answer the questions im asking.

these are questions such as "what do you think are the biggest problems with this game atm?" and "what ideas do you have about ways of solving these problems?" and "have you made an attempt to put these ideas forward during your many trips to iceland?".

if of course you dont have answers to these... then its fine you can continue pretending that the reason you wont talk to me is because im a troll... if you have good answers to these you shouldnt have a problem talking to me... or any other "trolls".

btw saying the reason your opinions have more weight than i do because you got to iceland irl yearly and i dont are pretty terrible reasons. ill tell you the reasons i havnt gone thus far... i just turned 21 this year, i dont have 4000 dollars to spend flying from australia to iceland so that i can spend 3 days trying to get gms there to wake up and realise whats going on with this game, when you should be doing that as your duty to this community.

i guess being able to just order your countless minions to vote for you in an election they dont actually care about gets you that great sense of hummility where you just ignore the community you are meant to be working for.

Widemouth Deepthroat
Posted - 2010.10.26 18:53:00 - [29]
 

Biggest reason a large 0.0 alliance has isk problems is either the leadership is spending it on their own supercaps, account subs, etc or even worse RMTing tech moon profits.

Scordaf
Failure Assured
Posted - 2010.10.26 22:50:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Minigin
claiming the reason you wont deal with me is trolling while you deal daily with alliances such as goonswarm and test make me believe your issue isnt that im trying to troll you, which i assure you i am not... but with the fact that you dont want to answer the questions im asking.

these are questions such as "what do you think are the biggest problems with this game atm?" and "what ideas do you have about ways of solving these problems?" and "have you made an attempt to put these ideas forward during your many trips to iceland?".

if of course you dont have answers to these... then its fine you can continue pretending that the reason you wont talk to me is because im a troll... if you have good answers to these you shouldnt have a problem talking to me... or any other "trolls".

btw saying the reason your opinions have more weight than i do because you got to iceland irl yearly and i dont are pretty terrible reasons. ill tell you the reasons i havnt gone thus far... i just turned 21 this year, i dont have 4000 dollars to spend flying from australia to iceland so that i can spend 3 days trying to get gms there to wake up and realise whats going on with this game, when you should be doing that as your duty to this community.

i guess being able to just order your countless minions to vote for you in an election they dont actually care about gets you that great sense of hummility where you just ignore the community you are meant to be working for.


Minigin for CSM next year.


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