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Unforgiven Storm
Posted - 2010.12.26 23:23:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: Unforgiven Storm on 27/12/2010 03:40:47
Part 3-4

Another problem: in a lava planet I'm producing robotics, I have 6 extractors: 3 heavy metals, 3 Non-CS Crystals (7000 units raw materials every 30 minutes), then I have 7 processors, 2 for Chiral Structures, 2 for toxic, 2 for consumer electronics and 1 for robotics. Then with the extra power I placed 3 more processors, 1 for precious, 1 for reactive and 1 for mechanical parts. I still had power to place 2 extractors for the base metals (3500 raw every 30 minutes), so I only bring noble metals from another planet and more mechanical parts from another. I make 72 robotics a day. Now, since the controllers take so much power I cannot extract reactive and also having 3 extra processors in a planet is out of the question, I could only add 1 more. Please, please, please balance the power so we can keep the same number of heads now as the number of extractor we had before with the same power consumption.

I made some rude calcutions, with these changes my current production of items a week goes down around 50%, if I'm lucky... then my times spend on PI will double, at least... So basically I can say that the current status of the PI, if deployed like it is, will have a consequence in my current operation: I will stop doing PI because its not going to be profitable anymore (in comparation with other stuff like ratting) and because its going to be even more time consuming than before (and I prefer to spend my time doing PVP than PI). I think CCP is killing it for most of the guys in 0.0, we are here for pvp, we do PI for extra ISK, but we do not want to loose too much time with it. Today it requires very few interaction every week, just like the moons. Once is planned and deployed, we just have to reset the extractors once a day and collect once a week. 150M ISK every week is very good and helps with the ships replacement costs. I was expecting a small change that allows to reset all the extractors of the planet in one click and then jump to the next planet and basically reset 5 planets in less than 1 minute, but this way CCP is clearly making a stand, no more easy planet production anymore, "PVP guys get away from PI, this is only for industrial Guys". That is what CCP is saying?

PS: I was in space, near the planet, I have the new NEO COM active, I went to planetary mode, when I exit it the SHIP round HUD with the shield armor structure, weapons and so on, is gone!

PS2: I exit planetary mode and the extractor control unit surv. window is still open, during my warp, after docking... so it closes when its suppose to be open and remains open when its suppose to close! :-)

To be continued...

Unforgiven Storm
Posted - 2010.12.27 01:14:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: Unforgiven Storm on 27/12/2010 03:45:30

Part 4-4

Another problem: I have the scan mode ON with all the color results and I open the surveying program window, the contents of the scan window disappears until I press the raw material I want in the survey window. Please if I have the scan open and I open the survey window, please pre-select the material also in this window to match the scan selection. If some material was previously selected in the survey window, then change the scan selection to match it.

and one more problem: I have the controller window open, I open the survey window, the previous window closed... I would like to have them both open at the same time please, since I can do it if I go back to the controller and selected it, so if they are not exclusive do not close one when the other opens.

---

My 50c to the Power problem of the controllers:

So assuming the current power settings implemented by ccp are not on purpose to nerf the PI, I would like to suggest the following:

The controllers are basically huge controlling facilities were computer cpu is more important and heads are just basic drills were power is more important than CPU. having this logic in mind, it makes more sense to have the controllers using much more cpu than power right, so why we see the then using 400CPU and 2800Power? This should be the other way around guys.

If we want to keep to current ratios of power usage similar to the ones we had with the extractors we need to review and balance the controllers heads power.

This is my proposal for controller/heads usage:

Controller 2000 CPU 0 Power, Head - 0 CPU and 800 Power

if it doesn't have heads, the controller doesn't needs power since its not working!!!!, just occupies the CPU, it makes sense. These 2000 CPU numbers is based on the maximum possible number of heads (vs. the extractors) assuming each head will use 200 CPU. Then the heads are the ones that use power, each one uses 800, the same has the extractors. and thatís it, my 50c.

If you (CCP) read all my posts, its a sign that at least you care about our opinions even if you donít agree with them and for that small detail, my thanks. For the rest of you guys (players) specially the ones that hate PI, SORRY, SORRY, SORRY... I had nothing to do tonight...

Morpheus Mishima
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.28 09:18:00 - [123]
 

<rant>
Why PI will fail when D514 arrives or sooner:

PI was supposed to be a in-game mini-game which you as a solo player could spend time on between other activities. It was supposed to be a casual thing which only a few true care-bears was supposed to dive into full time. However due to the fact that CCP stopped seeding necessary POS fuels and T2 materials because of this expansion. PI has become a full-time, all-characters, all-corp/alliance 24/7 nightmare OP.

The people that has "suffered" the most from this expansion is the people living in WH's and 0.0 space. Because of the demand for PI goods for manufacturing SOV structures, POS fuel etc.
Now, when I say "suffered", it was meant as a slight sarcastic remark. Because as individuals in a happy blue skies world we 0.0 and WH dwellers would become RICH from this. That is not the case though. PI quickly became a logistics nightmare and mandatory PI duty was introduced. The only alternative was to buy increasingly expensive fuel/parts from empire and haul it.

Many WH and 0.0 corps and alliances rely on producing stuff to keep themselves afloat economically. Capturing and defending space cost ISK. A LOT of ISK. And while PI was supposed to be a good thing in which individual players would get another easy money milking cow. Alliances/corps lost a LOT of control over what goes on in their space.

Put on top of that a lot of planets have PI colonies on them now but is unmanaged. Loads of CC's etc are occupying the best resources on many planets everywhere.

What I don't get is this: Why was PI made to be beneficial to individuals when the ramifications of the supply and demand of the goods hurt alliances and corporations?

Why wasn't space holding alliances who technically "owns" all the planets in a region given access to limit who could setup CC's etc on their planets?

How will this nightmare continue to evolve once D514 is released? How is 0.0 alliances especially supposed to be able to fend for themselves when they do not govern the very planets of their space?

Also, the logistics of PI is a nightmare as it is today considering that you as a individual might hold more than one account and as such have more than one PI character. Setting up a production chain that spans more than one character/account is bad, at best.
</rant>

Dear CCP :) Please think of the children (read: alliances) when you reiterate on the PI game mechanics.

Netan Maybourne
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.12.28 17:49:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Gaia Ma'chello
Co-operative play: Allow me to set my colony access to "personal", "corporate" or "alliance", allowing others to access it. Also allow roads to be built between colonies, so expedited transfers can be used to trade between players. Like trading in a station, both members of the trade need to accept for it to happen.


+1 Having more freedom doing PI with others is a def need.

Rrama Ratamnim
Posted - 2010.12.29 12:14:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Morpheus Mishima
<rant>
Put on top of that a lot of planets have PI colonies on them now but is unmanaged. Loads of CC's etc are occupying the best resources on many planets everywhere.

What I don't get is this: Why was PI made to be beneficial to individuals when the ramifications of the supply and demand of the goods hurt alliances and corporations?



Dude first off, loads of cc's occupying best resources on the planets? unmanaged pi colonys? you realize if they arent extracting they arent affecting your output right? And since nullsec has the highest extraction rates and richest planets, it shouldn't be hard for alliances to get what they need from their alliance corps... as it is you have to be in the alliance to be on the planet, so just tell your corps you need X of Y every month and that they need to deal with getting it from their members.... Ya it would be nice for alliance leadership to be able to get overviews of active CC's on the planets in their territory and eject those that are idiots but thats small potatoes.

The fact taht ex-sov holders have CC's on planet is also kind of moot as what idiot is gonna use PI in hostile territory and then ahve to make cover ops runs to pick up the PI materials vs just setting up elsewhere.

The reason for PI hurting alliances (which it doesnt since most prices for POS stuff in jita is still at or around the same price more or less) is why not? As it is alliances basically have limiteless funds from moon mining especially those stronger alliances that took the best moons and hold the best moons.

JarJar Binks
Posted - 2010.12.29 12:37:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: JarJar Binks on 29/12/2010 12:37:11
Will any Dev grace us with an answer here? It would be very much appreciated.

There's only 20 days to go before whats on sisi is supposed to go live in main game, not much time for we, who are willing, to test whatever changes you are going to do to PI.

JJB.

Quizzicality
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.12.29 20:57:00 - [127]
 

Edited by: Quizzicality on 29/12/2010 22:13:27
I've seen many good ideas. Aside from the uproar over the amount of clicking involved (I run 40 planets at the moment, I know how it feels), here's some things I would like to see:
  • An easier way to set up planets - I recently set up 40 planets with advanced command centers, it took probably 12 hours total. I did it over about a week long period because it was sooooooo tedious. I got to a point where I knew exactly what I was doing and it went faster, but it still took 15-20 minutes to set up 1 planet.

  • Automated Launches - It would be great if launch pads automatically launched materials into space. This could be set on a timer (every day/week/whatever), set to a certain amount of X product (500 consumer electronics = launch), or set to launch automatically when the launch pad reaches maximum capacity. This could possibly be taxed as normal launches are now (wouldn't want to make it TOO easy, that'd just be crazy)

  • POS integration - A new POS module that automatically ships/receives materials to and from the planet's customs office or whatever it's called. This module could have different classifications (basic/advanced/elite) which govern how many command centers can be linked to it, or possibly the number of command centers it supports could directly influence how much CPU/PG of the POS it takes up, though that would make POS planning difficult. I think it would be better to have a set number (IE. elites supports up to 50 planets etc) and it could have a small capacity and need to be linked to a silo as with moon goo.


It should be noted that such automation would decrease the value of these materials as they would be easier to produce. As for the POS structure however, such could balance out the decrease in value of the materials because of the upkeep cost of the POS making it less available. I would highly discourage the ability to link a planet directly to a station, that would just be way too easy and I think it would have a detrimental effect not only on the market, but on the benefits of "less-than-high-sec" space. Why risk 0.0 when I can sit in my station and have all my PI goo delivered to my doorstep.

As for people that say that PI is a logistical nightmare, well yes obviously it can be. I own a POS and I could feasibly produce every material required to run my POS, but that is a logistical nightmare and a waste of my time. Instead I produce 1 product en-masse, transport it to a hub, sell it, and use the proceeds to buy everything that I don't produce. This works out well for 2 reasons. 1.) I VASTLY decrease the time I spend at my planets shuffling things around from point A to point B. I simply take stuff from all my planets at the same time to 1 central storage location (my pos), and when I have enough to warrant the trip, I take it to empire and sell it. 2.) The return trip isn't pointless as I'm actually bringing POS fuel back with me. Obviously the first reason is far better than the second, but you get my point. Why stress yourself out over the endless "OK this goes there and that goes there and there's too much of this over here blah blah blah", I say produce 1 or 2 things and get very good at doing it, and buy the rest. If you're in a corp you can have each person specialize in producing 1 thing, and everybody can put up a sell order for their goods in 1 spot that way you don't have a crap load of oxygen but the robotics are 50 jumps away in jita.

Katarin Savage
Gallente
azinko
Posted - 2010.12.30 04:11:00 - [128]
 

All I hope with PI is that one day, sooner rather than later we get to blow em up and invade them thru DUST, assuming of course DUST514 comes out for the PC (and MAC+linux etc) NOT just for the obsolete consoles!!! (even it means waiting five years!!!)

oh and being able to plant more than one planetary base on a planet for all them marines and exotic dancers I've been saving specifically for walking in stations and DUST514 == perhaps I'll have enuff for an army of DUST514 troopers and their tanks by the time Dust actually comes out??!!Cool

so looking forward to dropping smartbombs and caldari marines on every one's PI stations...

oh and one very good reason why consoles are obsolete: cost of games simple as...

Quizzicality
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.12.31 12:11:00 - [129]
 

Another thing I want to see is the ability to cancel an extraction job in setup without having to cancel EVERYTHING. Right now if I click on the 72 hour extraction job but I want the 23 hour one, I have to cancel everything and start over. Very annoying if I'm more than half way through that particular planet.

Basileus
Posted - 2011.01.05 14:53:00 - [130]
 

1) Save my mouse.

I don't want to spend all my Eve-time randomly clicking until my arm becomes more worn than from bashing the bishop! Creating a 'mini-game' which involves lots of clicks for acceptable rewards is a no-no. Don't go down that path!

2) Don't use PI to push players into PvP.

PVP should be a choice made by players, not by CCP. Don't tell players how they should play the game, damnit! Eve is enough of a gank fest as it is; don't enhance this!

3) Remember about my mouse!

PI really licks hairy monkey balls as it stands. Anything will be an improvement I suppose. Just fix it already.

NO MORE CLICKS!!

Get it?

Transfer point
Posted - 2011.01.05 22:08:00 - [131]
 

Edited by: Transfer point on 05/01/2011 22:16:21

CCP, maybe you should pass on "fixing" PI at this point. I was going to use a different F word.

Originally by: Transfer point


1/group related extractors so I just click once for the entire group
2/automated launch or launch from remote systems to personal or corp hanger
3/corp tab in the planetary customs office so I can move or launch product to there and then the person with the corp role "Planetary customs access" can pick it up (lets face it, a lot of people are doing this to help their corp)


I'd be happy if all you did was options 1 & 2

Soda Stereo
Posted - 2011.01.06 21:07:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Unforgiven Storm
Edited by: Unforgiven Storm on 27/12/2010 03:45:30


---

My 50c to the Power problem of the controllers:

So assuming the current power settings implemented by ccp are not on purpose to nerf the PI, I would like to suggest the following:

The controllers are basically huge controlling facilities were computer cpu is more important and heads are just basic drills were power is more important than CPU. having this logic in mind, it makes more sense to have the controllers using much more cpu than power right, so why we see the then using 400CPU and 2800Power? This should be the other way around guys.

If we want to keep to current ratios of power usage similar to the ones we had with the extractors we need to review and balance the controllers heads power.

This is my proposal for controller/heads usage:

Controller 2000 CPU 0 Power, Head - 0 CPU and 800 Power

if it doesn't have heads, the controller doesn't needs power since its not working!!!!, just occupies the CPU, it makes sense. These 2000 CPU numbers is based on the maximum possible number of heads (vs. the extractors) assuming each head will use 200 CPU. Then the heads are the ones that use power, each one uses 800, the same has the extractors. and thatís it, my 50c.

If you (CCP) read all my posts, its a sign that at least you care about our opinions even if you donít agree with them and for that small detail, my thanks. For the rest of you guys (players) specially the ones that hate PI, SORRY, SORRY, SORRY... I had nothing to do tonight...



I have a fairly new toon and am seriously debating whether to get into PI. If things are left the way they are on the test server with controllers using as much power as they do, it would deter me from doing so, as I'll see it as more effort than it is truly worth.

Please take the quoted idea into consideration.

- Soda

Cool


Slide Quetor
Posted - 2011.01.12 11:31:00 - [133]
 

Please can we have MORE pointless clicking, as clicking = gameplay depth.

The less people doing PI then MORE ISK I will make.

Also, Please Increase the PWR cost of the master extractors, as the LESS produce I generate will mean that PROFIT per item will increase for LESS clicking.

Fidoke Joduty
Posted - 2011.01.14 23:11:00 - [134]
 

Welcome Omen/Marcus! i do not post often on these forums and, after reading multiple pages of jargon/whining, mixed in with some VERY intellectual responses i decided to post.

i have not played on SiSi, as the current setup doesnt hurt me much on its time-demands. i know this could be vastly improved upon but i find it a helpful element as it brings players to the game every other day.

---
i use the 5hour cycle with multiple storage units and only 3 factories (on low-sec PI) with no launchpad as not to fall victim to a Customs Camper. the storage allows me to build up and leave my PI alone for several days at a time.

using one HS manf PI with 4 basics and 2 adv factories (LS feeding some mats), the management time is only 10mins with runs between the two, allowing 2 days of unobserved operation as its reward with each interaction.

I have two WH PI's and they require only one dump-run per month with oversight every other day to every 4 days.

------
as to the current updates/improvements, i have heard several times that higher PI productions could be impacted along with draw-amounts from the new Node-Extraction method, which i hope will be off-set by these new 'program' run times.

??
what is the current depletion/replenishment amounts/times of resources on a planet? i have carefully watched my cycles and have not seen any decrease in either draw or resource scan-size. i believe we should have an Extraction Impact Table, allowing us to see how our draw is affecting the Overall Lifespan of the resource, allowing us a wiser extraction method (if we dont want to drain a resource beyond its replenishment).
??

---
as for the PvP element, i truly believe this should wait until Dust514, as it is KEY to the PvP element. orbital bombardments should be included in this consideration. i would also hope (to deter the Bombardment Method/Lazy) a time constraint for rebuilding should be put upon the Bombarded area (radiation, debris clear-time, etc etc).
---

as for everything else, i look forward to the improvements with patience and breasts heaving in anticipation!

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.15 00:48:00 - [135]
 

Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 15/01/2011 00:51:33
The biggest joke about PI will be, that 2/3 if not more of the colonies will be undefended, because the players have stopped played, or simply do not want to defend them.

(Sure go ahead and destroy my colonies. Be sure to drop a few extra big nukes on the command center for me).

Edit:

It would be much better if players were limited to one colony per character, but with drastically improved management and upgrade features. Something that might require a lot of fine-tuning and is not simply a group of extractors, but the failure has already happened and the mistake was probably done when some manager decided to remove all features that could not be completed within the given timeframe.

Arosth Katsbalger
DISSPACHERS
Posted - 2011.01.20 02:20:00 - [136]
 

Edited by: Arosth Katsbalger on 20/01/2011 02:24:15
:::SIGH:::

The nerf bat is alive and well.......

Oh and is it just me or does anyone else notice FPS just drop out when deploying extraction heads?

tpwh21
Posted - 2011.01.20 12:58:00 - [137]
 

Request in here for some kind of justification/explanation of PI changes + explanation for lack of response on test server thread(s)....

Yasmina Prentice
Posted - 2011.01.20 15:26:00 - [138]
 

Why do we need extractor control units? This efffectivly reduces my PI production by 66.6%. I used to be able to run 6 basic proccesors on a planet, now I can only run 2, so yes the 66.6% reduction is correct. The problem is the extractor control units, they are unneccesary, you could have easily made the command center serve this same function and because it is a command center it just seems to make sence to me that you would have used the command center for this function. I used to do my PI in a WH because it made me a lot more than it would in empire but now with this change I may as well go back to doing PI in empire as I can only produce as much in the WH as I can in Hi Sec Empire. So other than eliminating the clickfest everyday you've done more harm than good.

Teh Minez0r
Posted - 2011.01.21 12:19:00 - [139]
 

tbh, I like the ECUs - what I don't like is the increased power usage due to the excessive base power usage of an ECU while the extractor heads need power aswell. Changes the whole gameplay, PI colonies are completely borked with it meaning you can set up a colony new from the ground while producing one-third less...

TazEnigma
Posted - 2011.01.21 15:45:00 - [140]
 

serious question ... does a DEV still read this ?

Can I post here Bugs ?

Tesla Grass
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.21 20:46:00 - [141]
 

Well I can't quite make sense of you guys saying you are losing production after the update. My own production has now been boosted and I making an extra 144 P3 products a day.
If you are trying to make Robotics from 1 planet, and tbh no idea why you would bother. Then yeah, this update totally shafts you but if you were using all of your 3 or 4 or 5 planets to work together, then this is absolutely brilliant. I can be super accurate with what I extract and can set up my planet to make suit.
Big Thanks to CCP for definately making my PI experience 10x better.
grass

Ice Dragons
Posted - 2011.01.21 23:04:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Tesla Grass
Well I can't quite make sense of you guys saying you are losing production after the update. My own production has now been boosted and I making an extra 144 P3 products a day.
If you are trying to make Robotics from 1 planet, and tbh no idea why you would bother. Then yeah, this update totally shafts you but if you were using all of your 3 or 4 or 5 planets to work together, then this is absolutely brilliant. I can be super accurate with what I extract and can set up my planet to make suit.
Big Thanks to CCP for definately making my PI experience 10x better.
grass


Bwaaaaa haaaa you are dancing in the daiseys now, wait til you mine out them juicy little hot spots and are left holding an empty bag ya Ijit.

Biggest Nerf ever, and you will be loathe to cry about it later now!

Am so glad twits are still selling POS fuel at low ball prices am buying it up as fast as I can!


Darod Zyree
Gallente
Zyree Holding
Posted - 2011.01.23 22:11:00 - [143]
 

Most people just wanted a restart all extractors button.

but noooooooo, we got the ECU and resource spots that make us have to rebuild structures all the time Rolling Eyes


Shakey Volatore
Posted - 2011.01.24 14:32:00 - [144]
 

The new PI system is stupid. People simply wanted less clicking. Instead it was overhauled in such a way as to prevent the method of production many were doing before (simple one-planet production chains), and to limit production in certain instances so there is now even less production overall. Having to move things regularly now makes it -even less- interesting.

CCP you missed the point entirely, and you did it in such a way that even less people will pursue PI now. As a relatively new system to the game, it is important you keep interest in it, especially so considering you removed seeding of many necessary items from the game along with this new system.

PI before changes = so-so, but necessary.
PI after changes = even less fun, but still just as necessary.

Summary = fire the PI guy and start over.


Cristine comings
Caldari
Posted - 2011.01.25 13:04:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Darod Zyree
Most people just wanted a restart all extractors button.

but noooooooo, we got the ECU and resource spots that make us have to rebuild structures all the time Rolling Eyes




well, the clicking feast is fixed ... only 1 or 2 clicks now ...

the excessive power grid usage in the control heads, make it impractical to refine the materials pass P1, when before, people could refine up to at least P2 from 1 planet, this means that people have to spend all day hauling materials P1 to refine in P2 or P3.

now ... here's a concept that might have not reached the grasp of ccp PI developers ... "PI" ... is "NOT FUN" don't make it even worst by limiting the power grid on the extractor heads.

as it is, most people are not interested in PI, and do it as it's direly needed to fuel the pos's or T2 manufacture.
those products are no longer seeded in NPC's and the offer is already scattered ... so, please, see if you can tweak it properly, so that the current needed extractor heads don't prevent us from extracting more than 1 or 2 diferent materials.

a possible solution could pass by the "extractor heads" have 1 pwg and 1 cpu, and the extractors themselves have the powergrid and cpu required.


Candente
Caldari
Posted - 2011.01.25 20:50:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Cristine comings
Originally by: Darod Zyree
Most people just wanted a restart all extractors button.

but noooooooo, we got the ECU and resource spots that make us have to rebuild structures all the time Rolling Eyes




well, the clicking feast is fixed ... only 1 or 2 clicks now ...

the excessive power grid usage in the control heads, make it impractical to refine the materials pass P1, when before, people could refine up to at least P2 from 1 planet, this means that people have to spend all day hauling materials P1 to refine in P2 or P3.

now ... here's a concept that might have not reached the grasp of ccp PI developers ... "PI" ... is "NOT FUN" don't make it even worst by limiting the power grid on the extractor heads.

as it is, most people are not interested in PI, and do it as it's direly needed to fuel the pos's or T2 manufacture.
those products are no longer seeded in NPC's and the offer is already scattered ... so, please, see if you can tweak it properly, so that the current needed extractor heads don't prevent us from extracting more than 1 or 2 diferent materials.

a possible solution could pass by the "extractor heads" have 1 pwg and 1 cpu, and the extractors themselves have the powergrid and cpu required.




technical stuff and numbers aside, I would say it's a good move to further specialize planetary colonies into "production" and "processing" categories. Players either can find high-yield planets to pump out of low level materials or import low level materials to refine them. Or if you put more thoughts into how to lay out your network of colonies, you can do pretty much both.

And this hardly has correlations to being "fun" or not. Obviously this is a game and ideally every part of it should be fun in some sense. Clickfest was not fun; and now it's better. And I can bet more people who manage colonies are more interested into passive income, rather than fueling their PoS. Both re-surveying with Extractor Heads and hauling stuff between planets are the minimal works needed to maintain this passive income... and it looks rather balanced.

Circumstantial Evidence
Posted - 2011.01.25 21:40:00 - [147]
 

Months ago, some people said CCP's promises to address PI in a future expansion were worthless, based on a history of other failed promises and missed expectations. But here we have it: not just a few tweaks, but an overhaul of the system. Some apologies are in order from those naysayers: PI is clearly not an abandoned feature.

It has changed from a mind-and-finger-numbing clickfest, to... a more considered tweak-fest. It is actually interesting to play with now. It should involve choices, and be a game, not an ATM.


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