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CCP Fallout

Posted - 2010.10.13 09:46:00 - [1]

Planetary Interaction will see some changes and refinement in EVE Online: Incursion. CCP Omen's new dev blog details some of what's to come.

Youli Kepain
Posted - 2010.10.13 09:54:00 - [2]

good omen :)

i really like where it's going

Mashie Saldana
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.10.13 09:59:00 - [3]

Edited by: Mashie Saldana on 13/10/2010 10:17:39
Hopefully we will get cheaper goods once the clickfest is gone.

Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2010.10.13 10:04:00 - [4]

Edited by: Chribba on 13/10/2010 10:07:42
Me likes.

edit/and ofc \o/ Welcome Omen! Kladdkaka!

Lycka till!


Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2010.10.13 10:05:00 - [5]

I'm glad you are working on improving things, but this blog isn't very informative. It jsut mentions that there will be some usability tweaking coming, but otherwise it seems like the same package as in initial release. I'm also wondering is there any plans to create features where players can interact(compete/hurt/teamwork) more with each other on the planets or will this remain as a mainly singleplayer feature indefinitely.

Serpents smile
Posted - 2010.10.13 10:15:00 - [6]

Well that was a.... tea spoon full of something.

What about the obnoxious amount of clicking you need to do today, is that minimized by 99% for the next expansion?

Can I trade stoof™ with my neighbor on the same planet?

Can I contract my stoof™ from the orbiting tax office to a corp mate to haul away in his cloaky blockade runner?

When will we be able control the 'people' down in our colony? Ditto for pollution etc. etc all promised last fanfest?

Got some more but lunch is up. Razz

Oh yeah, when oh when will CCP learn to link small picture to big picture with a simple 'open in new window' tag?

Father Thug
Posted - 2010.10.13 10:16:00 - [7]

Edited by: Father Thug on 13/10/2010 10:50:32
Will you be able to select all harvesters and restart with a single friggin click, or multiselect or something.

Seriously. The current click drama is one of the biggest reasons PI is macro'd to beyond silly.

Zanes Shoubje
Posted - 2010.10.13 10:42:00 - [8]

Good stuff blog.

Btw. When are you guys going to allow us to plant Isk trees on the planets. You know those that with one click deposit the isk into my wallet.

Blue Harrier
Posted - 2010.10.13 10:47:00 - [9]

First welcome to Omen and to say so far, from what I have seen on SiSi, you are going in the right direction.

I have had a trial with the new PI interface on SiSi and from this brief outing like what I see.

The interface you see in the main picture is missing some important bits as you will notice the Extractor Heads are overlapped. If you do this on the SiSi interface you will get a red minus percentage (-0.0% etc) to the right of each Head display. This reduces the output of each head by the percentage amount and reduces the total amount extracted.

One would assume (hope?), this means that if someone else placed their extractor heads near or over yours it would have an adverse effect on the output of both extractors and so discourage the practice of other people just following your setup and placing units directly on the same location as yours.

From the brief trials I’ve had it does make the practice of PI extraction and refining more of a ‘spreadsheet’ game and not the click fest we have had up to now. You have to balance extraction rate with time and adjust everything to give the best return on the time and ISK invested. The much longer up to 14 days total time will be a godsend to people having time away from Eve and will allow much more fine tuning for pilots who have intermittent playtime.

So far so good, well done.

Posted - 2010.10.13 10:48:00 - [10]

we already knew this, what we want to know is what we wern't able to do on sisi ; what happen after we have been able to validate the extraction programm ?
will we still need to click everyday/hours on the master extrator ? (well at least it's better than clicking 15 extractors)
what about the strange numbers on sisi ? seems all have been lowered a lot, but as it's bugged...
not enough informations on this blog :P

Silen Boon
Posted - 2010.10.13 11:15:00 - [11]

Anything that reduces the mindless clickfest is good in my book.

Evo YaMing
Posted - 2010.10.13 11:35:00 - [12]

14 days. a that sounds good. Anyway i dont like PI atm, perhaps i will begin to like it in the combination with Dust 514

Miyamoto Uroki
Sarum Industries
Posted - 2010.10.13 11:44:00 - [13]

aha, okay. some useability tweaks. damn needed and kudos for that.

but apart from that... that's it? 6 months of development and first "oh so exciting possibility to use another scrum cycle on an already existant feature to build up on it" and that's all your team can come up with?

Leaves me a little disappointed to be honest. It was said that you were given the possibility to work on an existing feature and evolve it. But background changes to create the bridge to DUST514, that's something your company would have done anyways, that's just doesn't count, sorry.

not good so far..

Illwill Bill
Svea Crusaders
Posted - 2010.10.13 11:50:00 - [14]

Originally by: Chribba

Jag stödjer denna produkt/tjänst helhjärtat, och utan krusiduller.

The changes seem nice too!

Noun Verber
Posted - 2010.10.13 11:53:00 - [15]

Buff Marcus, give him more grid!

Kile Kitmoore
Posted - 2010.10.13 11:58:00 - [16]

Edited by: Kile Kitmoore on 13/10/2010 11:59:43
Will the PI team remain in place after Incursion or move to "other" projects? In EVE talk, "we are done with this feature, off to create another and leave this one behind." Please don't answer "yes" if the team WILL be in place but ONLY focused on the Dust backend.

Welcome to the meat grinder, I mean the forums, CCP Omen.

Poldarn Joaq
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.10.13 12:03:00 - [17]

Welcome CCPOmen.
Good to see that something is happening to PI. It was a brave first step, but now its time to kick some ass with it.

The Dandy KillerS
Posted - 2010.10.13 12:14:00 - [18]

Originally by: Raid'En
not enough informations on this blog :P

Btw, where are districts, population management, player interaction and other stuff CCP sold us during FanFest 2009?
Starting at 1:00:46.

Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.10.13 12:14:00 - [19]

· Upgradable Command Centers will allow players to increase and decrease the CPU/Power capabilities of their colony without having to tear it all down (existing undeployed command centers will be migrated to the new system).

· Only the first Command Center must be bought and hauled in space, after that there is no longer a need to haul command centers in order to upgrade

· Surveying has been radically revamped and will allow players to create extraction programs that span anything from an hour to 14 days!

· Extractors can now be moved when in program creation mode

I like the first point and the end of the the clickfest. The other points are, in my opinion, wasted development time: we don't need more granularity on the cycle time (to increase our efficiency just by some %), and that cool graph is useless.

Moreover, CCP t0rfifrans once said that PI would have some real multiplayer element added in Incursion, I see that this is not going to happen. This was a far more important thing in my opinion.

There are some problem with your prioritization.

Problems of PI that I see and you did nothing to address:
  1. The worst one: It is a singleplayer game in an MMO. This is possibly worse than the clickfest problem. For example,
    • we can't blow stuff up from orbit.
    • We can't trade on the planet surface.
  2. It lacks a lot of depth. I remember CCP t0rfifrans at last fanfest saying "Not a clone of Sim City or civilisation, but has the same great feeling".
    • No population control.
    • Where are the academias t0frifrans told us about? The districts? Pollution?

  3. The problem with PI is that it's only 1.single player 2. bare industry, and industry is a game for a small part of the eve playerbase. Check the QENs for real numbers.

Miner Tech
Posted - 2010.10.13 12:16:00 - [20]

Edited by: Gnulpie on 13/10/2010 12:16:59
Welcome Omen!

Any words on how to get rid of the evil clickfest (which only encourages heavy botting) that PI currently is?

Any news on player-player interaction on PI stuff?

Any news on corporations and not just single players doing PI?

I miss HEAVILY the cooperative/competitive multiplayer stuff in PI. Will we see anything of that kind before DUST 514 hits the masses at some unknown point in time?

Originally by: CCP Omen
The current state of Planetary Interaction

Planetary Interaction is good, but it isn't excellent.

You are joking, right? It is necessary, it is to some degree profitable. But it is NOT good. I know quite some people in EVE and NONE of them enjoys doing PI for the sake of PI, not a single one. How can you say that PI is good?

Please feed us with some shiny stuff. Stuff that maybe takes a while to implement but stuff that will be FUN to do, that is not repeated boring action but interactive stuff with surprising and maybe sometimes unpredictable outcome.

I really had hoped for more. Especially for blueprints for command centers, extractors, launch pads etc. And of course for player-player action.

For EVE Online: Incursion we have dedicated most of our team's resources to integrating player and CSM feedback into our designs.

And what exactly does that mean? What exactly are you integrating?

But despite all my critizism, keep the good stuff going! I know that you guys at CCP can do it! That you can make PI a really fantastic addition to EVE Very Happy

NQX Innovations
Posted - 2010.10.13 12:21:00 - [21]

Decent blog, but really, it only whet the appetite. Far too little information or explanation.

Having said all this, however, I encourage more of it.

Angst IronShard
Sense of Serendipity
Echoes of Nowhere
Posted - 2010.10.13 12:32:00 - [22]

thx for the work and keep it up !

Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2010.10.13 12:36:00 - [23]

So you'll still have to do the same exact clicks everyday in order to keep the extraction going? Gamer nightmare, macroer wet dream. Awesome design right there...

Posted - 2010.10.13 12:54:00 - [24]

Good to see improvements and CSM feedback coming along. Keep up the good work.

amarian arch
Posted - 2010.10.13 13:04:00 - [25]


CCP Tuxford

Posted - 2010.10.13 13:31:00 - [26]

Originally by: Gnulpie

Any words on how to get rid of the evil clickfest (which only encourages heavy botting) that PI currently is?

The clickfest is mainly centered around current extractors. You need to re-survey re-route and all that stuff which actually doesn't have any actual choices in them anyway. The clicking doesn't really take that long (in the grand scheme of things) it's just mind numbingly tedious. Now we no longer have extractors but rather fewer so called extractor control units (ECU) with heads that create your extraction program. I can't really promise you that it will take shorted time than mindlessly clicking stuff but it will be more involved. You'll spend most of your time moving heads around but it will be a mini-game in itself instead of a mindless clicking action. However if you're happy with the program you previously submitted and the resource distribution hasn't changed much then it is a lot fewer clicks.

Another benefits with the new ECUs is that they don't have a fixed cutoff date, you can actually submit a new "program" before the one that is installed runs it's course. so you don't have to kick it at 03.47 on a sunday night.

Originally by: Gnulpie

Any news on player-player interaction on PI stuff?

I can't really comment on it but I can say that we actually did some prototype work before this release. The team didn't really feel comfortable with doing the PvP part and the usability improvements we have done for this release so we opted for focusing on the usability issues and just gently test the water with claiming space... no I mean land.

Originally by: Gnulpie

Any news on corporations and not just single players doing PI?

Originally we always planned for the "industry" part of planetary interaction to not be corporation/alliance and the PvP aspect of it to involve corporations more. I don't belief that plan has changed but since we have only really done the industry part I can understand that you long for news on that front. Sadly it's premature to tell you guys anything.

Originally by: Gnulpie

I miss HEAVILY the cooperative/competitive multiplayer stuff in PI. Will we see anything of that kind before DUST 514 hits the masses at some unknown point in time?

I'm not good with release dates and such. People try to tell me these things but it usually goes in one ear and out the other.

Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.10.13 13:37:00 - [27]

Edited by: Zagdul on 13/10/2010 13:43:22

Welcome to the team.

Thanks for the Blog.

Now, I've got some nice stuff to say, and some mean stuff :). I'll start with the rude/mean stuff first and try to be nice then I'll try to sugar coat it at the end ok?

So, whoever had the job to release PI in the state it is in right now should have that whip you guys have taken to him/her repeatedly. If they enjoy this kind of thing, please be sure to find another form of suitable punishment... i.e. removing beer till it's fixed...etc. You get the point.

The last few months have been HELL, I'm a very frustrated and warn out customer. I share this sentiment with quite a few people in my corporation. So, I can imagine that I am far from the only person and feel that I'd easily be able to speak for the masses when I say, you guys were mean for introducing this. This has been torture.

I have lost a few POS managers because of PI. Fuel costs have gone through the roof. If anything, on release you should have been producing too much stuff, then scale back. As it stands, PI is not producing enough for small/mid sized alliances. It takes a full corporation to run your POS's and while I'm enjoying the group collaboration on this, it has warn out my fellow members.

The main complaints:

  1. Too much clicking

    I have 17 POS's I help to manage. Clicking through 30+ planets a day to just BARELY keep these up has been painful, litterally. I've been on SISI and seen the shots of what people have put up. So far you're getting somewhere. Please hold off on making it more and more complicated. Give us a break for a bit.

  2. "I gotta route all of this, individually? Where's the select all > route button?"

    Yeah... this goes in line with "too much clicking".

  3. Not enough products produced.

    I know you've spoken to a lot of marketing developers and have looked into a lot of what has been happening with current prices vs. old. If you haven't been, start... FAST. Right now, it's super expensive to run a POS and it's killing smaller alliances.

    While the bigger ones may find it easier to adapt, it's pooping on the little guy.

  4. Not enough CPU/PG on the command centers.

    Even Elite centers struggle. I understand wanting to balance out the items you have on a planet vs. how much is produced. However, as it stands, it's over simplified and what you're doing on SISI is over complicated.

    Why not just add a "capacitor" that you are trying to "stabilize" that your processors/extractors use? This way you can put more different types of structures to use by lowering the CPU/PG requirements of items that use the "cap".

  5. Need a way to automate launching or a way to link multiple planets.

    As it stands, producing a few items of high end, or maximizing production and setting up across multiple planets becomes a "how much more work do you wanna do" question. Across multiple planets as it stands requires you babysitting P0 on a minimum 5 hour cycles. This is painful and I need to be in the system to launch the planet poo quite often. Please automate the launch process, even if I have to pay a "tax". This or link the P0 planet to P1 > P2 planet.

OK, hope my complaints seem valid and not just a bunch of tears. So, the good stuff.

Welcome to the CCP Team and grats on your first blog! Sorry to hammer you like this.

THANK YOU FOR THE NEW EXTRACTORS ON SISI :) They seem to be going in the right direction. It's good to see you listening to us.

Many of the UI elements you guys have built for PI have been great. I personally like the accordion style scanning where the menus appear. Or, on the left hand side where you chose your tabs and the likes. Has this code been passed along to the *cough* other UI development team? Like, can we expect to see some of the advancements you've done with the interface into EVE?

Anyway, that's all I have for now, I'm sure I'll think of something I forgot to say and edit this post in a few minutes..

Again, welcome :)

1000 limit

Louis deGuerre
Posted - 2010.10.13 13:39:00 - [28]

Very cautiously optimistic...I never learn Razz

Rage Spear
Republic Military School
Posted - 2010.10.13 13:40:00 - [29]

Really underwhelmed to be honest with you.

Releasing PI in this state was a massive mistake and to see you describe it as "good" is frankly terrifying.

You've had 6 months to take a barely functional abortion of a game mechanic and move it closer to what was originally promised: a fun minigame that would allow for an interesting diversion during some of the quieter times that everyone has in EvE and allow for a little ISK making at the same time.

Instead of which you have taken the ten or so "bare minimum" things that need to happen to make even this crappy, half finished version playable and implemented two or three.

ps. I'm sorry to have to respond to your first dev blog in such a negative way but you must be slightly embarrassed by what you've managed to achieve. I hope you're holding out on us and there will be more awesome in the final release. (PvP, trade, population control, pollution, orbital strikes, something to do after it's been set up beyond just reseting the extractors etc.)

Miner Tech
Posted - 2010.10.13 13:43:00 - [30]

Edited by: Gnulpie on 13/10/2010 13:49:11
Originally by: CCP Tuxford
Originally by: Gnulpie

Any words on how to get rid of the evil clickfest (which only encourages heavy botting) that PI currently is?

You'll spend most of your time moving heads around but it will be a mini-game in itself instead of a mindless clicking action.

That sounds promising! More brains involved, less repetitive strain. Yay!

Minigame sounds really good. If you make it like a real minigame, puzzle like, which needs some good thinking then I am sure everyone (except the botters) will like it much more! Solving some sort of traveling-salesman problem springs to my mind for example. Or knapsack problem. Minigames based around that together with a good graphical interface, that could be fun :-)

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