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NARDAC
Posted - 2010.10.12 17:21:00 - [1]
 

Let's say I want to effect something like turret damage that is subject to stacking penalty.

Let's say I have skip skill at level 5 and ship's bonus is 5% damage per level = 25%.

Let's say I throw on a T2 gyro for 10% damage bonus.

Let's say I add a collision rig for 10% damage bonus.

Let's say I happen to have in a 175 million ISK implant that add 5% damage to turrets.



Does this count as 4 items for the stacking penaly, meaning the implant is really more like 1% diff? Is the ship's built in bonus excluded from the penalty calculation? Implants?

Lurtz
Caldari
Gunrunners and Gamblers
Posted - 2010.10.12 17:27:00 - [2]
 

The ship skill is never penalized.

the Gyro is the first mod at full strenght

rig is at 87% effective, so 8.7% that's easy with these numbers

implant I don't think has a penalty, but someone might say I'm wrong.

if it is it'd be 57% effective


NARDAC
Posted - 2010.10.12 17:38:00 - [3]
 

How about...

Ship has 40% natural resist to explosive. I add a hardener with 50% explosive resist. Is that 90%?

Or does the hardener get hit with stacking penalty? .87*.5= 43% = 83%.

Or, since the ship is lower is it 50% + .87*.4= 85%?


Lurtz
Caldari
Gunrunners and Gamblers
Posted - 2010.10.12 17:57:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: NARDAC
How about...

Ship has 40% natural resist to explosive. I add a hardener with 50% explosive resist. Is that 90%?

Or does the hardener get hit with stacking penalty? .87*.5= 43% = 83%.

Or, since the ship is lower is it 50% + .87*.4= 85%?





base resist 40% 50% hardener resists 50% of the UNRESISTESD damage, so it makes overall 70%

if a 2nd 50% hardener were added it would be 87% effective (43.5%) which would be applied to the remaining 30 unresisted hole 30 x .435 = 13.05%

this with the 70% you had would make overall 83.05%


Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.10.12 23:48:00 - [5]
 

The stack-nerf is applied to attribute MODIFIERS, by modifier type.
Skill-based, ship-based or implant-granted modifiers are exempt from stack-nerfing even if that modifier is stack-nerfable. I think booster (drug) granted modifiers also fit into this category, although I am not 100% sure.

So basically, the only modifiers that figure into stack nerfing calculations are modules, rigs and external effects (gang bonuses or remote effects, be it friendly or hostile).
"One of a kind" modules (AB, MWD, DC) are exempt from the stack-nerf effects, even if those modifiers they apply would normally be subject to stack-nerfing.

Non-stack-nerfable modifiers : those affecting recharge times (capacitor, shield), hitpoint amounts (shield, armor, hull), capacitor amount, cargo space amount, amount of max locked targets, etc
Stack-nerfed modifiers : those affecting speed, agility, weapon rate of fire, per-shot damage, ship resists, armor repair or shield boost amounts per cycle, weapon optimal range, targeting speed, max targeting range, etc

Limdood
Posted - 2010.10.13 13:45:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Limdood on 13/10/2010 13:49:35
Edited by: Limdood on 13/10/2010 13:48:42
in general, the only stacking penalized items on a ship are ones that SAY they are stacking penalized in the description (ie. hardeners, damage mods, etc.....but NOT implants, ship bonuses, or skills).

items that affect a penalized stat that DON'T mention the "stacking penalty" are NOT counted for penalization purposes, and are not penalized (the damage control is the only one of these i can think of at the moment, and possibly the only one that exists - no matter how many hardeners you have, damage control applies its full resistance to the shield and armor).

Basically, if you're not sure, check the description.

*edited to add* a common rule of thumb is no more than 3 mods subject to a stacking penalty. Certain ships will ignore this and go for a 4th mod (usually an omni-resist mod or adamage mod), but that 4th mod is only applying like 27% and it is rare that it is better than a different mod. EG. if you're using 3 lowslot damage mods, you should probably avoid a rig damage mod on top of that.

NARDAC
Posted - 2010.10.13 22:46:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Limdood

useless prattle


Duh. I know to look at the description and I know the rule of thumb 100%, 80%, 30%, why are you wating a fitting on this, are you really this dumb...

In the case of something like turret damage, THAT DOES SAY THERE IS A STACKING PENALTY FOR MULTIPLE ITEMS EFFECTING THE SAME SKILL, which "items" count? Is the ships native bonus #1, making the first module be #2, and an implant #3?

Next time, if you want to avoid looking like an idiot again, perhaps you should actually read the OP instead of just the title.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.10.15 14:41:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 15/10/2010 14:53:12

Originally by: NARDAC
[...]In the case of something like turret damage [...]which "items" count? Is the ships native bonus #1, making the first module be #2, and an implant #3? [...]

Read my post above his carefully, it should have all the info you need.

Clarification+example:

Say you have a ship with resists bonuses on some skill, you have a damage control module, some resists modules, some resists rigs and a gangfleet effect that boosts resists.

The base ship values, the ship skill bonuses and the damage control bonuses apply "as is", no stack-nerfing at all (still, 50% base plus 50% hardener is only 75% resist, not 100%, that's how resists work).
If any resists implants or generic resists skills would exist, they would also apply "as is". There sadly are no implants/skills to boost resists directly.

After than, you take all effect values "given out" from modules, rigs and the fleet effect, and sort them by strength - in case there are any ties, sort ties any way you want, it doesn't matter anyway.
You redo the sorting every time any of the effects changes strength.

The highest value of that "pot" of effects applies "as is".
The second highest effect value applies "at ~87% of strength".
The third at ~57%.
The 4th at ~28%.
etc


P.S. Actual stack-nerf coefficients:
Penality mod for Nth module = 0.5 ^ [ ((N-1) / 2.22292081)^2 ] or, aprox = 0.8691199806 ^ [ (N-1)^2 ]

1 : 1.0000000000
2 : 0.8691199806
3 : 0.5705831430
4 : 0.2829551534
5 : 0.1059926494 <- not good
6 : 0.0299911664 <- already pretty worthless
7 : 0.0064101831 <- practically pointless
8 : 0.0010349205
9 : 0.0001262127
10 : 0.0000116268
11 : 0.0000008090 <- this can only be acheived with 8 mods and 3 rigs, but as you can see it's negligible anyway

(from here, 2nd page, top)

NARDAC
Posted - 2010.10.17 04:01:00 - [9]
 

thank you Akita, your posts have been very helpful.


 

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